CRK knockoffs - buyers beware

[batosai117]

Hey everybody, since a lot of us don't normally check the sticky's I thought I would sort of re-hash what was just posted by CRK:

All,

First of all, I’d like to thank everyone that has pointed out knock offs of CRK products. Combating counterfeiting of our products is an important objective at Chris Reeve Knives. Counterfeiters mislead you, our customers, illegally profit at the expense of CRK, and affect the entire economy through lost revenues and taxes. Without a doubt, the high quality materials, exceptional reliability, critical design aspects, and workmanship embodied in genuine Chris Reeve Knives products are greatly degraded in counterfeit products. We have observed counterfeit quality to be consistently poor, and such knives could, therefore, endanger the user by failing in a critical use situation.

The counterfeiting ranges from unethical, but legal copying, to illegal intellectual property infringement. I’d encourage continued reporting of any CRK knock offs that you see by sending us an email at crkinfo@chrisreeve.com, so we can investigate.


Thank you for your continued support!

Dave

Just to make certain none of us buys one of these knockoffs why don't we go ahead and also post the links here so that we too can see where not to buy from.

 

[TrekWalker]

This topic recently came up on another forum in re the Tom Brown Tracker 1. Nope, don't want to discuss that knife on this thread. TIA for understanding.

First: I Think That Counterfeit Anything Is Just Plain Wrong!!!

WTS, some Qs:

1) What is a counterfeit CRK? I would think it's a knife with CRK markings and re not made and/or endorsed by CRK.
2) How are revenues and taxes lost to copies/counterfeits? I would think that any knife sold would be subject to the usual Gubmint fees.
3) How is proper quality determined in re copies which are not exact?
3a) If a copy of poorer quality is sold at a cheaper price does that mitigate damages?
3b) What if the copy is as good a quality as the original (or even better quality)?
4) What is unethical copying?
4a) Why is a legal copy called a counterfeit?
5) What is an illegal intellectual copyright infringement?
6) What happens when CRK's legal protections end? Patents expire. Trade agreements change. Etc.

As I wrote above; I hate counterfeits. But I take issue with the sentiments expressed in the above quoted text.

Here's my POV:
A) Knife design by neccessity includes features found elsewhere. And no CRK knife that I know of can be considered a true original. Then there's the matter of making improvements to a design. But that's another issue.
B) Exact copies are not counterfeits if they are not claimed to be CRK knives and re.
C) Exact copies may be subject to laws, treaties, trade agreements, etc. But if the so called "intellectual property" has not been protected then it's perfectly legal to make an exact copy.
D) Morality/ethics is a matter of personal opinion which is always based on time period and culture. I see nothing wrong with making an exact copy of a CRK .... In And Of Itself (see above)!
E) I've never seen a counterfeit CRK. Lots of copies of varying quality. Always at bargain prices. Most of the copies i've seen would do just as well as a genuine CRK in the hands of the *vast* majority of the public. So why not purchase a copy?
F) CRK imply that copy-cats hurt their bottom line. I seriously doubt it. It's a well known fact that copies enhance the reputation of an established marque. And those who'd buy the cheap copy would not buy the real thing.

Finally: I do *not* have a vested interest in the knife industry. And unlike most folks .... that includes not caring about resale value!

Nor do I think that a mere possession affords me some kind of special human worth. My sense of self worth is determined by my actions.

So the only thing that's left is; are CRK knives worth copying in the first place? My answer is a resounding YES!!! And if I wanted a CRK and found a copy (i no longer own any CRKs) that was NOT a counterfeit but was a good value .... i'd buy it.

Why wouldn't you?

Peace,

Richard.

 

[Haze]

Here's my POV:
A) Knife design by neccessity includes features found elsewhere. And no CRK knife that I know of can be considered a true original. Then there's the matter of making improvements to a design. But that's another issue.
B) Exact copies are not counterfeits if they are not claimed to be CRK knives and re.
C) Exact copies may be subject to laws, treaties, trade agreements, etc. But if the so called "intellectual property" has not been protected then it's perfectly legal to make an exact copy.
D) Morality/ethics is a matter of personal opinion which is always based on time period and culture. I see nothing wrong with making an exact copy of a CRK .... In And Of Itself (see above)!
E) I've never seen a counterfeit CRK. Lots of copies of varying quality. Always at bargain prices. Most of the copies i've seen would do just as well as a genuine CRK in the hands of the *vast* majority of the public. So why not purchase a copy?
F) CRK imply that copy-cats hurt their bottom line. I seriously doubt it. It's a well known fact that copies enhance the reputation of an established marque. And those who'd buy the cheap copy would not buy the real thing.

Finally: I do *not* have a vested interest in the knife industry. And unlike most folks .... that includes not caring about resale value!

Nor do I think that a mere possession affords me some kind of special human worth. My sense of self worth is determined by my actions.

So the only thing that's left is; are CRK knives worth copying in the first place? My answer is a resounding YES!!! And if I wanted a CRK and found a copy (i no longer own any CRKs) that was NOT a counterfeit but was a good value .... i'd buy it.

Why wouldn't you?

Peace,

Richard.

I couldnt dissagree more with this.
The points I have highlited are probably worth some reaction but I think they speak for them selves

What about the time, effort and cost put into the original design and getting it to a working production piece ?
The people who make coppies/counterfits or what ever you want to call them just totally skip that step by stealing someone elses design. :thumbdn:

How about when a less knowledgable knife person buys a fake and thinks its real expecting the same quality of workmanship, materials and guarantee they would get with the real thing ? :thumbdn:

Seems that is not an issue for you

 

[batosai117]

I couldnt dissagree more with this.
The points I have highlited are probably worth some reaction but I think they speak for them selves

What about the time, effort and cost put into the original design and getting it to a working production piece ?
The people who make coppies/counterfits or what ever you want to call them just totally skip that step by stealing someone elses design. :thumbdn:

How about when a less knowledgable knife person buys a fake and thinks its real expecting the same quality of workmanship, materials and guarantee they would get with the real thing ? :thumbdn:

Seems that is not an issue for you

Yeah, I didn't know how to digest this earlier so I didn't post when I first saw it. It seems to go against what this thread was intended to help stop.

 

[Haze]

Yeah, I didn't know how to digest this earlier so I didn't post when I first saw it. It seems to go against what this thread was intended to help stop.

Indeed, I'm not exactly sure what his point is.

 

[okbohn]

5) What is an illegal intellectual copyright infringement?
6) What happens when CRK's legal protections end? Patents expire. Trade agreements change. Etc.
B) Exact copies are not counterfeits if they are not claimed to be CRK knives and re.
C) Exact copies may be subject to laws, treaties, trade agreements, etc. But if the so called "intellectual property" has not been protected then it's perfectly legal to make an exact copy.

a couple notes...

to 5--copyrights only apply to written works.
to 6B--exact copies are always counterfeits and are illegal because of C
to C--Intellectual property rights are secured at the time of their creation. ie in copyrights, when you write it, you have control over it. When you use a certain image or name in commerce, you immediately get a common law trademark and the protections of it. I believe patents are the same way.

Regardless, a knock off is a knock off. They don't make the same or better quality. They did steal the idea. They are trafficing on the good name/reputation of CRK and THAT alone is illegal.

my thoughts.

 

[TrekWalker]

I couldnt dissagree more with this.

Sure you could. Give it a try. <j/k>

The points I have highlited are probably worth some reaction but I think they speak for them selves

They speak volumes but you are strangely silent.

Well not completely silent. You are unjustifiably contemptuous. Why initiate insults brother? It's unnecessary and demeans only you.

What about the time, effort and cost put into the original design and getting it to a working production piece ?

Sorry, your point is unclear and I don't want to put words in your mouth. But if you mean that someone will profit from prior art .... that's life in a capitalist world my brother. CRK have certainly profited from the hard work of others (and continue to do so .... rightfully).

The people who make coppies/counterfits or what ever you want to call them

Haze, what I call them is not in question. What CRK call them is because they chose to post a thread which I believe to be filled with Marketing Mumbo Jumbo. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

I really don't want to sound condescending and offend anyone but "Words mean things." (d. webster). There's a world of difference between a counterfeit (illegal and IMHO immoral) and a copy.

just totally skip that step by stealing someone elses design. :thumbdn:

Public domain isn't theft. As you can see from my post above .... public domain is *one* of the Qs I ask about.

How about when a less knowledgable knife person buys a fake and thinks its real expecting the same quality of workmanship, materials and guarantee they would get with the real thing ? :thumbdn:

I already addressed that circumstance. Please read my post again. And to paraphrase Sharp Phil; please read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. TIA for your consideration.

The Net is an international community. If english isn't your native language and you honestly fail to understand .... please LMK so I can help you understand my Qs and Ops. Not convince you to agree w/me .... simply communicate.

Seems that is not an issue for you

Of course you're confused. You don't seem to understand that words mean things. Ok, I know that comment may seem unkind but even folks like Vassily would understand that what I wrote is the opposite of what you claim.

Please offer us your opinions. I am very interested in why you disagree. I am willing to admit error as well. But please leave out the ad hominem attacks. Once again: TIA!

Peace,

Richard.

 

[TrekWalker]

<snip>It seems to go against what this thread was intended to help stop.

Assuming that you are correct .... what is wrong with disagreeing w/the OP's agenda?

But I am unclear exactly what CRK's thread, quoted herein by the OP, was intended to stop. As noted within my first post herein.

As for the thread starter/OP: He seems to want us to refrain from buying "knockoffs" and boycott those who sell "knockoffs." But he didn't tell us what a "knockoff" is to him.

Why would he seek to punish those who make copies/imitations? Should we then boycott CRK? After all .... TTBOMK there is not one knife CRK sells that is not in some way a copy of someone else's hard work. Punishing CRK would be ridiculous, right?

A knockoff is a copy or imitation. Plain and simple. It's not necessarily illegal or unethical. And a copy or imitation (ie; knockoff) may or may not be exact. Or lesser quality. Or even a better value than the original. It depends.

Now if I were CRK and was sincere and not simply indulging in "Rabble Rousing" then I would have worded my request very, very differently!

Peace,

Richard.

 

[Old Painless]

Trek,
If morality/ethics is always based on time and culture (which I disagree with), then how can you not see counterfeiting as wrong? What time are you from? Where do you live where people counterfeit each other's products and then go grab a drink afterwards?
In this time and in this country, the majority of people frown upon counterfeiting. This is why patents, trademarks and copyrights are granted. This is why plagiarism will cost a journalist his job or get a student expelled from her school. You asked, ("why wouldn't you?") so here's your answer.

It's wrong.

- OP

 

[TrekWalker]

Indeed, I'm not exactly sure what his point is.

In brief: CRK's post is filled with Marketing Hype IMHO. It was intended to inflame passion and contains deceptive text.

But the greater issue is indeed copying someone else's work. Which is what CRK have done from day one and continue to do. And I applaud them for that!!!

Peace,

Richard.

 

[marthinus]

Please keep this thread on tract people.

to answer q 1. the biggest question of them all. IMO a counterfeit is a forge: make a copy of with the intent to deceive.

Thus a counterfeit is a knife. with the same markings etc as the original, but that person making the forge is not the legal person to make it. thus the same as faking a handwriting.

I will not buy a forge crk, because it is not the original, thus it will not meet the same high tolerance of a CRK for which they are renowned for.

And as to batosai117 original post: I agree we should always keep a look out for forges/counterfeits in order to promote CRK and as good costumers protect their interest

 

[TrekWalker]

a couple notes...
to 5--copyrights only apply to written works.

Not quite but close enough for our purposes herein. Which is why I asked what CRK meant.

to 6B--exact copies are always counterfeits and are illegal because of C

Nope! Because of C .... copies might be legal. Think about it.

to C--Intellectual property rights are secured at the time of their creation.

Not necessarily. Laws vary. And one has to apply for certain protections.

ie in copyrights, when you write it, you have control over it.

Not necessarily. Some words and phrases cannot be copyrighted. Others are in the public domain.

When you use a certain image or name in commerce, you immediately get a common law trademark

Not in the USofA. Plus it depends on whether or not the image, etc, can be protected in the first place.

and the protections of it. I believe patents are the same way.

Nope they are not. Plus patents have expiration dates. Plus patent protection varies depending on my point "C".

Regardless, a knock off is a knock off.

And a knockoff is a copy or imitation. That's it. Pretty simple mate. A counterfeit is another matter. And an exact copy is once again .... another matter.

They don't make the same or better quality.

Depends on the copy. As for copies which are of lesser quality .... they might still be better values.

They did steal the idea.

Careful here brother. By direct inference you are accusing CRK of theft.

OTOH, I do no such thing. I think that the copying that CRK have done (and continue to do) over the years are legal and ethical (TTBOMK).

They are trafficing on the good name/reputation of CRK and THAT alone is illegal.

Nope. Not necessarily. Legally or ethically.

Now if you are misusing the word knockoff and think it means an exact copy .... here's *some* points to ponder:

1) Knockoffs enhance the reputation of the originator.
2) Knockoffs are free advertising.
3) A person who buys a knockoff because it's all he can afford or thinks it's a good value might buy the real thing in due time.

3a) A follow up. Don't we see it all the time? A person wants a good cheap knife but can't afford the best so he/she settles for less. Then proudly announces that they've finally been able to buy a great knife! I venture that in most cases the cheapo they purchased is a copy of their fave knife.

For our international friends:

copy |&#712;käp&#275;|
noun ( pl. copies)
1 a thing made to be similar or identical to another

imitation |&#716;imi&#712;t&#257; sh &#601;n|
noun
a thing intended to simulate or copy something else

counterfeit |&#712;kount&#601;r&#716;fit|
adjective
made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud

I hope the above definitions help those who aren't fluent in the English language.

my thoughts.

Thank you.

Peace,

Richard.

 

[TrekWalker]

Trek,
If morality/ethics is always based on time and culture (which I disagree with),

Which is very important because it is part of the reasoning CRK used in their original thread. So please tell us why you disagree.

then how can you not see counterfeiting as wrong?

Read what I wrote not what you think I wrote. TIA for your consideration.

What time are you from? Where do you live where people counterfeit each other's products and then go grab a drink afterwards?

Why are you initiating an ad hominem attack? Sad brother. And a waste of time. Don't you think that I know that folks would insult me? Don't you think that all it does is make you look bad? Do you really think I care? <chuckle>

Well I do care .... it's a waste of bandwidth and my time. Of course that's often the reason why folks indulge in these attacks. I repeat: Sad!

In this time and in this country, the majority of people frown upon counterfeiting.

WTF does that have to do w/what I wrote brother?

This is why patents, trademarks and copyrights are granted.

Agreed.

This is why plagiarism will cost a journalist his job or get a student expelled from her school.

You asked, ("why wouldn't you?") so here's your answer.

Your answer is non responsive. I didn't ask about purchasing counterfeits. Read what I wrote please.

Then post your thoughts .... w/o insults, please. I would like to know what you think.

It's wrong.

- OP

Ok, so you agree *With Me* that counterfeiting is wrong. Cool! TAM!

Peace,

Richard.

 

[TrekWalker]

Please keep this thread on tract people.

Thank you. I'm getting tired of non responsive, insulting and OT comments.

to answer q 1. the biggest question of them all. <snip>

Sorry mate. I disagree that it's the biggest Q of them all. It's a minor Q, as I have shown thru-out this thread. Specially since we all agree on that matter; none of us would by a counterfeit because it's bloody wrong!!!

And as to batosai117 original post: I agree we should always keep a look out for forges/counterfeits in order to promote CRK and as good costumers protect their interest

Sorry, that's not what he wrote. I quote batosai117 in the first post on this thread:

Begin Quote: "Just to make certain none of us buys one of these knockoffs why don't we go ahead and also post the links here so that we too can see where not to buy from." End Quote.

Batosai117 says absolutely *nothing* about counterfeits! Nothing!!!

He wants us to boycott honest businesses who are simply copying prior art. Which is *exactly* what CRK have done and continue to do. Ridiculous!

Peace,

Richard.

 

[Old Painless]

Trek,
I did read what you wrote. I am simply making the point that in this time and culture counterfeiting is wrong. If it is wrong, then it makes sense that we wouldn't want to buy knock offs. Ad hominem? C'mon.
I never insulted you. You want to know our thoughts and why we wouldn't buy a copycat. It's not right. Please stop asking us to go back and read what you wrote or to respond to what you wrote not what we think you mean. If we misunderstand, clarify. And stop calling us "brother" when you attach it to condescending remarks, please. We feel it's wrong to buy a knock off, that's all.
- OP

 

[mmmotorcycle]

Trek,
I did read what you wrote. I am simply making the point that in this time and culture counterfeiting is wrong. If it is wrong, then it makes sense that we wouldn't want to buy knock offs. Ad hominem? C'mon.
I never insulted you. You want to know our thoughts and why we wouldn't buy a copycat. It's not right. Please stop asking us to go back and read what you wrote or to respond to what you wrote not what we think you mean. If we misunderstand, clarify. And stop calling us "brother" when you attach it to condescending remarks, please. We feel it's wrong to buy a knock off, that's all.
- OP

Good post. It seems like Trek may have an agenda. Why is it that he thinks statements that question his "logic" are insults?

CRK makes great knives and I for one will not let the petty actions of some cheap copycat scum tarnish that fact. I can thank this forum and CRK for offering something in the knife world for me to work towards. :thumbup:

I hope to some day afford a Sebenza or a Mnandi. I simply love the designs of his folders knowing that others are copying the designs of CRK is dissappointing. Whenever my funds amount to a sum large enough to buy some made by CRK I will certainly buy from a respected, well known dealer.

I also find it dissapointing that Trek seems to think buying counterfeit knives is OK and that he thinks CRK has copied the designs of others. I do know that Chris Reeve wrote the book on frame lock folder and makes the most consistently reliable semi-custom folding knives in the world.

 

[Twodogknight]

Am i wrong, or was this thread created as a place to post places to avoid, who are selling fake CRK's?

I, for one, would like to know who might be trying to pass off a Chris Reeve copy as an original(especially if they want CRK price!!).

 

[bhyde]

Honestly, it would seem to be an effort to stir the passion of CRK collectors. The directed comments are well thought out and posted. I think that we can call on the individual to make the distinctions they will towards what is authentic CRK and what is not. If they so choose, they might even consider buying them. This thread is a guideline or an education for fellow collectors/users who may unwittingly buy what they consider a CRK product for a good price or not. I believe that is the OPs original intent.

I personally would be rather upset to buy a diamond only to find out later it was glass. It is misrepresentation pure and simple.

This is MY thoughts on the matter...Now- back to our regularly scheduled activities.


Bill

 

[batosai117]

Thank you. I'm getting tired of non responsive, insulting and OT comments.


Sorry mate. I disagree that it's the biggest Q of them all. It's a minor Q, as I have shown thru-out this thread. Specially since we all agree on that matter; none of us would by a counterfeit because it's bloody wrong!!!


Sorry, that's not what he wrote. I quote batosai117 in the first post on this thread:

Begin Quote: "Just to make certain none of us buys one of these knockoffs why don't we go ahead and also post the links here so that we too can see where not to buy from." End Quote.

Batosai117 says absolutely *nothing* about counterfeits! Nothing!!!

He wants us to boycott honest businesses who are simply copying prior art. Which is *exactly* what CRK have done and continue to do. Ridiculous!

Peace,

Richard.

You sound like a broken record who keeps contradicting himself. In this thread it is "understood" that knockoff and counterfeit are one in the same. Maybe not in the english dictionary which you keep referring to, but it is just like the silent "K" in the word knife, it's not said, but it is understood to be there.

Please stop ruining my thread with your babbling, and don't take my sentences apart piece by piece either. CRK makes and designs his own knives. I believe you are mistaking Cold Steel with Chris Reeve Knives.

Here is a description of what you are doing:

The Contrarian Troll. A sophisticated breed, Contrarian Trolls frequent boards whose predominant opinions are contrary to their own. A forum dominated by those who support firearms and knife rights, for example, will invariably be visited by Contrarian Trolls espousing their beliefs in the benefits of gun control. It is important to distinguish between dissenters and actual Contrarian Trolls, however; the Contrarian is not categorized as a troll because of his or her dissenting opinions, but due to the manner in which he or she behaves:

– Contrarian Warning Sign Number One: The most important indicator of a poster's Contrarian Troll status is his constant use of subtle and not-so-subtle insults, a technique intended to make people angry. Contrarians will resist the urge to be insulting at first, but as their post count increases, they become more and more abusive of those with whom they disagree. Most often they initiate the insults in the course of what has been a civil, if heated, debate to that point.

– Contrarian Warning Sign Number Two: Constant references to the forum membership as monolithic. "You guys are all just [descriptor]." "You're a lynch mob." "You all just want to ridicule anyone who disagrees with you."

– Contrarian Warning Sign Number Three: Intellectual dishonesty. This is only a mild indicator that is not limited to trolls, but Contrarians display it to a high degree. They will lie about things they've said, pull posts out of context in a manner that changes their meanings significantly, and generally ignore any points for which they have no ready answers.

– Contrarian Warning Sign Number Four: Accusing the accusers. When confronted with their trolling, trolls immediately respond that it is the accusers who are trolls (see Natural Predators below). Often the Contrarian will single out his most vocal opponent and claim that while he can respect his other opponents, this one in particular is beneath his notice.

– Contrarian Warning Sign Number Five: Attempts to condescend. Pursued by Troll Bashers (see Natural Predators below), the Contrarian will seek refuge in condescending remarks that repeatedly scorn his or her critics as beneath notice – all the while continuing to respond to them.

– Contrarian Warning Sign Number Six: One distinctive mark of Contrarian Trolls is that every thread in which they dissent quickly devolves into a debate about who is trolling whom. In the course of such a debate the Contrarian will display many of the other Warning Signs mentioned above.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Nor do I think that a mere possession affords me some kind of special human worth. My sense of self worth is determined by my actions.

What ??? This is Bladeforums! Of course your human worth is determined by what kind of knife you have.
Actions? Actions? What does that have to do with anything? It's the knife in your pocket that matters.

Say it loud --
I'm a S*e*b*e*n*z*a*n*i*s*t*a and PROUD !!!​