CPMS30V only 45% > than 420HC

You are right that the supersteels are not super in comparison to many they've replaced in the same ratio that superman was super in comparison to regular men, but the simple fact is that in any kind of industry, 45% is a massive difference. Now again, I would like to point out that this claim by Cabelas is such a blanket statement, made completely without reference to the types/conditions of cutting involved; hence it is fairy meaningless. Actually no, it's not even fairly, it's just meaningless. Nevertheless, let's assume that it was correct just to pursue this particular point.

J.C. has already put up a bunch of excellent examples here, but I'll try a few more.

Would you seriously argue that a 4.0 grade point average is hardly better than a 2.75? I doubt your professors would agree---nor the people looking to hire you.

Would you believe that a restaurant that received a 95% grade from a health inspector to be hardly cleaner than one which rated 65%?

If you require hundred percent or greater advantages before you'll acknowledge superiority then your definition of progress will be a very frustrating one in your life. If a manufacturer, business owner, inventor etc. can find ways to make 10% improvements on what the competition is putting out they're absolutely ecstatic. World class athletes don't look for being half-again as fast as the current record holders; they hope that through serious dedication and hard work that they MIGHT be able to beat them buy a few feet/inches/tenths of a second.

You're free to have your own opinions, of course, but claiming that a 45% difference is a small one...well, you certainly will have the distinction of a unique point of view.
 
Silverdagger said:
You're point is well taken. I do like seeing the cold hard figures, and this is the first time I've seen them, as I would think is reported by Buck, a knifemaker with a fine reputation. All other times, I've seen one has this percentage of this or that and but the results are not quantified.
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Dude, don't you get it? That figure means about as much as a price tag that says "45". Nothing. :rolleyes:

You guys can argue all you want about how much difference 45% makes (A lot IMHO), but it won't make a difference if there talking about someone smashing the knives against a metal rod.
 
Michael Lovett said:
Having used both, I would say that the 45% is VERY suspect. But even at that, we strive to produce the best product we can. Any increase is worth while. http://www.kcjonesracing.com/cannonball.html
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Do you mean to say that you don't even think it is a 45% increase? That's the way I read it. I take it you are a knifemaker and probably more informed than many of the rest of the posters, myself included.
 
t1mpani said:
Would you seriously argue that a 4.0 grade point average is hardly better than a 2.75? I doubt your professors would agree---nor the people looking to hire you.

Would you believe that a restaurant that received a 95% grade from a health inspector to be hardly cleaner than one which rated 65%?
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OOO, great examples!:thumbup:

Another one:
If a baby is born 45% below average in bodyweight, he's in intensive care!

Also, if you lost nearly half your income where would you be?

If you lie in court nearly half the time you're either a highly-paid lawyer or your on your way to jail (sometimes both!):D
 
First of all I would like to apologize as I didnt meen troll so much as I ment to poke fun at a few verry pointed opinions about the build quality of spyderco knives in comparison to buck. When you want me to take you seriously about how you feel about the price of s30v compared to 420hc you probably shouldnt say things like "new age cheap plastic".
Thats all I ment wasn't atempting to attack anyone, funny thing is i did have two extra cups of coffee today so maybe it was the coffee...
 
Having NOTHING better to do, I will add that I have a Buck 110 in 420hc and in S30V. I use them to carve up deer, etc. I have several Bucks in 420hc. My experience in cutting hair, etc on a deer is WAY more than 45% difference. Further, the 420hc gets really dull where as the S30V (I have several knives in S30V) stays moderately sharp (usable) forever. I stopped using the 420hc along time ago. At the other end of steels, I have three BG42 SOG field knives that have remained shaving sharp thru a lot of heavy use. Heat treatment can really change how a steel preforms. I have several Bark Rivers in 12c27 stainless that are really quite impressive.
Ron Athay
 
sepia said:
First of all I would like to apologize as I didnt meen troll so much as I ment to poke fun at a few verry pointed opinions about the build quality of spyderco knives in comparison to buck. When you want me to take you seriously about how you feel about the price of s30v compared to 420hc you probably shouldnt say things like "new age cheap plastic".
Thats all I ment wasn't atempting to attack anyone, funny thing is i did have two extra cups of coffee today so maybe it was the coffee...
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To clarify, I didn't have any problem with your tone at all earlier...it was just the opportunity to make a 'sepia tone' comment. And the longer this thread goes on, the more I'm thinking you were right anyway. ;)
 
Call me a troll, but it's the only time I've ever seen figures on one steel versus the other, as far as lasting cutting edge/edge retention.

Normally it's 440A = Buck 420HC = AUS6 or something. We have been given a hard number of 45%, which is much more precise. Accurate? I don't know.

Normally it's one has this much carbon and that much vanadium and this much whatever.

As you all have noticed, I'm no chemist. But I do understand what 45% means and I do understand cost versus return. The Leek, for example costs $45 roughly with 440 A. The same knife with S30V costs $90.

One poster mentioned and poked fun that you can buy 50 china knifes or whatever and come out better. I used a Kershaw Leek as an example for goodness sakes. Either knife is good. One costs $45. The other cost $90. Is 45% better worth double the cost of the knife?

I do understand some of you doubting the 45%, but I don't see anyone refuting Buck or Cabelas and giving your own number. I appreciate the "cleaned this many deer" example, but it is rather vague.

Maybe someone from Buck or Cabelas or a chemist or metallugist can weigh in. Is this 45% accurate? The board seems to doubt it. If this is not accurate is Cabelas and Buck doing false advertising in terms of edge retention? Was a mistake made? What gives?

To me 45% better edge retention means it will hold an edge that much longer. Maybe that's a wrong way of looking at it.
 
I refuse--once every two days is plenty as I only get 45% dirtier. ;)
 
45% greater edge retention when cutting...? When cutting what?

Try actually using a knife for something other than cutting sheets of paper. Cut zipties, pallet straps, heavy cardboard, leather or wood and see which you would then prefer.

You're assuming that increased edge retention means more cuts. There's no way to put a quantity on edge retention. 100 cuts or 145 cuts... those are meaningless numbers. An increase in edge retention means that the knife won't dull and begin to slip or bind while cutting. A sharper knife is always a safer knife and I'd much prefer edge retention over a broken knife or lost fingers.

Buck is my favorite production knife maker, and their 420HC is an excellent, usable steel (owning to an exceptional heat treat). It'll take a beating and hone to a razor edge and yes it will cut all day if all you're doing is slicing paper. But it's a soft steel and soft steels don't retain their edge.

I have Bucks in the old 440C, 425M, 420HC and S30V. I actually prefer the old 440C, but the S30V is also great.

If all you need a knife for is opening the mail, then no, the added edge retention of S30V won't justify the added cost. But for knives that actually get used the added edge retention means less time spent sharpening.
 
Heardheart thanks. I'll read up.

Pychopomp, I appreciate your post. Maybe I'm quantifying it wrong. To me, if I clean 100 catfish with 420HC I could clean 145 with S30V. That is what I thought edge retention at 45% over would mean.

Or if I could clean 2 deer with a 420 I could clean almost 3 with S30V.


Maybe I spoke of cutting paper. Even if I did, if I cut it all day when the 420HC plays out, I would think I could cut all day and half the next with S30V.

Or if I could cut one nail with a 420HC, I could cut 1.45 nails with the S30V.


I will read hardhearts stuff. Maybe it has a direct comparison.
 
I'm not sure who these guys are, but apparently they did the testing and made the claim.

"""""""""""""" Our field testing and independent C.A.T.R.A. (Cutlery Allied Trade Research Association) tests prove these knives will outperform those crafted with other blade metals.???????????????
 
Silverdagger said:
Pychopomp, I appreciate your post. Maybe I'm quantifying it wrong. To me, if I clean 100 catfish with 420HC I could clean 145 with S30V. That is what I thought edge retention at 45% over would mean.
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Think about it in terms of durability and the properties of the steel that make it more or less durable. 420HC is a very durable steel, it will take a beating and be just fine... it may get a few dings here and there but it isn't prone to fracturing and breaking. Like I said in my first post, it's a softer more flexible steel and therefore better suited to impact. But being a softer steel, the edge will tend to roll over more quickly while being less wear resistant and easier to sharpen.

S30V is a harder steel and less durable when it comes to impact and more prone to chipping and fracturing. But being a harder steel it's more wear resistant so the edge retention is greater albeit more difficult to sharpen.

A proper heat treat will lessen (for lack of a better word, but not negate) the negative aspects of all steels and increase the positive aspects. Some steels are better suited for certain tasks.

Would you rather stop and sharpen a knife more often, or less often?

Again, I'm not knocking 420HC. When properly heat treated it's a fine steel for every day tasks.
 
Crucible gives a 45% increase in CATRA testing for S30V over 440C, not 420HC.

http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash/dsS30Vv4b.pdf


Based on my own limited experience, at least as far as light utility and food prep go, I would expect about 2 to 3 times longer edge holding with S30V than from 420HC and as Ron Athay mentioned, S30V seems to hold a usably sharp edge longer than that, but I don’t like to get S30V too dull because it can be a bear to re-profile by hand.




Frank
 
Silverdagger said:
bla bla bla
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listen dude 420 is inferior in almost all aspects of a knifeblade except toughness but even when comparing toughness there are much better alternatives, 420 sucks nothing strange about that, but you can still cut stuff with it. vic´s steel sucks too, but its still usable. this is a non issue. if yo want to buy 420 steel do it! but most of us here likes higher performance. anyway only 45% give me a fukn break, its like night and day buddy
 
frank k said:
Crucible gives a 45% increase in CATRA testing for S30V over 440C, not 420HC.

http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash/dsS30Vv4b.pdf


Based on my own limited experience, at least as far as light utility and food prep go, I would expect about 2 to 3 times longer edge holding with S30V than from 420HC and as Ron Athay mentioned, S30V seems to hold a usably sharp edge longer than that, but I don’t like to get S30V too dull because it can be a bear to re-profile by hand.




Frank
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Ah ha, so it was a misprint. I've taken a lot of abuse for a misprint. Thanks for your help and find.

Interesting.
 
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