CS Laredo Bowie Handle Attachment

[Roadrunner]

Originally posted by brownshoe:

Thanks for the advice Buzzbait. I will give it up; on this and other cliff threads.

Not that I feel Cliff needs someone to defend him, but this is getting annoying to me personally.

Originally posted by brownshoe:

Maybe since they saw the returned knife, complete with review, was from Cliff Stamp, noted canadian knife abuser, they decided to ignore you. I would.

So, by your assessment, if a company has a personal problem with someone submitting a warranty repair request, they are excused from even the simple courtesy of contacting that person to let them know that the damage is not covered? I sure hope you never try to become self employed, I don't think it would work out very well. You've still got a few relevant points mixed into your posts, but I'd really appreciate it if you would leave the sarcasm and personal attacks out.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

brownshoe :

So Cliff, you first say CS didn't respond to your letter. Now you say you sent it back and didn't get a response. Which is it?

All. The knife was returned with no responce. The review was sent in also not at the same time. I still do that on occasion with makers who are not that email/internet active. Earlier I wrote about problems as I also had an issue with the blade chipping aside from the handle issue.

Maybe since they saw the returned knife, complete with review, was from Cliff Stamp, noted canadian knife abuser, they decided to ignore you.

They probably should not have asked me to do the reviews in the first place then. They were quite positive initially especially in having it compare to a Busse Battle Mistress which was heavily promoted on its durability.

If the intention was to have it as a light use knife, then promoting such a comparison (which Cold Steel did readily on many occasions) is quite misleading considering how open Busse Combat is about heavy use on their products.

I was also quite clear on the phone as to how it was going to be used (as I am with all custom knives), and problems I had had with other knives under similar use. I am sure Dennis who started the process was very clear about this as well, he is now active on the forums so ask him.

...cold steel is honest enough to tell you that your knife can do xyz, but it's designed to do abc.

No, that is not what they say at all. They promote many tests with the knife taking no damage, and then tell the user that attempting to verify these claims will void the warranty. This is hype - nothing more.

Of course if the tests damaged the blades you would expect them to void the warrenty - but this isn't the case. This may have changed in recent times, it was more than year back since I have looked at the testing done by Cold Steel, the last was a Special Projects catalogue.

-Cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

To clarify, the Cold Steel knives were sent to me from Cold Steel on a request by them for me to do a review. I didn't ask for warrenty issues with the knife when it was returned, just if the behavior was expected. If it wasn't I would have noted it in the review, and looked at another sample if one was provided.

-Cliff

 

[Minuteman]

Sounds like CS was hoping for a good report, then when it didn't pan out, they wanted to put an end to the whole story. Any information they gave you beyond that point would have been a liability, so they broke off communication.

I forgot about the days of the Cold Steel-Busse wars. It got pretty ugly there for a while. Didn't Busse even run some cartoon ads characterizing Lynn Thompson was a drunk? Whew! Milestones in marketing history.

At any rate, Cold Steel was making a lot of claims about Trailmasters back then that would certainly imply wood chopping was in-bounds.

 

[frank k]

Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
I could rotate the grip around the tang due to a failed bond.

I believe that most of the CS handles are slipped on/friction fit, without using a bonding agent. The lanyard hole liner should have kept the handle from spinning around the tang.

Fact is that even manufacturers like Swamp Rat who use high grade rubber handles are clear to point out that they are no where near as durable as Micarta, those grips are still covered under the warrenty though, and they have a much more secure bond than the Kraton grips which are essentially just a wrap.

Cliff, how are the Swamp Rat handles attached? They look like they are attached similarly to CS's handles (slip fit and held in place by the lanyard liner).



- Frank

 

[Minuteman]

You know, while we're on the subject of chopping performance, handle destruction, and knife design...

It occurs to me that much is said of the balance of a knife (actually the position of the center of mass relative to the handle). This is really not the important parameter. The much more critical factor is center of percussion. For a quick tutorial, look here:

http://www.physics.brown.edu/Studies/Demo/solids/demos/1q3051.html

When a knife has been designed to locate the center of percussion at the ideal impact point (I wonder how often that happens intentionally), chopping performance is optimized and the damaging effects on the handle, and the person holding the handle, are eliminated.

Experienced sword makers know about this and the effect it has on energy delivery to the target. Swordmaker Angus Trim is well known for achieving outstanding cutting performance by optimizing the center of persussion of his blades. Swords are often tested by chopping into the edge of 1/4" plywood and then measuring the depth of the cut. Angus Trim swords have gone over a foot deep with a single blow. Other less optimized designs can't go a fraction of that amount.

Without factoring in the center of percussion, energy is redirected and penetration suffers. In addition, the effects of the energy redirection are delivered right to the handle. This would make chopping unpleasant and would create high wear and tear on the handle material and attachment mechanism.

I doubt the Himalayan Kamis understand the mathematics behind center of percussion, but I bet over the centuries they have learned practically how to take advantage of it. I'm sure that is why a good khukuri chops so smoothly.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Minuteman :

Sounds like CS was hoping for a good report, then when it didn't pan out, they wanted to put an end to the whole story.

Essentially, the idea at the time was to do more reviews of the other Cold Steel knives, that was not put into action for obvious reasons.

At any rate, Cold Steel was making a lot of claims about Trailmasters back then that would certainly imply wood chopping was in-bounds.

It would seem so to me easily, they promoted its chopping ability heavily enough.

Frank :

I believe that most of the CS handles are slipped on/friction fit, without using a bonding agent. The lanyard hole liner should have kept the handle from spinning around the tang.

Yes, but that is only one attachment point and the rubber has a lot of give. The rest of the handle could twist quite a lot, however even a small bit is enough to allow a lot of energy to be wasted on impacts.

... how are the Swamp Rat handles attached? They look like they are attached similarly to CS's handles (slip fit and held in place by the lanyard liner).

They are solid for one difference, I cut into one, it isn't a wrap. They are bonded to the handle, and can't be rotated as the tang is rectangular. They are still as bad as Kraton in some respects though, easy to cut and puncture, though they can be heat sealed and are fully guaranteed.

Minuteman :

It occurs to me that much is said of the balance of a knife (actually the position of the center of mass relative to the handle). This is really not the important parameter. The much more critical factor is center of percussion.

The center of percussion is rarely discussed, I have never heard a maker include it in the design.

For knives, it is generally only of critical importance on really specialized geometries which limit points of impact. For knives which allow chopping over a broad range of edge you just adjust the swing until it contacts in that region. This can be problematic however if your swing method doesn't suit that impact point.

For example I prefer to hit close to the choil because I use a lot of wrist torque. If the center of percussion is far out on the blade it might be too uncomfortable and generate too much feedback, I have not seen this problem however. Geometry also makes a large influence on feedback during chopping, as the smoother and deeper the cut, the lower the shock produced.

For example chop into clear white pine and dead seasoned spruce and note that the same blade with the same chopping motion feels completely different in hand.

Roadrunner :

... this is getting annoying to me personally.

That is the goal. When you can not argue with facts, attack the person this is as old as debate itself. This is done mainly to generate anger which will provoke a response which changes the subject and hopefully get some really stupid things said. The shouting match that results will completely make anyone watching quickly forget the origional points of contention.

If this fails it will be kept up any way to try to illicit an emotional responce from the public. The latter is only possible because some people are willing to believe such claims without checking the facts. Even after the facts are presented the opinion is still there to some extent and can still have an influence.


Such comments of course should have no place in debate, but they are a part of life. The ideal way to deal with them is to prevent them as they do nothing but distort information. When this isn't done, you have to ignore them, this isn't diffcult once you understand what they are trying to do, and focus instead on any actual facts where are being presented.

-Cliff

 

[brownshoe]

Thanks for reminding me Roadrunner. I really find Cliff's twisting and turning and endless comments annoying and I was going to stop posting on his threads. I have. This is not his thread, just one that's been hijacked. Maybe you don't remember, but Cliff used to moderate this forum but was removed as moderator.

Cliff first comment on this thread said one thing about coldsteel...they didn't respond to an e-mail about a handle failure. Now we find the story is totally different. This is another example of how cliff, hiding behind a screen of rational language, twists and turns things until there is no logic left.

What I find interesting is the complete lack of skepticism about what cliff states as truth. Cliff certainly has stated that he doesn't believe anything other than his own testing...why should we believe him. Remeber, by his own statements he doesn't go to knife shows, doesn't read knife magazines, and his major outlet is this single board. Not a very broad base of knifemaking or testing knowledge in my book.


But again, arguing with cliff is like wrestling with a greased pig, sooner or later you understand he enjoys it. I've started wrestling with the pig again and he certainly does enjoy it. I will take buzzbait's advice and leave the hog alone.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

brownshoe :

Cliff first comment on this thread said one thing about coldsteel...they didn't respond to an e-mail about a handle failure. Now we find the story is totally different.

the comment he is referring to :

I wrote Cold Steel to ask if the wear was expected, and would it be fixed under the warrenty (especially the bond breaking).

I have however emailed them in the past, when they started the forum here, this was not answered, but their email was always sketchy.

Cliff certainly has stated that he doesn't believe anything other than his own testing...

Of course this was never said. In fact the reviews I write constantly reference work done by others. the older reviews used to make huge numbers of embedded links to online threads. I stopped doing this as they would break frequently, but still link to other reviews, and reference work by others, in the reviews and on this forum. As well send out knives I have used to get reviews by others.

What he is referring to in the above, is the fact is that I have stated that I consider knifemakers to be biased about products they are selling or in competion with. This I would extend to anyone selling something of course not just knifemakers. Of course this doesn't lead to the conclusion he drew by any logic I am familiar with.

I also stated that there are makers that I have come to feel that are unbiased with me in private, in public they have to be very business wary obviously. However this is only possible after getting to know them very well, and they trust you to not repeat private conversations so they will then discuss the weak points of their knives and tests they have done which their knives failed badly, etc. .

Of course I would not expect someone else to have this opinion without undergoing the same process.

Remeber, by his own statements he doesn't go to knife shows, doesn't read knife magazines, and his major outlet is this single board.

I don't read the magazines consistently as they are not for sale here. I have read articles, and bought them on occasion. I have attended local shows (not knife shows, but more general exhibits which have had knifemakers) and visited with local makers, but no I don't attend the larger shows, I don't travel much in general. I do corrospond with makers frequently though both through email and on the phone. I also corrospond with other knife users daily by email.

-Cliff

 

[Minuteman]

Originally posted by Cliff Stamp

Essentially, the idea at the time was to do more reviews of the other Cold Steel knives, that was not put into action for obvious reasons.

You obviously didn't do a very good job on your first assignment!

Originally posted by Cliff Stamp

Geometry also makes a large influence on feedback during chopping, as the smoother and deeper the cut, the lower the shock produced.

For example chop into clear white pine and dead seasoned spruce and note that the same blade with the same chopping motion feels completely different in hand.

Of course (as you know) a deeper, smoother chop just spreads the shock out over a greater interval of time, so it feels better. C of P tuning, on the other hand, removes it altogether by making the response completely linear.

I agree that you should be able to "find" the C of P from the feedback you are getting at the grip, but if it's in a poor location, it sure can't be corrected. It think it should be a primary concern in large knife design.

For swords, this is an even bigger issue, since you can't just strike with any old portion of the blade -- you MUST use the striking zone out near the end.

Originally posted by Cliff Stamp

That is the goal. When you can not argue with facts, attack the person this is as old as debate itself. This is done mainly to generate anger which will provoke a response which changes the subject and hopefully get some really stupid things said. The shouting match that results will completely make anyone watching quickly forget the origional points of contention.

If this fails it will be kept up any way to try to illicit an emotional responce from the public. The latter is only possible because some people are willing to believe such claims without checking the facts. Even after the facts are presented the opinion is still there to some extent and can still have an influence.

Such comments of course should have no place in debate, but they are a part of life. The ideal way to deal with them is to prevent them as they do nothing but distort information. When this isn't done, you have to ignore them, this isn't diffcult once you understand what they are trying to do, and focus instead on any actual facts where are being presented.

But, Cliff, if you did away with all of this, most politicians would have to be sent home without a job. GOOD IDEA!

 

[frank k]

Yes, but that is only one attachment point and the rubber has a lot of give. The rest of the handle could twist quite a lot, however even a small bit is enough to allow a lot of energy to be wasted on impacts.

The CS tangs are rectangular also. If the grips are twisting on the tang they must have torn or stretched.

They are solid for one difference, I cut into one, it isn't a wrap. They are bonded to the handle, and can't be rotated as the tang is rectangular. They are still as bad as Kraton in some respects though, easy to cut and puncture, though they can be heat sealed and are fully guaranteed.

Will the bonding agent keep moisture from seeping in between the grip and the tang if you were to soak it?





- Frank

 

[Eric_Draven]

Well, it appears that this has slid into a Busse vs. Cold Steel thread. As of late, I have avoided this type of debate (and others that concern Busse knives), but I feel I have to step forward on this one.

Cliff is right on a few points, kraton does suck, especially as Cold Steel applies it. Cold Steel handles are terrible from the factory. Busse handles are superior for all the reasons that have been mentioned so far.

Also, the Cold Steel sheaths plain suck. Their sheaths are actually worse than Busse sheaths. Hard to believe but true. Luckily, Busse is not even making sheaths for their newest liner of knives, they did the smart thing and left that for people who know what they are doing.

However, with Cold Steel all is not lost. If you factor in a new handle and sheath and thin the edge down a bit, you will be rewared with a very high performance knife.

For a fraction of the price you will have a knife that will readily outperform the Busse at cutting tasks, both slicing and pushcutting. Since cutting is what I use a knife for (and not as a pry bar) I would say these knives offer a higher level of performance, for less money, than Busse knives.

Take for example one of my favorite knives, the Cold Steel Master Hunter. From the factory, the kraton handle was not comfortable, and from past experience I new that it was not durable. Also, the sheath was of such poor quality that it was dangerous.

So, I sent it to Blademan13 for a makeover. A new canvas micarta handle, thinned down convex edge, satin dinish and custom sheath and the knife was perfect.

It looks like there is an edge bevel on the knife, there is not. It is a reflection where the convex edge is polished.

My total investment in the knife was $85. $35 for the knife, and $50 to Jamie for the custom work (which I think is a slightly discounted price for a frequent customer.)

In the same size range, at a much higher price is the Busse Badger Attack.

As it came from the factory, it was not great. The fit and finish were pretty poor (the handle protruded from the tang), the edge was terrible and the sheath poor. Like the Cold Steel, it had to have a new sheathmade (a gift from a friend), had to be totally reground from a high saber grind to a full convex, and the micarta scales had to be ground flush with the tang and rounded off.

I wrote a short review when the mods were completed:Badger Review

With the modifications the performace level is quite high.

While both knives are ground from 3/16" thick stock, the Master Hunter incorporates a full distal taper, and is much thinner towards the tip. It is also ground thinner than the Badger.

Here is a shot that illustrates the difference:

The cutting performance on the Cold Steel is higher than the Busse. By higher performance I mean that the CS takes less effort to cut through a variety of materials than the Busse.

However, the Busse thick profile is tougher design, I am sure it would pry better. But that is of low consequence in a knife this size for my uses.

The INFI steel is also more stain and wear resistant.

The Carbon V steel is easier to sharpen.

Bottom line is that I spent about $85 on the Cold Steel and there is over $350 in the Busse.

While a price/performance ratio is not always informative or determinative (my victorinox paring at $3 will out cut both knives easily on light tasks), here it is appropriate because the knives are otherwise similiar in size, construction and intended use.

As a side note, this post was made to clarify a few pints I thought needed it. It was not made to run down Busse knives. Its only intended purpose is for this disscusion here at bladeforums.

So if Mr. Busse reads, and is upset that I disagree with some aspects of his knifemaking or whatever, please feel free to point out anything I wrote you feel is in error, do not get your panties in a bunch and go crying to the administrator of the sites I moderate on.

The opinions I have expressed here are my own, and should not be imputed to any other froum or group of people.

As a side note, I also had a similiar experience with the Cold Steel Trailmaster and a Busse Battle Mistress.

Price difference= Custom Trailmaster $100 vs. Busse $700 (I think that is what I sold it for.)

 

[Minuteman]

Hey, there's a nice cutaway photo of the Swamp Rat tang here:

http://www.swamprat.com/specs.html

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Frank, the entire handle isn't a solid chunk of Kraton. It would have been informative at that time to cut it open. But yes the handle material had degraded significantly by the time it started to move around. The slickness

Will the bonding agent keep moisture from seeping in between the grip and the tang if you were to soak it?

Don't know, however I would assume that any enviroment which would so effect the tang would long have reduced the blade to a fairly poor state, 52100 isn't particularly corrosion resistant. Even if the bond could prevent water from seeping in, rust could still just go right under it along the steel. However even if the bond was broken in this manner the handle could not be pulled off due to the dropped handle design and pin in the tang.

Minuteman :

I agree that you should be able to "find" the C of P from the feedback you are getting at the grip, but if it's in a poor location, it sure can't be corrected. It think it should be a primary concern in large knife design.

Yes, it could be a big problem, but I have not in general noticed it with the blades I have used. But personally I am really not specific at all about contact points as I just vary them with the blade. For example the Valiant Goloks did not work well for me when I chopped with them as I usually do, the penetration was fine, but they felt "dead", the cut was not smooth. So I moved up on the blade and found the optimal contact point. If you wanted however to chop in a particular spot this would be of critical importance because as you noted if the spots are not close, the feedback will not be nice at all.

Eric_Draven :

if you factor in a new handle and sheath and thin the edge down...

Of course the performance of a customized knife with be greater in those areas for which it was optomized. Any cheap production knife could be modified to generate a better cutting ability than any stock knife if you just ground it thinner. Mike Swaim did this way back on rec.knives years ago, I started looking at geometry based on his work and the stuff Talmadge did back in 1998 and such modifications have been a significant part of the reviews .

If you want to ignore steel properties such as edge retention, toughness, ductility, corrosion resistance, and other issues like QC, warrenty, and instead just focus on cutting ability as influenced by geometry then you can make a knife out of mild steel which can out perform many if not all custom knives. I recently made a couple which out cut many of the knives I own, and even showed better edge lifetimes on cutting hemp rope than much more expensive knives :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=261961

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=264385

Similar for custom handle ergonomics compared to a grip which has to be made to try to be more universal and similar issues with sheaths, such as fit to the knife which the optimal hold will be different from person to perfom.

[badger attack and Cold Steel Master Hunter]

...the knives are otherwise similiar in size, construction and intended use.

The Badger Attack as part of the "Combat" line has a much wider scope of work than the Master Hunter. A more similar knife would be the Howling Rat from Swamp Rat Knifeworks, but even that is designed for more utility work and isn't purely a light cutting tool. The new D2 Swamp Rats are however should be fairly close to those constraints. This however will still will not have the level of cutting performance or handle ergonomics and security of a Cold Steel knife which is heavily user customized. It will however have advantages in edge retention due to D2, and QC, and warrenty support. Plus you could modify its edge to increase the cutting ability if so desired as well.

-Cliff

 

[PlaceKnives]

My father is sending me his Kraton handled Trail Master, I'll be putting a new mortised Micarta handle on it for him.

He hated the rubber too. He has big hands and the thin stick like handle was not sufficient for him. He said it was so uncomforatble that it made him not want to use the knife.

I'll post pictures when I fix it.

My Handmade Knives

 

[Minuteman]

Originally posted by PlaceKnives
My father is sending me his Kraton handled Trail Master, I'll be putting a new mortised Micarta handle on it for him.

Jared, I've got a couple questions for you, if you don't mind. I was thinking of doing this very thing myself.

(1) Do you intend to blind mortise into a Micarta block so that it will the fit onto the Trailmaster tang? If so, what is the general approach / tooling are you planning to use to do this? Or will you inlet into Micarta slabs and assemble the handle around the tang?

(2) How do you plan to attach it? Epoxy? Or save the stock lanyard ferrule and press it back it? Use fasteners or pins? (isn't the stock tang going to be too hard to drill or tap?)

I assume the stock tang is rectangular, tapered, and has a single hole for the lanyard ferrule which, I also assume, is a press fit into the tang hole. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

 

[Jerry Busse]

Originally posted by Eric_Draven
Well, it appears that this has slid into a Busse vs. Cold Steel thread. As of late, I have avoided this type of debate (and others that concern Busse knives), but I feel I have to step forward on this one.. . . .
. . . .So if Mr. Busse reads, and is upset that I disagree with some aspects of his knifemaking or whatever, please feel free to point out anything I wrote you feel is in error, do not get your panties in a bunch and go crying to the administrator of the sites I moderate on.

Chad (aka Eric Draven),

Not so surprisingly, you are presenting an untruthful account of what really happened with my email to your friend. I did not contact the administrator of the board you moderate because I was upset that you disagree with some aspects of my knifemaking as you infer in your post, but rather contacted him after you came to the Busse Forum and made a childish and inflammatory remark.

About a week ago, on 7-22-03, when I was unable to contact you privately, I wrote this email to your friend, Terry Trier.

Terry,

I tried to contact Chad Engelhardt privately concerning this matter, but his phone has been disconnected and his email is no longer visible. Below is an inflammatory post that he put on the Busse forum today. It was obviously meant to get something started. I think that everyone involved in the last debacle has had enough.

In order to avoid future confrontations, I would suggest that he refrain from making any more childish and/or inflammatory remarks.

Please pass this on to him and express our disinterest in any further conflict with him. . .

Here's the post he responded to,
"It's not complicated. It all comes down to steel, heat treat, and ergos." --- Matteo Escobar

And here is his sophomoric and uncalled for response,

"Ergos? Around here I think you mean egos. . . ." --- Chad Engelhardt

So Chad, just in case you're still confused. It is comments like the one you just made in this post,"Mr. Busse . . . do not get your panties in a bunch and go crying to the administrator of the sites I moderate on." and "Around here I think you mean egos" that are typical of what I refer to as your "childish and/or inflammatory" remarks. Get it?

Maybe it's time for you to either drop the antagonistic remarks or take them off-line and call me directly with any other comments you would like to make. Or, feel free to email me your new phone number and I will be more than happy to give you a call. My personal email is jerry@bussecombat.com

Thanks,

Jerry

 

[PlaceKnives]

Minuteman- You aked me...

"(1) Do you intend to blind mortise into a Micarta block so that it will the fit onto the Trailmaster tang? If so, what is the general approach / tooling are you planning to use to do this? Or will you inlet into Micarta slabs and assemble the handle around the tang?"

I will be using slabs of Micarta with half mortised from each piece, then I intend to use 2 ton epoxy and new lanyard tubing through the original lanyard hole. This should secure the handle enough. This is how Paul LeBatard handles most of his knives. Since Micarta has really flat surfaces from the factory, it's possible to have a seam that is damn near invisible. The grain in the Micarta usually is the same throughout as well. I've seen joints so perfect on these arrangements that you'd swear it was a one piece block. Of course if you weren't too sure of your abilities in mating the 2 pieces together perfectly, you could use a colored spacer between the halves which would make a neat looking seam.

If (and this probably won't be possible) if I can drill a 5/32" hole higher up on the tang, I'll use a Loveless style bolt to further secure the handle in place.

I'll let you know how it all turns out. I may get the knife next week.

 

[Minuteman]

Originally posted by PlaceKnives
If (and this probably won't be possible) if I can drill a 5/32" hole higher up on the tang, I'll use a Loveless style bolt to further secure the handle in place.

Jared, thanks for the advise.

FYI, there are a fews ways I can think of to get holes into a hardened tang:

(1) Buy several drill bits, use oil, go slow, and plan to throw the bits away when you're done. (And DON'T break one off!!)

(2) Use some kind of grinding bit, like what they sell for demel tools and go slow.

(3) I have heard of using a spot welder at the point where you want to drill to heat it up and anneal a place just big enough to drill through.

(4) Talk to your friend who has an EDM machine.

 

[Mike_Chandler]

I saw a picture of a Place knife, it looked nice. I think Ron M posted it. I think your father will be happy with his.