CPM S90V Spyderco Military

huugh said:
Actually, if you haven't noticed, free market dictates the situation you are not happy with.
When there is enough demand to make rich alloyed "supersteels" as profitable as what is being offered now then you will have plenty of these. Until then, you will have to pay more.
But you suddenly feel your choice is "limited"... :confused:
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http://dictionary.reference.com/


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
free market
–noun
an economic system in which prices and wages are determined by unrestricted competition between businesses, without government regulation or fear of monopolies.
—Related forms
free-market, adjective
free marketeer, noun

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
cap·i·tal·ism /ˈkæpɪtlˌɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kap-i-tl-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, esp. as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.
[Origin: 1850–55; capital1 + -ism]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.


further:

Capitalism

An economic system based on a free market, open competition, profit motive and private ownership of the means of production. Capitalism encourages private investment and business, compared to a government-controlled economy. Investors in these private companies (i.e. shareholders) also own the firms and are known as capitalists.

Investopedia Commentary

In such a system, individuals and firms have the right to own and use wealth to earn income and to sell and purchase labor for wages with little or no government control. The function of regulating the economy is then achieved mainly through the operation of market forces where prices and profit dictate where and how resources are used and allocated. The U.S. is a capitalistic system.



we (the united states) are not a free market society, we are a capitalist society with some governmental regulations on business practices.

a portion of what businesses do is based on market demand, but another portion is based on profit margins, and the amount of time, effort and manpower required to produce those profit margins. if 10 people want a 600$ knife made of a 100$ worth of steel vs. 1,000 people who want a 200$ knife made of 20$ worth of steel - you will get different results from different companies. it depends on what they want to do.

most production companies will go for the volume over higher priced items. if you build more of an item, you can sell more of it, and you can employ more people to make it. more consumers will have your knife with your name brand in their hands.

if you want a custom knife made of a custom steel - have it custom made. if you want a production company to start making custom knives or start using rare or unmarketed steels, good luck. it probably isn't going to happen.

a large production company does not function or act like a small scale custom production company. you might be able to get bark river or spyderco to do a small run of CPM S125V knives, but I really doubt you'll get kershaw to do it.


with a capitalist large scale production knife company - it is not about the best quality. it is about sales. unmarketed steels don't sell. house hold names do. sometimes quality issues bite companies in the butt because of this, but thats how the market works (imo).
 
The problem I see here is that CPM S30V were represented as a better choice then CPM S60V, which I can doubt. Everybody were doing CPM 440V(S60V) not too far ago - and market was absorbing it very well. Then Crucible stop production of CPM 440V thinking that CPM S90V will be better choice - it is not too much more wear resistant then CPM S60V and much tougher. Again CPM S60V 6 times more wear resistant then CPM S30V while CPM S90V is 8 times more wear resistant - not huge difference. I assume that with some bump in price we may had that time all top models made from CPM S90V, instead we have on top lines CPM S30V which is 6 times less wear resistant then CPM S60V and little less tougher then COM S90V or same.

Of course all this top models does not perform any more as they were with CPM S60V and so ZDP189 made it's dramatic appearance on the top model market. William&Henry switch completely to ZDP189 etc... While according to that CARTA test ZDP189 same as CPM S90V. Only difference is Seki is making it.

So if there is no room in free market for super-steel why ZDP189 is here and doing pretty well? As well as everybody had CPM 440V models 5-10 years ago without too much troubles also.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
Of course all this top models does not perform any more as they were with CPM S60V and so ZDP189 made it's dramatic appearance on the top model market. William&Henry switch completely to ZDP189 etc... While according to that CARTA test ZDP189 same as CPM S90V. Only difference is Seki is making it.

So if there is no room in free market for super-steel why ZDP189 is here and doing pretty well? As well as everybody had CPM 440V models 5-10 years ago without too much troubles also.

Thanks, Vassili.
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because it's marketing made it a worth while venture. whether the test analysis proves the marketing to be true or false is almost irrelevant for the initial market push. when zdp-189 first came out, it was marketed as the hardest production knife steel you could get, with an rc of 65+. that burned its name and presence into the minds of consumers, because it was said to be the best. it was marketed well, and was a worth while venture for some companies like william henry.

like I said, performance isn't the main concentration with the high production volume companies, its what will sell. if a steel is able to be marketed in a way that makes it appear worth the money, it becomes worth while because a company can expect to be able to sell that particular steel in large quantities.

s30v was marketed as "being designed specifically for the knife industry", and that was novel, so the marketing was enough that it seemed like a worth while venture to use it.

if a company could push CPM S90V, CPM S125V or CPM M4 hard enough with some kind of marketing that made it sound novel or way above the pack of other steels, it might be worth it for them to switch over part of their production line. But if all they have to go on is "this steal has been around for a long time, it costs a lot more to make knives out of it, but you get a 20% performance increase in toughness and abrasion resistance" - chances are it's not going to sell much better then the cheaper steals, and it won't be worth developing production protocol (heat treatment etc) to accommodate its entry into the production lines.

marketing is everything, and performance is only a selling point to the masses if it's marketed well enough for them to see it. otherwise the old standby's of cheaper cost for reletively comparable performance will win out.

if your going to sell a luxury item for hundreds of dollars more, it's gotta look like the best. it cant just be the best.

and marketing is expensive :p.


Reading through dpreview's forums will give you a good example of a similar situation. digital camera sensors in compact cameras SUCK right now. they have atrocious noise levels and the resolution consistently gets worse as companies pack more and more pixels into the same chip size. buffer sizes and shot to shot performance continue to be stagnant and aren't getting much better.

so whats improving? pixel count and zoom distance. the megapixel push is actually counter productive, because at the level they are at using the technology they are putting into the compact digicams - the more pixels you cram in there the worse the quality.

so why??? your getting worse and worse quality but still paying more for the newer model. because numbers sell, and having the "best" - even if its only perceived as the best - model on the market for any given number set (zoom, megapixels, iso) catches the consumers eye and draws them to buy your model.



but you read over and over and over and over again "PLEASE stop adding megapixels, just give me a higher quality lens, less in camera processing, and a higher quality larger pixel pitch image sensor, EVEN IF I have to make due with 6 megapixels instead of 12". camera companies, just like high production volume knife manufacturers are not selling to connesuiers looking for the true best in performance, they are selling to the masses, because the masses buy more products.

a production company is out to sell large quantities of knives. not make the best performing knife. for that, you need small run production companies, or custom makers.
 
Exactly, and so I think finally CPM S90V time came and I wish to see more top modela out of this real super steel as well as next CPM S125V - see CATRA test results:

440C 360-400
VG10 500-510
S30V 550-580
S90V 750
ZDP 189 750
S125V 1200

As I remember everybody in the knife world were saying 5 years ago that CPM S30V is the best of the best way ahead of CPM 440V - it was only Crucible who sad that CPM S90V is real deal and for generic cuttlery and big knives the came up with CPM S30V. I hope CPM S30V will be last over-promoted steel and if someone position steel as a super-steel it will be actually about performance.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Crucible stopped producing S60V because no one bought it, not because of any weird conspiracy theory about S30V and S90V.
 
HoB said:
Spyderco owns a CATRA machine, but Sal stated years ago that in order to avoid strive with other companies they don't publish their results, just as they don't publish lock strength test results.
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I do not think this is right. Steel performance should not be secret. Knife companies should not hide this from us and I think they actually should promote steel based on this and other test results.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Larrin said:
Crucible stopped producing S60V because no one bought it, not because of any weird conspiracy theory about S30V and S90V.
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I doubt it. At that point too many companies and custom makers have top models with this steel, so I do not think that this was a reason. I think with CPM S90V being better in wear resistance as well as toughness they think that there is no room for CM S60V in same price range, and it was pretty logical to have entry level 8 times less wear resistant and much cheaper CPM S30V. But CPM S90V was ignored and so they lost this market to ZDP-189 because CPM S30V can not really compete with real super steel (see CATRA results). It is CPM S90V (which was available way before ZDP-189).

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I've had D2, ZDP-189, S30V, and S60V blades chip on me, none of them are super, imo. Increased wear resistance just means its gonna take me a few extra minutes to remove the damage my edges sometimes suffer. Wear resistance is of lower priority for me because I can damage an edge in one cut, depending on what I'm doing.
 
nozh2002 said:
I doubt it. At that point too many companies and custom makers have top models with this steel, so I do not think that this was a reason. I think with CPM S90V being better in wear resistance as well as toughness they think that there is no room for CM S60V in same price range, and it was pretty logical to have entry level 8 times less wear resistant and much cheaper CPM S30V. But CPM S90V was ignored and so they lost this market to ZDP-189 because CPM S30V can not really compete with real super steel (see CATRA results). It is CPM S90V (which was available way before ZDP-189).

Thanks, Vassili.
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This is indeed true. S60 was dropped from use because of very poor reception by the market. There simply weren't enough end users competent enough to take advantage of the performance of the S60V steel, and S90V was anticipated to be at least the same or possibly worse. Worse still, production capabilities for manufacturing knives in this steel required cost increases that the market simply couldn't and wouldn't support. Many production and custom makers will support these contentions. Just because you think they should doesn't mean its gonna happen, however well intentioned you might be.

NJ
 
I doubt that knife industry is the major customer for Crucible. I think it is a little fraction of their business and with no benefit from CPM S60V over CPM S90V only customer for it was knife industry all the real consumers switched to CPM S90V and this is why they drop it. I remember seeing on the web some knifemakers alerts, some seminars at some knife shows or something and my impression was that this caught them by surprise.

I doubt that like nobody buy CPM 440V Military and for this reason Spyderco force Crucible to came up with CPM S30V to swithch to it right away. I think if CPM S60V had no customers they most likely switch to something else not right away to CPM S30V. I actually think that they made first new model with it before switch all CPM 440V models to it. And I doubt Kershaw has problems selling Avalanches and Boas.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Sal says they switched because S30V tested better
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3645415&postcount=11

both he and Phil Wilson say that S60V got too brittle taken above ~56
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3904146&postcount=164

and a little on the production costs
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1241506&postcount=16
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3781194&postcount=20

will S90V take off? maybe, I'm still waiting for ZDP-189 to, it has very limited use compared to the other flavors of the month.
 
Excellent links. Thanks!

Now CATRA results for CPM S60V may clear this matter. But for sure they switch to CPM S30V not because nobody was buying CPM S60V.

So finally they learn how to produce CPM S90V (found right wheels) I hope they will find the way to process CPM S125V too eventually.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Hardheart, thanks for posting those links. I was the "joe" Sal was talking to but as I can't use the search feature I couldn't even find that thread to bring back up.

By the way, I tried an R2 knife from a well known knifemaker in Japan. There were deep pits under the finish and the tip is so fragile it will eventually break off merely putting it back in the form fitted leather sheath. Not the toughest stuff around, and not cheap either.

Vassili, Phil Wilson will make you a custom in S125V if you want. He's real good as you probably know, and has an excellent reputation. A fine , and very knowledgeable gentleman. His website: http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/

Phil has made S125V knives before, and IIRC, has some in stock. He is well known for his work in other heavyweights such as 10V. Joe
 
Few images:

Spyderco_Military_CF_S90V-001.jpg


Spyderco_Military_CF_S90V-002.jpg


It is exactly the same as BG-42 Military (bit more expensve) only difference is that CPM S90V label.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
My next steel will be INFI. Nothing really has out cut my custom A-2 tool steel knife. INFI is the only logical way for me to go. Do you own INFI? Thanks.
 
Lycosa said:
My next steel will be INFI. Nothing really has out cut my custom A-2 tool steel knife. INFI is the only logical way for me to go. Do you own INFI? Thanks.
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INFI is one of my favorite steel and I have quite a bit of GameWardens, Active Duties, Meaner Streets and Badger Attacks in my collection. Results of noss4 testing is very impressive and it is very established brand with excellent production quality etc.

I like to see Game Wardens with steels like ZDP189 or CPM S125V - great knife for leather work etc, but for some reason very idea to use something other then INFI seems to be so heretic for Busse.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Nozh---Do you have a thin stock satin, red G-10 GW for me? Thanks!!
 
It's kinda funny, all I remember reading about S30V back in 2002 (or whenever it became widely used) was that it was chippy and didn't hold an edge as well as spec sheets said it should.

My opinion is that pocket knives usually loose their edge before they break, so edge holding is the first priority. As long as it's usably tough it's good enough.
If there is better steel I want my favorite knife to use it.
Good thing I like Spyderco.
 
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