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CPM154 and the future
- Thread starter RevDevil
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Is it reasonable to expect HRc 62 from production blade? The company I am working for has several H/T contractors. These are production companies and have state of the art equipment. Large furnaces, where they process thousands of pieces at the same time. In every batch of material, even from best of them I can see at least couple points variation within 30 samples. Will targeting 62 cause a risk to have some blades at 63 or 64? I know that 60 may be not optimal, but safe without negative effects. How blades at 63-64 will perform? Will they be too brittle?
+1
Yes(whispers-"with four way clip")!
Ankerson
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Can you, please explain a little more?
Ankerson
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Depends on who is doing the heat treating, the equipment, batch size, target hardness range.
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This is understandable. Do you have an idea about batch size, which would be typical for good quality production company? Few thousands blades? Hundreds? Few dozens?
Ankerson
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I say anything but a para 2. It's been sprinted more than any Spyderco I can think of. I like the Yojimbo, Millie, FFG manix or Ffg native ideas.
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I thought it was pretty clear actually, short and concise. I don't know how many knives you've used with CPM-154, but I've used about 4 : Custom AD10, Kershaw Blur (2), and a Strider SMF. I was impressed by the results of the knife and simply asked Sal if there was any chance Spyderco would be using it in the future. I can't possibly see how you could be confused by that.
I own a ton of 154CM knives, from Emerson, Benchmade, Spyderco, Kershaw/ZT, Hogue, etc. I don't recall ever seeing a knife from Spyderco in CPM-154. The knife in the other thread you are referring to does not appeal to me in any way at all. In my view, it's nothing I am interested in buying or owning. I you like it, by all means buy it. I cN't say that I will be able to tell the difference, but like many people here, I love steel.
That wasn't a hint, it was a fact. However, when has something like that stood in the way of Spyderco releasing a run of a specific model with a specific steel? An example you might be familiar with is the Manix2 lightweight with CTS-BD1. That particular steel is not close to the performance of S30V, but then again the knife continues to be produced. Why? My guess is variety. I can't say I share your amusement, I'm not seeing it. What I do see is you reading a little too far into something without the full benefit of paying attention. No where did I trash anything, you really need to reread that section. If you have something specific to tell me, please email me I'd love to read it. My apologies if I somehow confused you or said something you find distasteful.
Whoa, no need to get so defensive. I explained why I don't see the extreme desire for CPM154. Go back and read again if need be. I'm just surprised at the overwhelming desire for CPM154 when 154CM gets trashed on a regular basis and it is the same alloy steel. You just happened to do this the day before you posted this thread so I pointed it out. It sounded to me like the main reason you didn't want the knife was because of the use of 154CM?
I'm not hopping on a pogo stick waiting to get one of those Benchmades. In fact I doubt I will ever hold one. I'm just curious about the steel and the way people act. Might as well ask Sal to upgrade their heat treating protocols and do smaller batch sizes. In my experience this will have a much more profound effect than changing from an ingot to a first generation particle steel of the same alloy. I too have tried CPM154 in a Kershaw and did not notice a difference between it and 154CM. Not in use or sharpening. No I can't tell the difference in every steel, but I can if there is a substantial difference. Which is my point, there is not a substantial difference between the two. It is also why I differentiated between custom knives and production. I would expect to tell a difference with a smaller batch size custom heat treat like in the AD10 or Strider. But I would be surprised to hear you could tell a difference between the Kershaw and any other 154CM knife.
I'm not attacking anyone and maybe the use of the word "amusing" was wrong. Should have said I find it interesting. And like I said if it is wanted because it is a different steel I can understand that. But if it is wanted because it is going to be a spectacular steel, then I don't see why 154CM gets trashed so often. Surely you can understand that? Regardless, I didn't post to argue and since this is a request thread I will leave it alone. I hope everyone gets what they want. That would be pretty cool and I'm sure Spyderco can make it happen more than most companies.
I read your link and didn't see anything that showed overwhelming evidence CPM154 is better than other steels.
Ankerson
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They aren't the same steel, and that's were the confusion comes in someone looking at the alloy content comparing CPM 154 and 154CM.
Just going to the PM process alone will make a difference and then taking into count the alloys that Crucible adds for grain refinement in their PM steels..... That isn't on the data sheets......
Don't think anyone is bashing 154CM, it's still used by a lot of custom makers and it will really perform with a good HT.
Take into count that some production companies are on the Conservative side when it comes to what hardness range they use while others go out on the edge more for more performance.
Also some do a proper CYRO treatment (-300F for 24 hours) while others just do a quick sub zero at a higher temp, it all makes a difference.
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Is there a new data sheet showing a deliberate quantity of vanadium in CPM154? Scott Devanna (Crucible, and after the company breakup, SBI) stated that any V was only residual. Maybe there is some confusion with RWL34, which has advertised 0.2%. It's been a few years since I've bought any customs in CPM154, so I haven't looked into it lately.
For the ease of sharpening/polishing, improved heat treat response, and increased impact toughness, CPM154 would be an upgrade. I wouldn't care to pay much more for a switch, though, I'd rather just go with S30V. No, it doesn't have quite as high a working hardness range, but neither does S60V or S90V. Bumping the hardness of 154CM to 61 would also help, but the steel needs to maintain decent corrosion resistance, so secondary hardening may or may not be a good idea.
For the ease of sharpening/polishing, improved heat treat response, and increased impact toughness, CPM154 would be an upgrade. I wouldn't care to pay much more for a switch, though, I'd rather just go with S30V. No, it doesn't have quite as high a working hardness range, but neither does S60V or S90V. Bumping the hardness of 154CM to 61 would also help, but the steel needs to maintain decent corrosion resistance, so secondary hardening may or may not be a good idea.
Ankerson
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Heard through the grapevine they added some Vanadium for grain refinement, the actual percentage is unknown though.
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Maybe so, I think the residual was rumored to be up to 0.2-0.4% in a melt anyway, so maybe they stuck with it as part of the nominal composition.
I think the knife makers have at least stopped using the term 154V, all they were doing was confusing people even more than when they were posting CPM154CM.
I think the knife makers have at least stopped using the term 154V, all they were doing was confusing people even more than when they were posting CPM154CM.
Ankerson
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Yeah I hear you, I can't stand when I hear or read CPM154CM, it just drives me up the wall if you know what I mean.
All I know is CPM 154 turned out to be a lot better steel than even Crucible thought it would be and the performance is excellent taking into count the alloy content.
And the hardness range that it can be used in is great, that 60-62+ range.
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as i understand it, it takes longer to temper down a steel than leaving it at the high scale.
I could definitely go for a Military with a four way clip. The lack of carry options is really the only reason I don't have one. No one seemed to jump on board when I first suggested it but I'm going to renew my request for silver twill scales and DLC coating on the blade and hardware. I could go for blue twill with an uncoated blade and polished hardware though too. What can I say, I like the woven carbon fiber look but I'm sick of black scales.