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CS Laredo Bowie Handle Attachment
- Thread starter Minuteman
- Start date
) that has been glued on the tang.
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- Nov 13, 2002
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I don't know what faux cocobolo might be (some sort of plastic?), but hopefully faux means that it is tougher than real cocobolo -- not just cheaper. I like the fact that there is a nut holding it on.
This, in my opinion, makes this Carbon V knife much more servicable over the long haul than a Carbon V Trailmaster with a kraton handle. Cliff had the kraton handle on a Trailmaster spinning around after putting it to serious work for a couple weeks.
I don't get the theory behind a knife with steel that should last a lifetime and a handle that will last two weeks. I have one, but don't intend to put it to any serious hard use. I'm not sure what that leaves it good for.
On the other hand, the Laredo Bowie, with a little edge thinning, might make a nice hard use chopper. It is certainly long enough to have some bite. The sharpened clip might be handy for chopping on something you didn't want to hit with the primary edge, like bone or hardwood.
This, in my opinion, makes this Carbon V knife much more servicable over the long haul than a Carbon V Trailmaster with a kraton handle. Cliff had the kraton handle on a Trailmaster spinning around after putting it to serious work for a couple weeks.
I don't get the theory behind a knife with steel that should last a lifetime and a handle that will last two weeks. I have one, but don't intend to put it to any serious hard use. I'm not sure what that leaves it good for.
On the other hand, the Laredo Bowie, with a little edge thinning, might make a nice hard use chopper. It is certainly long enough to have some bite. The sharpened clip might be handy for chopping on something you didn't want to hit with the primary edge, like bone or hardwood.
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A lot of manufacturers call the laminated wood products "faux this or that" to make it sound different from the el-cheapo made-in-China products that look tacky and have poor material choice.I know that Dymondwood comes in "cocobolo" colour and is actually quite a nice handle material to work with. It IS very durable, though softer than Micarta and has to be fully polished to look good. Therefore, it won't have the same grippiness but thats fixed with a good grip shape. Jason.
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Cliff tests generally test his knives beyond the point where most people would use their knives. In fairness to the Trailmaster with Kraton handle and to Cold Steel, if this combinationw were truly as weak as Cliff's tests indicate, CS would have done something different. They would have received numerous complaints. Out of the thousands of TRailmasters that have been sold, this is the only instance I personally have heard of where the handles has broken loose.
I believe the faux cocobolo is as mentioned, diamondwood or somethng very similar. Much tougher than the natural wood
I believe the faux cocobolo is as mentioned, diamondwood or somethng very similar. Much tougher than the natural wood
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I'm sure that kraton satisfies the needs of the majority of Trailmaster buyers. Truth be known, most of these probably see little use, so they really don't need to be all that tough.
I am, however, interested in buying another knife for serious wood cutting purposes. It takes a REALLY rugged knife to keep up with an axe, long term durability wise. If there are ANY weaknesses, they will come out.
Why a knife for serious woodcutting? I prefer bowies to axes or khukuris because I have other purposes that a straight edged blade would more useful for, and I only want to carry one. I have cut a great deal of wood with blades and I feel I am safer with a knife or machete because you don't have to be as accurate in the alignment of your swing with 10 inches or more of edge versus 3 or so. In addition, an overextended swing with a blade won't hurt it, but could snap a hatchet. Finally, I think that a well made knife just feels really excellent when chopping -- like it always does exactly what you want it to do. I don't get that same sense of precision and control with a hatchet.
I think the Laredo Bowie has some potential in this area, so I am giving them a closer look.
I am, however, interested in buying another knife for serious wood cutting purposes. It takes a REALLY rugged knife to keep up with an axe, long term durability wise. If there are ANY weaknesses, they will come out.
Why a knife for serious woodcutting? I prefer bowies to axes or khukuris because I have other purposes that a straight edged blade would more useful for, and I only want to carry one. I have cut a great deal of wood with blades and I feel I am safer with a knife or machete because you don't have to be as accurate in the alignment of your swing with 10 inches or more of edge versus 3 or so. In addition, an overextended swing with a blade won't hurt it, but could snap a hatchet. Finally, I think that a well made knife just feels really excellent when chopping -- like it always does exactly what you want it to do. I don't get that same sense of precision and control with a hatchet.
I think the Laredo Bowie has some potential in this area, so I am giving them a closer look.
Cliff Stamp
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The Trailmaster in question suffered significant handle degredation, to the point where it became slick and slippery in hand, and I could rotate the grip around the tang due to a failed bond. This damage was onset while the blade was used mainly for chopping wood.
While it only took a brief period of time for the handle to degrade, it was in near constant use for that time as if I wasn't using it, it was being used by friends. This was heavy impact chopping, penetration approaching two inches on three inch thick soft woods (pine, fir).
Of course less frequent use, a looser grip, and weaker swings would all induce a slower rate of wear.
I wrote Cold Steel to ask if the wear was expected, and would it be fixed under the warrenty (especially the bond breaking). No responce. I have since then seen similar wear on other Kraton grips, the Trailmaster had the fastest I have seen, mainly as it was the heaviest so the impacts were larger, and it was quite popular with friends so it saw almost constant use.
It is just knobby rubber after all. Fine for a hunting knife, but not something that is going to stand up to a tight grip and heavy impacts. It is also very abrasive to some for such work, Mike Turber for example commented on the very poor performance of it in this regard, as have many others.
Considering some of the other choices Cold Steel has made in the past such as "cryo treated 420 stainless", I don't see their use of a material as great support for its quality. Especially considering their lack of support warranty wise for the abilities they promote.
Fact is that even manufacturers like Swamp Rat who use high grade rubber handles are clear to point out that they are no where near as durable as Micarta, those grips are still covered under the warrenty though, and they have a much more secure bond than the Kraton grips which are essentially just a wrap.
-Cliff
While it only took a brief period of time for the handle to degrade, it was in near constant use for that time as if I wasn't using it, it was being used by friends. This was heavy impact chopping, penetration approaching two inches on three inch thick soft woods (pine, fir).
Of course less frequent use, a looser grip, and weaker swings would all induce a slower rate of wear.
I wrote Cold Steel to ask if the wear was expected, and would it be fixed under the warrenty (especially the bond breaking). No responce. I have since then seen similar wear on other Kraton grips, the Trailmaster had the fastest I have seen, mainly as it was the heaviest so the impacts were larger, and it was quite popular with friends so it saw almost constant use.
It is just knobby rubber after all. Fine for a hunting knife, but not something that is going to stand up to a tight grip and heavy impacts. It is also very abrasive to some for such work, Mike Turber for example commented on the very poor performance of it in this regard, as have many others.
Considering some of the other choices Cold Steel has made in the past such as "cryo treated 420 stainless", I don't see their use of a material as great support for its quality. Especially considering their lack of support warranty wise for the abilities they promote.
Fact is that even manufacturers like Swamp Rat who use high grade rubber handles are clear to point out that they are no where near as durable as Micarta, those grips are still covered under the warrenty though, and they have a much more secure bond than the Kraton grips which are essentially just a wrap.
-Cliff
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Cliff, I'm not even sure they bond the kraton grips on. I think they may just heat them up and force them on in an interference fit. This would work ok if the tang cross section had a large aspect ratio (much longer than it is wide). That way it couldn't turn much even if loose. The Trailmaster tang must be closer to square for it to have turned the way yours did.
FYI, I bought a new CS Gurkha Kukri several years ago, and the kraton handle on it moved on the tang when you made a chopping motion. I decided it was driving me nuts to have a handle that moved relative to the blade (even a little bit), so I called them and arranged a return. It sent it in and they sent me another one.
FYI, I bought a new CS Gurkha Kukri several years ago, and the kraton handle on it moved on the tang when you made a chopping motion. I decided it was driving me nuts to have a handle that moved relative to the blade (even a little bit), so I called them and arranged a return. It sent it in and they sent me another one.
Cliff Stamp
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Yes, that would make sense. It may be that the Kraton just expanded due to the constant stretching during use and lost elasticity.
-Cliff
-Cliff
If you didn't observe the testing personally, maybe there was some abuse involved. However, that wouldn't make a much of a difference with Cold Steel's warranty. It is possible your letter to Cold Steel got lost in the mail, particularly since it was from a foriegn country. I have had very good customer service from them, however I called them on the phone first. My experience with Cold steel was one of those rare cases when I disagreed with a manufacturer and it ended with them agreeing with me. I got 100 % customer satisfaction. If your testing was done a few years ago, your knife probably had the lifetime warranty, although I believe current warranties are 5 years for fixed blades.
Cliff Stamp
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brownshoe :
There were no impact marks on the handle, not even significant tearing or ripping, which is quite easy for Kraton, so it is hard to see how any abuse was done to the handle, unless you want to go very x-files and imagine the guys wrapping the handle in cloth and using a vice and wrench to apply high torques to the knife and not leave any marks.
No one who uses blades I own has any reason to lie to me about what is done with them, and I sharpened it on a regular basis so I know it was getting a lot of wood work. The guys all know that I am interested in any aspect of performance, so if they did something odd they would have simply mentioned it. The Recon Scout for example lost some heavy edge chunks while brush clearing after hitting hidden concrete.
Simply put, I saw the handle degrade under my one use, which was simply extend with work by others. It is simply soft knobby rubber, it is hardly surprising it would wear with extended hard use, and that a rubber wrap could loosen.
Cold Steel has a heavily claused warrenty, if you want to get really technical, even cutting rope can void the warrenty. Just read the legalese on some of the older promotional pamphlets. They are well known for the double standard of testing they use in that none of it can be duplciated by the consumer without voiding the warrenty.
Sure, and so could have the Trailmaster I returned and the copy of the review I sent. I also spoke on the phone from someome from Cold Steel before the review started, whose name I don't recall, Dennis R. Saccher might know, he was the one who contacted them origionally about the review. No followup contact was ever made on their end either though I gave all contact info (email, phone number etc.).
-Cliff
There were no impact marks on the handle, not even significant tearing or ripping, which is quite easy for Kraton, so it is hard to see how any abuse was done to the handle, unless you want to go very x-files and imagine the guys wrapping the handle in cloth and using a vice and wrench to apply high torques to the knife and not leave any marks.
No one who uses blades I own has any reason to lie to me about what is done with them, and I sharpened it on a regular basis so I know it was getting a lot of wood work. The guys all know that I am interested in any aspect of performance, so if they did something odd they would have simply mentioned it. The Recon Scout for example lost some heavy edge chunks while brush clearing after hitting hidden concrete.
Simply put, I saw the handle degrade under my one use, which was simply extend with work by others. It is simply soft knobby rubber, it is hardly surprising it would wear with extended hard use, and that a rubber wrap could loosen.
Cold Steel has a heavily claused warrenty, if you want to get really technical, even cutting rope can void the warrenty. Just read the legalese on some of the older promotional pamphlets. They are well known for the double standard of testing they use in that none of it can be duplciated by the consumer without voiding the warrenty.
Sure, and so could have the Trailmaster I returned and the copy of the review I sent. I also spoke on the phone from someome from Cold Steel before the review started, whose name I don't recall, Dennis R. Saccher might know, he was the one who contacted them origionally about the review. No followup contact was ever made on their end either though I gave all contact info (email, phone number etc.).
-Cliff
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I should probably point out, based on this comment, that one of the main points I made to CS, regarding my Gurkha Kukri, was that I had a problem with a brand new knife that I had just taken out of the box. That's a pretty tough one for any manufacturer to weasel around. I don't know what they would have done if I told them that I'd had it a while and had been using it to clear a lot of trees. Which brings me to a second point.
I don't think that it should register as "abuse" to use a knife with a 9 1/2" long, 5/16" thick blade, called the "Trailmaster" to chop wood. It sounds to me like exactly what is is being marketed for.
To expound even further, I'm one of those guys who finds lots of uses for short knives and for long knives (but not a lot of uses for medium sized knives like in the 7" range -- except for say military type operations). For me short knives are for cutting things and long knives are for chopping things. So bringing this to a conclusion, I believe that for any production outdoor knife with a blade over about 9" long, it should be assumed that it will be used to chop wood. I'm not sure what else these big blades would be purchased for. If they're not being made to chop wood, then what do they believe is the application? I sure wouldn't buy one to clean fish. They always appear in marketing photos with some rugged looking background of leaves, wood, compasses, maps, etc.
So if they ARE being made to chop wood, I think a life span of 80 hours or less is pretty darn short. Especially in the $200 to $400 dollar range. I bet with a $30 Martindale Golok or a $10 Tramontina machete and a file, a person could probably chop for months -- probably until there wasn't enough blade left to sharpen.
Cliff Stamp
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Yes, I would regard the lifetime as quite short as well. I never liked the handle NIB, mainly due to shape, but once the texturing was reduced and later once it started to slip, I was pretty put off by its behavior. If it was just me using it alone, it would not have lasted through through a summers worth of wood cutting.
The older reviews are not overly specific about a lot of what was done (how much, how long), and there were few blade comparisons. This was essentially because I never considered it that serious at the time, and the reviews were still developing. Some of the older knives I seriously considering reviewing again as I have learned a lot sense they were written.
As a side note, my brother actually liked it with the slick handle. He found the knobs to be way too abrasive. He still had a problem with slipping in his grip, but compensated for it by regripping constantly. He also uses a looser grip than I do, and really liked the heft of the knife. He does little or no drive at the end of his chop, I do a lot and thus need a handle with an edge hook to drive off of.
The Martindale Goloks are generally used completely up, according to Daren Cutsforth, who sells them. Overseas where they are quite common, they are sharpened with a file which eats into the blades *fast*. They are generally worn down to such an extent that the weight and heft is reduced significantly and the blades replaced annually by those who use them extensively. Like you said though, these are cheap, so the periodic replacement isn't something to get worked up about.
A lot of it is just due to the less than optimal honing as well. In places were the blades are sharpened with stones, the knives last a *lot* longer. Parangs in Malyasia which are just as soft or softer (not quench hardened after forging), last many years before needing to be replaced even when they are the main work tool. When you combine quench hardening with optimal hone sharpening the tool lifetime it basically your lifetime. Khukuris in Nepal for example are worn out very slowly.
-Cliff
The older reviews are not overly specific about a lot of what was done (how much, how long), and there were few blade comparisons. This was essentially because I never considered it that serious at the time, and the reviews were still developing. Some of the older knives I seriously considering reviewing again as I have learned a lot sense they were written.
As a side note, my brother actually liked it with the slick handle. He found the knobs to be way too abrasive. He still had a problem with slipping in his grip, but compensated for it by regripping constantly. He also uses a looser grip than I do, and really liked the heft of the knife. He does little or no drive at the end of his chop, I do a lot and thus need a handle with an edge hook to drive off of.
The Martindale Goloks are generally used completely up, according to Daren Cutsforth, who sells them. Overseas where they are quite common, they are sharpened with a file which eats into the blades *fast*. They are generally worn down to such an extent that the weight and heft is reduced significantly and the blades replaced annually by those who use them extensively. Like you said though, these are cheap, so the periodic replacement isn't something to get worked up about.
A lot of it is just due to the less than optimal honing as well. In places were the blades are sharpened with stones, the knives last a *lot* longer. Parangs in Malyasia which are just as soft or softer (not quench hardened after forging), last many years before needing to be replaced even when they are the main work tool. When you combine quench hardening with optimal hone sharpening the tool lifetime it basically your lifetime. Khukuris in Nepal for example are worn out very slowly.
-Cliff
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If they made a Trailmaster with a full tang and replaceable slab handles of Micarta, then that would be a combination designed to last a very long time as well. I think it would put the Trailmaster right up at the very top for an "all purpose" production outdoor knife.
I really like the blade grind, both asthetically (much nicer than a Golok!) and practically. Also, if you notice, it is one of the very few big blades with a reasonably acute point. The trend of late has been toward LOTS of belly right at the end (Busse, BK&T, Swamp Rat, etc.). The Golok and most machetes have no point either. Maybe this is seen as a safety feature. Regardless, I find a nice point, not located too high, to be very useful.
So, with no Micarta Trailmaster, I'm thinking maybe a faux colobola Laredo Bowie might be a compromise.
I really like the blade grind, both asthetically (much nicer than a Golok!) and practically. Also, if you notice, it is one of the very few big blades with a reasonably acute point. The trend of late has been toward LOTS of belly right at the end (Busse, BK&T, Swamp Rat, etc.). The Golok and most machetes have no point either. Maybe this is seen as a safety feature. Regardless, I find a nice point, not located too high, to be very useful.
So, with no Micarta Trailmaster, I'm thinking maybe a faux colobola Laredo Bowie might be a compromise.
Cliff Stamp
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The wider points are mainly to give them a lot more strength, you can snap the point off the Trailmaster a lot easier than you can a Battle Rat. However outside of dedicated prying in thick woods this isn't an issue, and the more narrow point of course gives you a lot more penetration. With the right blade design, it also doesn't need to throw the balance too far back. Which isn't an issue for the Trailmaster due to the stock thickness.
-Cliff
-Cliff
Cliff Stamp
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This can be a break point for a knife. Lots of other important details like edge geometry, handle "squarishness", and others can be fixed with some work. However if the balance is off it can only be dealt with by much more extensive moodifications (like drilling holes in the handle). It is the main reason why I wish makers and manufacturers would be more specific about the balance point, it is after all so trivial to determine.
-Cliff
-Cliff
So Cliff, you first say CS didn't respond to your letter. Now you say you sent it back and didn't get a response. Which is it? Someone else returned their knife for a Kraton handle problem and it was taken care of. Maybe since they saw the returned knife, complete with review, was from Cliff Stamp, noted canadian knife abuser, they decided to ignore you. I would.
Per Cold steels tests, you do the same thing. You test a knife beyond its design limits. At least cold steel is honest enough to tell you that your knife can do xyz, but it's designed to do abc. Their warranty may have clauses, it has changed over time, but most people have gotten satisfaction when their knives have failed due to manufacturing difficulties. About 3 years ago, coldsteel went from lifetime to limited warranties (1 year for folders, 5 for fixed?), but then their knives can be relatively cheap when bought at discount.
Per Cold steels tests, you do the same thing. You test a knife beyond its design limits. At least cold steel is honest enough to tell you that your knife can do xyz, but it's designed to do abc. Their warranty may have clauses, it has changed over time, but most people have gotten satisfaction when their knives have failed due to manufacturing difficulties. About 3 years ago, coldsteel went from lifetime to limited warranties (1 year for folders, 5 for fixed?), but then their knives can be relatively cheap when bought at discount.