CS Recon Scout Fails Miserably

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Interesting story, the picture is not quite sharp enough to tell a brittle fracture. It does look like the blade to tang transition might be a bit sharp but it does still not explain the failure. When you hammer on the spine the tang should not be stressed much unless the gripp on the handle is a bit odd, in fact after the first hit you don't have to hold it at all and then the tang juncture is not stressed.

A much more common scenario is when you try to split the tree by bending sideways, seen enough blades broken by that method.

Heat treat cycles do go wrong, try to leave the draw out and something like this happens easily.

TLM
 
Andrew Lynch said:
I bet Cliff would not be too surprised. I too am interested in exactly how this happened. Thanks for sharing.


Its about what I'd expect from CS....

I wouldn't take their junk into my back yard, much less the back country! :barf: :barf:
 
One story is never enough to draw firm conclusions from. Especially a story where we don't know what was being used to baton the knife with. On the other hand, the first thing that jumped out at me was the perfectly right-angle shoulders between the blade and tang ... we all know stress can concentrate there, and that's where the knife broke. And someone (my apologies, I just read the post a few minutes ago and I've already blanked) earlier in the thread mentioned hearing of this kind of thing before ... kind of alarming.
 
TLM said:
Heat treat cycles do go wrong, try to leave the draw out and something like this happens easily.

TLM

And not all steel arrives from the manufacturer perfect. Good heat treat doesn't fix everything. It would be interesting to get a competent 3rd party to take a look at the break to see if it was a freak quality problem in the steel, or something more ominous.
 
There is a knot right where the knife was trying to wedge into the log, that pretty much will lock anything in there. So when the hammer struck that fatal blow the shock waves traveling to the weakest part of the knife and with any upward tork was enough to make it fail at its weak point. Sure was alot to ask of any knife to be pounded into a frozen log like that. Anyone want to try the same with their high dollar knife? Find a frozen log and put the blade into a knot then whack it with a framing hammer then show us your two piece one piece knife. The point is that if you're carring a hammer then you should carry a hand axe instead. Like C.E. said "A man gots to know his limitations" or that of his tools. You should have also showed the troops how to make the best out of a bad situation, by making a spear out of the broken knife. ;)
 
Nutnfancy said:
Failure of this sort is inexcusable no matter the cold or what not. A survival knife should take any condition you find yourself in... if it can't you should pitch it. :mad:

Failure, yes. Not of the knife, but of planning. Thus, turning a winter backpacking trip into a potential survival situation. Blaming one's tools because the proper tools were left behind.
 
Joe Talmadge said:
One story is never enough to draw firm conclusions from. Especially a story where we don't know what was being used to baton the knife with.

From the looks of that smaller log propped up near the guys foot, I would guess that was the baton.
 
[Off Topic]
I always wonder why people are so wild about chopping logs with knives. Are we a species of downed F-16 pilots who have to make it through the deep backcountry with just their issue blade in hand? A $20 small axe will make quick work of that log, frozen or not.
[/Off Topic]
 
Aaron, a good large fixed blade should be able to chop a log. Sure, its not the best tool for the job, but it should be able to do it. If a knife breaks when splitting firewood, would you trust your life to it? I wouldnt. Thats why my big fixed blades will be Busse and Swamp Rat!
 
And speaking of stress risers, a saw cut half way through a log produces a stress riser so that when you wang the log againt something hard (rock, log, frozen ground) it tends to split along the length of the log.
 
That will convince many of the advantage of a full tang contruction for big knives.
 
I agree with Ebbtide that a metal hammer is inappropriate. Batonning with a piece of wood instead is much safer.

At 15 degrees the water in the baton, as well as the target log, would be very hard and solid. The blows here may have been much harder then the photo implies. It doesn't help that the mounting of this guard seems to use a sharp ground cutout that probably creates a stress riser. How did your other knives do under these conditions?

n2s
 
This is a very interesting thread! I seem to recall that the junction where it broke does have a radius, but a very small one. I wonder if it's too small.

So basically the question that everyone wants to know is - was this a design failure or a steel failure.

Using a hammer would have been hard. I seem to recall a pic in a magazine of Rob Simonich holding up pieces of one of his *very* good knives after breaking it with a hammer also. No design failure there, just taking a knife past what it's meant to do.
 
I wonder if other similar knife will suffer the same faith?

namely the swamprat BR?
 
Carbon steel does get a little more brittle in very cold temps. I broke a Gerber once trying to cut through some very cold ice cream in a box.

I have a Mission Knife and Tools titanium MPK (but mine is a sterile one) and maybe one of the knives in the group should have been an MPK. I have NO doubt that the MPK would stand up to this kind of punishment especially in the cold. Titanium does not get brittle in extreme cold temps.

That's my 2 cents worth.

Ron
:p
 
Thanks everyone for the posts. A couple of points thus far:

The small log was indeed the baton for hammering the knife through thelog and the knife was never hit with steel. Most of the hits were on the front of the blade protruding from the log while the user helped push the blade through. This is not an unreasonable method of splitting wood in fact it is the preferred method taught to students at USAF survival school. I should know because I went through the school.

The knives they use vary but none are custom, usually just a cheap Camillus USAF survival knife. When I went through I used an Ontario Navy MK 3 dive knife which performed admirably doing the same tasks i.e. being hammered through a log to split it. Granted the temp was around 30º and not 5º but the instructors gave no caveats regarding temperature nor should they have. I've also used standard Kabar Marine Combat knives similarly in identical conditions and experienced no failures. And after the CS Recon Scout snapped in our Becker 9" and Kabar Next Gen knives continued to serve faithfully spitting the remaining wood for the fire. These are tasks that should be easily performed by a tool touted as a tough survival/combat knife and many like the Kabars and Beckers have done so faithfully, plain and simple.

The point is that if you're carring a hammer then you should carry a hand axe instead. Like C.E. said "A man gots to know his limitations" or that of his tools.

This entirely misses the point. Fire making skills taught with a axe or hatchet aren't survival skills so much as they are camping skills. When you are day packing into the backcountry, driving in a remote area, or flying over bad guy territory (military) and find yourself stranded what kind of tools will you have with you? Are you saying you will have carried an axe with you in the eventuality that you might need a fire?! I doubt it and I often see this attitude from people who don't backpack or venture into the woods very often (car campers). Weight is always a consideration especially when carrying preparedness supplies you probably won't need on the average hike. A survival knife can be carried without breaking your back and, unlike a 2-3 lb axe, and is more versatile in purpose. In additon to the knives, we also used a 10 oz Sawvivor backpack saw to cut down a 40' dead fir tree that we split with the knives. This saw is compact and light and very effective at cutting logs in two. It, like a good survival blade, is a realistic tool that you can incorporate into your system.

Sawvivor.jpg


The purpose of this survival instruction to these youth (and leaders) is to choose tools that are likely to have with them (habits) and get some real world training with them so as to solidify skills and build confidence. This is the purpose of these campouts with these youth. After the fire making seminars,both classroom and outdoor campouts, we'll do shelter building.

Incidentally, I told the boys that they could bring whatever fire tools they wanted on these campouts with one caveat: whatever they are they had to bring the tools with them on every hike we do, including day hikes (because part of the training is building habit patterns). Most figured out real quick carrying 6 lbs of tools (in addition to clothing, tent, slpg bag, food, fuel, stove, lighting, first aid, etc) 5 miles into the backcountry sucks and they paired it down to two knives: one large survival blade and a SAK. Ahhh, experience is always the best teacher.

Yoda.jpg


Also Peoria46 says that this was a failure of planning and not of the tool. What?! I'm not sure what thread you read but re-read the original post. We had several backup blades and multiple preparations to deal with any eventualities. We were just fine because of our redundancy in preparation. But the point was made that a failure like this could have led to a survival situation made worse by the tool's failure. While day hiking or flying over enemy territory I personally haven't made a practice of carrying two knives in case one fails nor will I. Your single large survival blade should last not snap in two. You should have confidence in it.

The points of the sharp corners contributing to the failure of the Recon Scout are well taken and I agree that form a weak juncture with their 90º angles. Also maybe this one was a lemon. I also own a Recon Scout and have used it hard down to only about 35ºF. I'm just saying if my life depends on my blade, and it could it some situations, and it's winter, the CS Recon will get left at home. It's replacement will be a Fallkniven A2 on its way. I'm going with that knife for it's supposed toughness and its rust resistance which will be advantageous. Keeping the Beckers and Recons rust free while snow camping is tough.

Again, I'm not anti-Cold Steel but I am anti-failure. In their catalog CS says of their Recon Scout, "We believe the Recon Scout® is the strongest, toughest, 7 1/2 combat knife in the world." My experience shows this a bit off the mark.
SnowBoys4.jpg
 
Well of course the Recon Scout isnt "the strongest, toughest, 7 1/2" combat knife in the world" because that would be the SRKW Camp Tramp.... :D
 
My standard backpacking kit includes a Gerber pull-out saw, Swamp Rat INFICoot, and Juice mutiitool. In Winter, I upgrade to a Busse Badger Attack.

I don't think it unreasonable that team gear might include a small axe and/or a larger saw.
 
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