CS- love 'em, hate 'em- time to address some issues

From Mike Stewart. Owner of Bark River Knives.

CV--Chorme Vanadium Steel and Carbon V are all the very same steel.

This is not a mistery steel. It is not a new steel. It had been made by the hundreds of tons For many many ywears and used by ALL the major Knife Companies for Decades.

It is 0170-6 cutlery Steel...It was developed in the 1950's by sharon Steel specifically for Knives.

It is an enhanced 1095. They added Nickel--Chromium and a trace of Vanadium. it was a patented steel of Sharon.

Everybody used it. it was called by cute names by some companies --Chrome-Vanadium by others.

This was the original Steel chosen by both Lynn Thomson for his Trailmaster and me for the Old Mamba. We all used it until 1988.

sharon Steel went Bankrupt in 1988. None of us could get it and no other mill would duplicate it because the papent was still in effect.

We all switched to other steels.

A couple of years ago Case and Camillus Found a mill that would duplicate the Chemistry and they ordered a heat lot--+/_ 100,000 lbs.

Case had thier portion of the heat lot rolled to pocket knife sizes and Camillius had thier portion rolled to use for Lynn on his U.S. made knives and the Becker line.

This was a common steel and will out perform 1095. I have used it in a lot of the early Blackjacks. I still have some and made our goloks and Northwind Swords from it.

I have no idea why this question keeps comming up. All of this is common knowledge in the industry.

I suspect that nobody will be using it except for Case, Cammilius, Becker, Westerm and Cold Steel.

As I'm sure you know that Case makes thier knives and Camillius makes all of the other brands that I just mentioned.

I doubt that you will have any better luck relaying this info either. It dosen't seem that folks want the truth.

It's more fun for folks to speculate...................
 
K.V. Collucci said:
Regarding the AK-47.......

This knife was originally made by custom knifemaker Andrew Demko from PA. He was approached by Emerson regarding his Wave-type feature and agreed to discontinue using it on his knives. Lynn Thompson, however, decided to keep the Wave feature on the knife after Andrews accord with Emerson. That is fact. I saw and handled the custom version and was present when Emerson approached Andrew. It looks as though CS opted disregard this accord. Explain that one.
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This is an interesting story, which as far as I'm concerned is true if Ken says he was there. However, in DngrRuss1's post he states that the CS thumb plate is based on a patent owned by Andrew Demko and that Emerson's patent is not the same thing, ergo there is no conflict with Emerson. It would be great for those of us in the peanut gallery to get some clarification.
 
I'll weigh in on only one partion of this diatribe - I own a Custom Tighe Stick and have placed it against the CS version - IMO this was a total ripoff.

There are always going to be ways around a patented (or popular unpatented design) but changing it 5% doesn't make it morally acceptable to reproduce for profit.
 
I'd like patent numbers. No one has provided that for the Cold Steel thumb plate. I called Cold Steel to get it and they stalled and put me on hold and never picked back up. Yeah, thats a real credit to their integrity right there IMO.

It says it is patented in their catalog and the web site. We all know Ernie's patent number. How about the others?

STR
 
Thanks to the original poster for some info.

I'm pretty much with STR on this one, The knives themselves may be decent, but the conduct of the owner, IMO leads to the "hate".

When the San Mai formula was revealed in the cold steel forum that was here, the forum was pulled supposedly due to "being too much work". That might have been the case, but it just seemed too coincidental to me, BTW, they said it was 420 on the outside and AUS-8 on the inside.

While most knife companies move to better and more expensive steel, CS moves in the opposite direction. Then tries to spin it for the ignorant. Honest people don't do that.

There was a riposte article some time ago about against tactical knives, yet in the next catalog cycle there where these new tactical knives from CS. Seems like the owner had an issue with someone personally, tried to spin it in terms of the knives, then realized that there was market share there and started offering them. The onconsistent message there say alot to those who are paying attention.
 
This is my main beef with CS:

I really don't mind the outragous marketing claims or over-the-top DVDs. These I can ignore (or at least enjoy on a humorous level). And for the most part, I really don't care for any of their knives, or can find something better for the price with a different company. But that's just my preference.

What I can't look past though is the Black Sable and Black Talon. The Black Sable, no matter how you explain its design, looks too much like Brian Tighe's Tighe Stick. It looks like a rip-off. But even if you look past this and give CS the entire benifit of the doubt, and the Black Sable was designed purely independantly of the Tighe Stick, and it's 100% coincidence that they look so similar, it's still wrong for Cold Steel to produce this knife, and would never buy one. Yes, some knives look alike. Eventually, over time, once original designs can become commonplace. It's not like somebody owns the patent on the wharncliffe or the spearpoint. Even CS's once unique Americanized tanto is pretty commonplace now.

But the Tighe Stick is so unique, so original, so radical, and so new, that even if the Black Sable's similarities are completely coincidental, Cold Steel should either not make the knife, or should have contacted Brian about licencing his design. And if he refused (as would be his right to do), Cold Steel should have either not made the knife, or changed the design enough that it was a different enough knife that people like us at Bladeforums wouldn't be calling it a rip-off. If not out of respect for Brian Tighe, at least so we wouldn't be dragging Cold Steel's name through the proverbial mud.

And then there's the Black Talon. Producing a knife that looks like Brian Tighe's knife (accidentally or otherwise) is one thing, the Black Talon is just absurd. I can understand (although remain suspicious) if CS's design department was unfamiliar with Brian's work, since he is a custom maker and perhaps not a household name, even amongst knife people. But everybody who knows anything about knives has heard of Spyderco, and anybody who knows anything about Spyderco most likely knows about the Civilian/Matriarch. To say that Cold Steel never heard of the Civilian would be like saying that the Ford truck engineers never heard of the Dodge Ram.

Then there's this new AK47 business.

What remains is that even if Cold Steel is perfectly within their legal rights to do what they're doing (maybe they are, maybe they aren't, I'm not qualified to judge), they've certainly crossed the ethical line. More than crossed it, they've spit on it, wizzed on it, and insulted its mother. On one end of the spectrum you've got companies and people like Sal Glesser/Spyderco and A.G. Russell who are total class acts both in busniess and in ethics. On the other end you've got Dark Ops and LT/Cold Steel. Full of sh!t, full of themselves, and devoid of ethics. They could make the best knives in the world (which they don't) and I wouldn't buy them based on their principles.
 
When the San Mai formula was revealed in the cold steel forum that was here, the forum was pulled supposedly due to "being too much work".
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You hit it on the head. It is too much work to try to fool a knowledgable knife knut vs the ignorant public that will buy anything including the hype and nonsense that AUS8A is as good as S30V and any of the other super steels.

Once they realized they could not pull the wool over the eyes of the guys frequenting the forums they pulled out. Its much easier to just walk the one way street. Who needs feedback anyway? Besides Lynn knows far more than anyone around here. :jerkit:

STR
 
Planterz said:
And then there's the Black Talon. Producing a knife that looks like Brian Tighe's knife (accidentally or otherwise) is one thing, the Black Talon is just absurd. I can understand (although remain suspicious) if CS's design department was unfamiliar with Brian's work, since he is a custom maker and perhaps not a household name, even amongst knife people. But everybody who knows anything about knives has heard of Spyderco, and anybody who knows anything about Spyderco most likely knows about the Civilian/Matriarch. To say that Cold Steel never heard of the Civilian would be like saying that the Ford truck engineers never heard of the Dodge Ram.
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On this point, at least, there has been some light shed. Check this post where Sal points out that he and LT have an agreement on the Black Talon.

Black Talon discussion
 
I have a quick question that will problem get flamed. What are the specifics behind spyderco's patent on the civillian blade? It seems like this would make it possible for only them to make knives with that style of blade and to me that seems a bit shady. Can someone clarify that?
 
I was looking forward to DngrRuss1 to clear up some matters if he was willing to stick up for Cold Steel. DngrRuss1, seemed to know more than most when it came to the attitudes of LT and CS. Then as quickly as he appeared, he disappered just as quickly when Planterz asked his first question whick I agreed needed explaining. Doesn't seem this is going to be a debatable topic if Cold Steel's representative doesn't even answer the first question.
 
Death's head: Maybe he has something to do on a sunday than sitting here answering questions all day. I'm sure he'll be back at some point to clear it up.
 
Good points all, I personally have no opinion of CS as I have never watched their videos or bought any of their knives. I do, however, feel that this type of discussion is appropriate for any industry where there is competition for profits. CS is in the business of making money... period. That is why they are a business. At the end of the day there is someone, or a group of someones, examining the bottom line, and everything they do results from that. They may have acted in a morally irresponsible fashion, but when in the business world has this ever not been normal? Right or wrong, the free market society we are blessed with spawns all sorts of reprehensible crap, but usually the end user benefits. Maybe not so in this case. Anyway, I am surprised that there isn't more indignation on from the designers. I would be curious to see what they felt.
My two cents, and probably not worth that.
 
Another question here. What about sog's arc lock? I know thats very similar to the axis lock, so does sog pay royalties to benchmade?
 
RedEdge77 said:
I have a quick question that will problem get flamed. What are the specifics behind spyderco's patent on the civillian blade? It seems like this would make it possible for only them to make knives with that style of blade and to me that seems a bit shady. Can someone clarify that?
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All of the pertinent patent information in Kenneth T. Delavigne's book entitled the SPYDERCO STORY BOOK. On pages ( in the hardback edition) 90 thru 93 there are all of the schematics, intricate details and exploded views of the overall design of the Civilian/Matriarch. The patent was 2 fold: one part of it was granted on February 08, 1994 and the second part of it was granted a patent on August 23, 1994. All of the succinct details are laid out in their entirity. It has patent numbers Des.344,006 & Des.349,837 respectively. And each patent is good for a term of 14 years.

It's pretty plain to me that there is indeed a rock solid, bonafide patent on that particular blade design.
 
Its Pascha, LT is still a jerk-off of the first order. Welcome to the wonderful world of the "Ignore" list. Feel free to add me to yours, I need a shower and confession just for reading another CS thread at Easter.
 
DngrRuss1 has some kind of relationship with ColdSteel, and he enjoys stirring the pot. Make NO mistake, he has an agenda, and the fact that he NEVER mentions this until it is brought up makes me like CS even less.
And also, he very rarely comes back to address real concerns.
What about Lynn's bashing of a kerambit, and now he sells them?
 
Well, I might as well chime in, too! :D Maybe I'll get flamed for this, but I could care less about the politics involved. If a knife is priced right, and the quality is what I expect, I buy it. If one company has a problem with another, let them fight it out. I own some CS as well as others. You have to admit, LT is a marketing genius! He sells a lot of knives and he has all of us talking (arguing) about them. One last point - if CS business practices are so unethical, why aren't the SELLERS responsible also? After all, they would be "abetting" CS! Just my $.02 ....
 
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