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CS Recon Scout Fails Miserably
- Thread starter Nutnfancy
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DaQo'tah Forge
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Ok....I have read everyones post,,,and looked very closely at the photos,,,,
I also have remembered back to my past in the cub and boy scouts,,and the times we also had to start a fire to warm up the toes(as seen in the first photo)
So as I have about as much or as little, understanding of the situation as the rest of you,,,here is my view.
========================
I think that was asking a lot of that knife to do,,,while I fully understand the idea of teaching young men the importance of useing what you have to keep yourself alive in the wilderness,,,,One MORE important lesson is that when you are useing any tool, (like your knife), in a manner you know could cause it harm,,,You GOT TO BE CAREFULL!!!!!!
Breaking a knife when you are standing next to 4 other guys with knives, is no big deal,,even a bit funny.
Breaking a knife when you are all alone?...When starting a fire is a matter of life or death? .then thats not funny at all...
So actually breaking the knife in front of the young men was a GOOD THING to show them about useing any knife in the field,
They will always remember what happend to your knife! Chances are that NONE of the young men will alow anyone to hammer into frozen wood any of their knives!...(and thats not such a bad thing to teach them...)
Now to the REAL question, was the Knife at fault?.....My answer is:..."no, not really"....while I would wish that the very hard steels that they make camping knives out of would be able to take a real pounding ...The sad truth is ,thats just not what the market wants from today's knife makers ...
We like hard knives,,,,
We like knives that will stay sharp for years and years,,,,,
we like them to never need to be sharpened because so few of us know how to work a oil stone anymore....
We buy sharp knives,,,use them untill they get dull,,,then get a new one..
Thats the American Knife market in 2005.....
There is no market for softer/stronger blades that can be pounded many times into 8-inch frozen wood, because them types of knives tend to not fit what people really want from a knife.,,,,
Your knife failed in the field test due to the fact that it is not as strong as a tire iron, when it was asked to be as strong as a tire iron.
Stll,,,the lesson to the other young men is still a good one for them to remember,,,That unless you are very carefull with their own knives in the field, they can break and fail them when used to do things that are a danger.
I also have remembered back to my past in the cub and boy scouts,,and the times we also had to start a fire to warm up the toes(as seen in the first photo)
So as I have about as much or as little, understanding of the situation as the rest of you,,,here is my view.
========================
I think that was asking a lot of that knife to do,,,while I fully understand the idea of teaching young men the importance of useing what you have to keep yourself alive in the wilderness,,,,One MORE important lesson is that when you are useing any tool, (like your knife), in a manner you know could cause it harm,,,You GOT TO BE CAREFULL!!!!!!
Breaking a knife when you are standing next to 4 other guys with knives, is no big deal,,even a bit funny.
Breaking a knife when you are all alone?...When starting a fire is a matter of life or death? .then thats not funny at all...
So actually breaking the knife in front of the young men was a GOOD THING to show them about useing any knife in the field,
They will always remember what happend to your knife! Chances are that NONE of the young men will alow anyone to hammer into frozen wood any of their knives!...(and thats not such a bad thing to teach them...)
Now to the REAL question, was the Knife at fault?.....My answer is:..."no, not really"....while I would wish that the very hard steels that they make camping knives out of would be able to take a real pounding ...The sad truth is ,thats just not what the market wants from today's knife makers ...
We like hard knives,,,,
We like knives that will stay sharp for years and years,,,,,
we like them to never need to be sharpened because so few of us know how to work a oil stone anymore....
We buy sharp knives,,,use them untill they get dull,,,then get a new one..
Thats the American Knife market in 2005.....
There is no market for softer/stronger blades that can be pounded many times into 8-inch frozen wood, because them types of knives tend to not fit what people really want from a knife.,,,,
Your knife failed in the field test due to the fact that it is not as strong as a tire iron, when it was asked to be as strong as a tire iron.
Stll,,,the lesson to the other young men is still a good one for them to remember,,,That unless you are very carefull with their own knives in the field, they can break and fail them when used to do things that are a danger.
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Nutnfancy, if you're in the market for a new blade, you really may want to check out one of the smaller HI khukuris. The Ang Khola line is guaranteed against breakage of any type, and from experience I can tell you that they will honor their pledge (also, you aren't likely to need it 
). They do tend to be a bit heavier than most other large knives, but still not nearly as heavy as an axe and the prices are reasonable. BTW I'm not a rep of the company, just a very satisfied customer.
To those who think that chopping with a large-bladed knife is abuse, I ask you to give it a try sometime and consider the mechanics involved. When you're using another piece of wood as a baton, there's very little lateral stress placed on the blade. Any quality fixed blade intended for rough use should be able to withstand that kind of force. One thing I would consider abuse would be to wedge the blade in a log and then try to pry it apart. A really tough blade should be able to handle it, but it's certainly a lot more stressful to the blade than batoning. Personally, if I were to choose a survival blade, I'd want something that I am incapable of damaging (like an Ang Khola). I also wouldn't depend on a blade I had not tested. Even the best manufacturer lets a dud get out the door once in a great while. Testing your equipment isn't just prudent, it's a lot of fun.
I think so anyway. In a truly desperate situation, there's no telling what resources you'll have available or what difficulties you'll have to face. You may not want to use your blade as a prybar or an axe, but it may be the only thing at your disposal which will get the job done. If you know your equipment and it's capablities, then you'll only have to worry about your environment. Much better to eliminate the guesswork before it's your life on the line.
). They do tend to be a bit heavier than most other large knives, but still not nearly as heavy as an axe and the prices are reasonable. BTW I'm not a rep of the company, just a very satisfied customer.To those who think that chopping with a large-bladed knife is abuse, I ask you to give it a try sometime and consider the mechanics involved. When you're using another piece of wood as a baton, there's very little lateral stress placed on the blade. Any quality fixed blade intended for rough use should be able to withstand that kind of force. One thing I would consider abuse would be to wedge the blade in a log and then try to pry it apart. A really tough blade should be able to handle it, but it's certainly a lot more stressful to the blade than batoning. Personally, if I were to choose a survival blade, I'd want something that I am incapable of damaging (like an Ang Khola). I also wouldn't depend on a blade I had not tested. Even the best manufacturer lets a dud get out the door once in a great while. Testing your equipment isn't just prudent, it's a lot of fun.
I think so anyway. In a truly desperate situation, there's no telling what resources you'll have available or what difficulties you'll have to face. You may not want to use your blade as a prybar or an axe, but it may be the only thing at your disposal which will get the job done. If you know your equipment and it's capablities, then you'll only have to worry about your environment. Much better to eliminate the guesswork before it's your life on the line.
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I sent this picture and description of events in a cut and paste to my son in Iraq, who happens to be carrying the same knife and has been using it for the last 17 months over there and his reply is cut and pasted below in quotes.
"anyway ..for the knife i would i would call that abuse...if i were the owner i would replace the knife to save face..but its tech. abuse ..in my opinion..you cant blame the knife there as they asked too much of it..."
I think that says about as much as need be said.
I'm having second thoughts about my surprise at the knife breaking. Looking at that log and the size of it, it appears to me that what was needed to split that log was a splitting maul and/or wedge. I mean, you guys are seriously expecting a 7.5" blade to handle a 7.5" diameter or more log and even my wife thought that was really asking a whole lot of a knife. Since reading my son's response I have to reconsider my original reply.
In response to this post I just split a log of similar size tonight to start the fire in my wood stove and it took quite a few good wacks with a sledge and a hand axe to get it split and my log wasn't frozen and had no knots.
The more I study that photo the more I realize that you guys on that outing simply picked the wrong tool for the job at hand. From the sounds of things you had other tools available that were more properly fitted for the job. I'll be surprised if CS honors any warranty here at all. Hardened steel is simply not meant to be used as a splitting maul type of implement plain and simple.
"anyway ..for the knife i would i would call that abuse...if i were the owner i would replace the knife to save face..but its tech. abuse ..in my opinion..you cant blame the knife there as they asked too much of it..."
I think that says about as much as need be said.
I'm having second thoughts about my surprise at the knife breaking. Looking at that log and the size of it, it appears to me that what was needed to split that log was a splitting maul and/or wedge. I mean, you guys are seriously expecting a 7.5" blade to handle a 7.5" diameter or more log and even my wife thought that was really asking a whole lot of a knife. Since reading my son's response I have to reconsider my original reply.
In response to this post I just split a log of similar size tonight to start the fire in my wood stove and it took quite a few good wacks with a sledge and a hand axe to get it split and my log wasn't frozen and had no knots.
The more I study that photo the more I realize that you guys on that outing simply picked the wrong tool for the job at hand. From the sounds of things you had other tools available that were more properly fitted for the job. I'll be surprised if CS honors any warranty here at all. Hardened steel is simply not meant to be used as a splitting maul type of implement plain and simple.
Hi,
I think I disagree with most of the people here. I believe a survival knife should be able to skin an animal, cut kindeling for a fire and build a shelter. I don't think this covers chopping down a frozen tree or building a log cabin. I think that I would be worried about surviving not prospering. If I were thinking of populating the forest, I would bring an axe.
(Just an Opinion)
Mike Morris
I think I disagree with most of the people here. I believe a survival knife should be able to skin an animal, cut kindeling for a fire and build a shelter. I don't think this covers chopping down a frozen tree or building a log cabin. I think that I would be worried about surviving not prospering. If I were thinking of populating the forest, I would bring an axe.
(Just an Opinion)
Mike Morris
Gossman Knives
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It looks like the knife was just a defective product. When knives are made in a production situation, there is bound to be one that ends up defective. It happens with all kinds of products. I wouldn't blame the knife or the way it was being used. I feel full tang is the way to go for a "survival" knife. Stick or hidden tang knives tend to be not as strong in the tang/ricasso area. Just my opinion.
Scott
Scott
I use one of my trailmaster's just for the purposes of abusing it. I used it to demolish two bathrooms (alot of prying, pounding and chopping). I chopped and smashed cinder blocks filled with concrete (did leave small chips in the edge). I pryed and beat open a quality safe when I lost the keys. I hammered the knife to the end of the clip point down into a three foot, 30 inch diameter piece of tree trunk and pushed and pulled laterally with more than reasonable force trying to bend and break it. After reading this post, I wet the knife and stuck it in the freezer for twelve hours. I then took it out and immediately laid it flat across two 2x4's and started beating it with a hammer up and down the blade (including at the 90 degree tang juncture) and chopping at it with an Ontario SP Marine Combat, I then beat the hammer head with the spine of the trailmaster and chopped at the SP.
Beside alot of scratches, some small dings and chips in the edges, the trailmaster is still alive. If the weight of the knife didn't matter, I suspect it would make a very good, reliable survival blade.
Like someone already mentioned, considering our imperfect world, reports of these knives failing compared to the quantity sold leads me to believe that the fellow just had bad luck misapplying the knife.
I don't live where there are frozen tree stumps close by, but if someone's interested, I'll send my trusty trailmaster off to repeat the wood splitting scenario ( you've got to send it back if it passes).
Beside alot of scratches, some small dings and chips in the edges, the trailmaster is still alive. If the weight of the knife didn't matter, I suspect it would make a very good, reliable survival blade.
Like someone already mentioned, considering our imperfect world, reports of these knives failing compared to the quantity sold leads me to believe that the fellow just had bad luck misapplying the knife.
I don't live where there are frozen tree stumps close by, but if someone's interested, I'll send my trusty trailmaster off to repeat the wood splitting scenario ( you've got to send it back if it passes).
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Funny, we never see pics of the knives NOT breaking...
Seriously, we tend to harp on the failures but you seldom remember the ones that work. It seems to me all that the reported failures prove is.. the knives are used alot.
So when someone states that Knife X never broke, does that mean it is really good or just never been pushed too far. Nothing last forever so the proof a of a strong knife is not in it's never breaking (that only proves weak testing), but in Knife X survived This, That, the Other and only failed when Hell Broke Loose.
Of course, no one likes to hear about failure limits. A fire-proof safe only lasts so long in a blaze. Do they state Safe X only fails after a whole 60 minutes? No, that say it LASTS 60 minutes.
If companies demonstrated failure limits, people won't say "Wow! That knife went through HELL and back before succumbing." People only remember that, in the end, it broke.
It is ironic that when you ask a man if he lies; the man who admits to lying is more honest than the man who says he doesnt.
Seriously, we tend to harp on the failures but you seldom remember the ones that work. It seems to me all that the reported failures prove is.. the knives are used alot.
So when someone states that Knife X never broke, does that mean it is really good or just never been pushed too far. Nothing last forever so the proof a of a strong knife is not in it's never breaking (that only proves weak testing), but in Knife X survived This, That, the Other and only failed when Hell Broke Loose.
Of course, no one likes to hear about failure limits. A fire-proof safe only lasts so long in a blaze. Do they state Safe X only fails after a whole 60 minutes? No, that say it LASTS 60 minutes.
If companies demonstrated failure limits, people won't say "Wow! That knife went through HELL and back before succumbing." People only remember that, in the end, it broke.
It is ironic that when you ask a man if he lies; the man who admits to lying is more honest than the man who says he doesnt.
A lot of people speak about stress raisers, if the knife in question was hit on the spine of the blade there is precious little stress on the tang/blade juncture and you can feel all the force on your hand.
If you hit the handle when the blade is stuck then you have some stress on the juncture.
It looks like not everything was told, or we do have a prebroken blade that did not need much anything to brake.
TLM
If you hit the handle when the blade is stuck then you have some stress on the juncture.
It looks like not everything was told, or we do have a prebroken blade that did not need much anything to brake.
TLM
DaQo'tah Forge
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Oh,,,,one more thing I noted in the photo of the broken knife....
I noticed that the blade was about sunk into the wood about as far as it could be hit down,,,,,perhaps one hit more and you would see it all the way into the wood....
Well?....then what?
What would the guy do next?.....where would he next hit the knife with the hammer?.....the spine is gone, hitting there would not do,,,so the ONLY place left showing is the handle!
I think thats a chance to what actually happend,,,Now I was not there, I dont know for sure,,,But if I were the guy hitting the blade into that much solid wood, and I got it stuck that far into the wood,,,the next thing I would have to do is hit the tang/handle to see if I could drive the knife farther down into the wood to split it open.....
I would hit the tang,,,,,and there is a darn good chance I would also break the knife at that point too......
I noticed that the blade was about sunk into the wood about as far as it could be hit down,,,,,perhaps one hit more and you would see it all the way into the wood....
Well?....then what?
What would the guy do next?.....where would he next hit the knife with the hammer?.....the spine is gone, hitting there would not do,,,so the ONLY place left showing is the handle!
I think thats a chance to what actually happend,,,Now I was not there, I dont know for sure,,,But if I were the guy hitting the blade into that much solid wood, and I got it stuck that far into the wood,,,the next thing I would have to do is hit the tang/handle to see if I could drive the knife farther down into the wood to split it open.....
I would hit the tang,,,,,and there is a darn good chance I would also break the knife at that point too......
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Daqotah Forge brings up an interesting point, as I thought about that as well. Where ELSE are you going to hit the knife, considering how far down it is? This would explain the break.
The more I think about it, the more I think it was too much to ask of such a small knife. A trailmaster, I can see going through that.
Personally, I'd go with my HI Khuk for that type of job.
The more I think about it, the more I think it was too much to ask of such a small knife. A trailmaster, I can see going through that.
Personally, I'd go with my HI Khuk for that type of job.
Esav Benyamin
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4 Ranges said:
What WAS the real job?
Thinking about the mission itself, what they were trying to accomplish was teaching how to use a normal carry knife for heavier and more varied use than it was designed for. I'd say the break was a good thing to see.
As someone said already, this was meant as a survival experience, not camping. Of course an ax or a khukuri would work better. So would a propane stove!
And think about this. For an experienced man under familiar conditions, an axe or a khukuri might be a good tool. For inexperienced youngsters, cold, hungry, and tired, they might be dangerous. Slowly batonning through wood is safer than chopping with a heavy blade -- maybe into a leg.
DaQo'tah Forge
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Perhaps guys with better computer screens can answer this question...
But I think I see two things in the photo that I didnt notice before,,,
First, the handle,,,the way the broken tang is cut, matches up with the handle in such a way as to make me believe that the "top" of the handle is faced our direction...right?
2nd....on my screen,,,I think I even see some marks on the top of the handle about 1 inch back from where the guard would be.,,,could they be hammer marks as well?
It just a thought, but "if" I were going to hit the handle of this type of knife,,,,a knife with such a HUGE guard,,,,then I would aim my hammer to make sure I didnt hit the guard,,,,thus I would try to tap the handle about an inch behind the guard,,,about where I see on my computer screen some of what look like very fresh marks....
But I think I see two things in the photo that I didnt notice before,,,
First, the handle,,,the way the broken tang is cut, matches up with the handle in such a way as to make me believe that the "top" of the handle is faced our direction...right?
2nd....on my screen,,,I think I even see some marks on the top of the handle about 1 inch back from where the guard would be.,,,could they be hammer marks as well?
It just a thought, but "if" I were going to hit the handle of this type of knife,,,,a knife with such a HUGE guard,,,,then I would aim my hammer to make sure I didnt hit the guard,,,,thus I would try to tap the handle about an inch behind the guard,,,about where I see on my computer screen some of what look like very fresh marks....
There was no "hammer". They were using the branch with all the impact marks that's leaning against the fire pit as a baton. The fact that both the branch and the firewood being chopped were frozen had something to do with the result. Second, IIRC, the batoning was done on the blade forward of the wood while the handle was held in the choppers other hand.
I'd like to know if there was any lateral prying in addition to the batoning.
I'd like to know if there was any lateral prying in addition to the batoning.
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Esav:
but why break a knife to gain this experience, when simple common sense dictates that it's the wrong tool for the job? Just by LOOKING at the log and the knife I know it's the wrong tool.
Furthermore, speaking of survival, why put it through that type of job and risk breaking it...when you KNOW you'll need it later on for cutting MORE wood, or even possible self-defense (this is a survival scenario, after all), and who knows what else?
It can be argued that they have to use what they have (7.5" RS) for the jobs they need (building fire, etc.).
Well, if the job is to build a fire, and they have a small knife...can't they get SMALLER BRANCHES to build a fire? Does it HAVE to be this big log? They were able to get a small enough log to hammer the darned thing into a HUGE log...why not get small logs the size of your hammering log, chop those up with your RS, and make a fire with that?
To me, survival means working with what you have. If I get lost in the woods, and all I have is my 5.5" greco whisper on me, I'm not going to ask it to chop wood. If I ask it to chop huge logs and it fails, that's MY fault, not the knife's. In that scenario, not only will I be cold, but I just lost a good (and perhaps only) survival tool.
Know your tools, know its job(s), know its limits. That's survival, to me.
but why break a knife to gain this experience, when simple common sense dictates that it's the wrong tool for the job? Just by LOOKING at the log and the knife I know it's the wrong tool.
Furthermore, speaking of survival, why put it through that type of job and risk breaking it...when you KNOW you'll need it later on for cutting MORE wood, or even possible self-defense (this is a survival scenario, after all), and who knows what else?
It can be argued that they have to use what they have (7.5" RS) for the jobs they need (building fire, etc.).
Well, if the job is to build a fire, and they have a small knife...can't they get SMALLER BRANCHES to build a fire? Does it HAVE to be this big log? They were able to get a small enough log to hammer the darned thing into a HUGE log...why not get small logs the size of your hammering log, chop those up with your RS, and make a fire with that?
To me, survival means working with what you have. If I get lost in the woods, and all I have is my 5.5" greco whisper on me, I'm not going to ask it to chop wood. If I ask it to chop huge logs and it fails, that's MY fault, not the knife's. In that scenario, not only will I be cold, but I just lost a good (and perhaps only) survival tool.
Know your tools, know its job(s), know its limits. That's survival, to me.
Learning limitations is part of the process. Lots of folks look at a knife like the CS RS and believe the hype. Now they know that valuable survival tools can be destroyed if you ask too much of them. It also teaches them to be very careful with what they select for tools if they only get to pick one.
Stress risers, low temp steel performance, a rapid rate of loading... good stuff. This thread was very enlightening. That knife was subjected to all of the above and it failed. There's a lesson there someplace.
Stress risers, low temp steel performance, a rapid rate of loading... good stuff. This thread was very enlightening. That knife was subjected to all of the above and it failed. There's a lesson there someplace.
It does look like the failure happened at a poorly designed point (a 90 degree angle). It is always suspect when a knife fails right there. However, does anyone have a diagram of what the knife looks like without handle or guard?
And, quite honestly, nothing that I do with a knife is "abuse" to me. Yes, I have broken many. The point is that, if I need to dig out a grounding rod, split wood, cut a damaged tire off a vehicle, or pry open a container, and the only real tool I have is my knife, then that is what I need it to do.
If you go camping, carrying plenty of gear is no problem. If you are in the field (military), backpacking, or have a hunting site that is out far, you want to keep your load down some.
I am military and carry a pistol on my leg (for the most part). Along with that I have a multi-tool (these are a must) and a medium sized knife (blade about 6 or 7 inches). When backpacking or out roughing it I want a large blade (8 or 9 inches) for chopping and also a medium folder (3 to 4 inches) for slicing - food prep stuff usually. I've been thinking about replacing the folder with a small and thin fixed blade, which would be easier to clean up.
Not to mention, I always carry a small durable flashlight.
And, quite honestly, nothing that I do with a knife is "abuse" to me. Yes, I have broken many. The point is that, if I need to dig out a grounding rod, split wood, cut a damaged tire off a vehicle, or pry open a container, and the only real tool I have is my knife, then that is what I need it to do.
If you go camping, carrying plenty of gear is no problem. If you are in the field (military), backpacking, or have a hunting site that is out far, you want to keep your load down some.
I am military and carry a pistol on my leg (for the most part). Along with that I have a multi-tool (these are a must) and a medium sized knife (blade about 6 or 7 inches). When backpacking or out roughing it I want a large blade (8 or 9 inches) for chopping and also a medium folder (3 to 4 inches) for slicing - food prep stuff usually. I've been thinking about replacing the folder with a small and thin fixed blade, which would be easier to clean up.
Not to mention, I always carry a small durable flashlight.
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