CS Recon Scout Fails Miserably

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I used to have a Recon Scout,thought it was a great knife.The day when I see a Busse with the handle broken off will be my last day of knifecollecting.
 
The General said:
A very good friend of mine has looked at the picture of the knife breaking and pointed out that this type of failure is almost certain to happen if you allow the handle to drop below the level of the spine. This is a point I agree on. Knife failure due to user error. No question in my mind. Not a failure of the knife.
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EXACTLY!!! It's about time!
 
First it was "abuse". Then it was the wrong tool for the job. Now the defective knife's failure, even after pics of more extensive use of an identical model with no problems, is "user error".
Some of you people are just plain retarded.
 
OwenM said:
First it was "abuse". Then it was the wrong tool for the job. Now the defective knife's failure, even after pics of more extensive use of an identical model with no problems, is "user error".
Some of you people are just plain retarded.
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You tell 'em, Owen. I'm 110% in your camp, bud. How it could be every possible explanation except manufacturer defect (aka a lemon) is totally beyond my comprehension.

At least it wasn't suggested that it was a user error to allow sweat near the guard that caused corrosion in the steel, leading to structural weakness... Hey, wait... that's not a bad idea...

I'm still waiting for the CS verdict though. ;)

-j
 
The General said:
A very good friend of mine has looked at the picture of the knife breaking and pointed out that this type of failure is almost certain to happen if you allow the handle to drop below the level of the spine. This is a point I agree on. Knife failure due to user error. No question in my mind. Not a failure of the knife.
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I think that is the lowest standard of performance I have ever seen for performance in a steel knife. I am with Owen. Raise your standards people, it is not like he was using a fillet blade, that would be user error.

-Cliff
 
DaQo'tah Forge said:
If I find out from him that you are right and they are the same, then I have to disagree with the maker of the Recon Scout about what steel to use on a combat knife....5160 steel is not the type of steel I would use for a combat knife,,,,,not hard enough ,,,not rust proof enough,,,For a true combat knife I would want a steel that could get very hard as I would want my knife to be about as sharp as any steel could get, and then MORE SHARP on top of that!...I would gladly give up other things in order to get a hard edge.

...
Combat knives on the other hand, have a 1st need to be sharp,,,,life and death sharp,,,,,this means that a combat knife is going to need a steel that can get hard.

...

Combat knives in history have always had to balance the same problems...getting hard, and getting broke,,,,

...
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I'm sure that this is based on real time military experience. Sarcasm intended.

Sorry. You ever wonder why swords and sabers are only for dress now?

Why in the world are soldiers carrying the same knives for combat that we sand crabs carry for "survival?" Rhetorical question.

You know, Swamp Rat, Busse, Ferhman, CRK, Strider? A few Doziers here and there? Sarcasm again.

Because it's 99% prying, bashing, chopping, hacking, slicing, smashing and pounding and only 1% (surely even less, in reality) gurking someone. Even leaving wetwork to specops guys, why carry a Fairbairn/Sykes that'll leave the last 1/2" in a bone. Any current or ex military see this any different? Please chime in. This is based on MY experience which may vary wildly from yours.

As has been repeatedly mentioned we're talking steel over a quarter inch in thickness. Broken by normal human strength with the aid of a couple of pieces of wood.

My main FB is currently a SRKW Camp Tramp. I can't begin to imagine putting enough force on this (without some huge mechanical advantage) to even (permanently) bend the blade.

This would include driving a few inches into a tree by pounding on the butt of the resperine handle to drive it in then jumping on it. Repeatedly. With my now 275 lbs.

If it's not tough enough to be a survival knife, then it's not even close to being a combat knife.

I have used this frequently for batonning. I love hatchets and carry one regularly. BUT laying a blade on a log and bashing it with a "stick" is way way way safer than swinging around a pound of sharp steel which you need to control to keep it outta your shin...

My recommendation, DaQo'tah: Stick to fantasy blades where no one has any expectations of your blades except looks.
 
biogon said:
I'm still waiting for the CS verdict though. ;)
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Me too!...

I think any maker of a knife would be very interested in each of his knives that fail while being used.....

I also would hope that the maker has no problem handing out a new blade whenever a broken one is returned...that just a good policy to have,,,it sets you above others if they dont and you do...

(oh, I think this is the 409th posting on this topic,,,with luck I think we can drag this out until we get into the 600s....LOL)
 
mwelch8404 said:
Because it's 99% prying, bashing, chopping, hacking, slicing, smashing and pounding and only 1% (surely even less, in reality) gurking someone. Even leaving wetwork to specops guys, why carry a Fairbairn/Sykes that'll leave the last 1/2" in a bone. Any current or ex military see this any different? Please chime in. This is based on MY experience which may vary wildly from yours.
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Not too much chopping and prying from what I've seen/heard. Mostly light cutting and cleaning - a lot of blade get messed up scraping carbon out of M16s. Quite a few blades get destroyed by arc welding when working on electrical equipment - I like a blade with an exposed tang, so I am very, very careful about this.

DaQo'tah Forge may be basing his statement on his experiences with Klingon swords. While I must acknowledge his superior knowledge in that arena, I don't think he has any real idea what he's talking about when it comes to high preformance combat/survival knives. Knives ought to be sharp.
 
mwelch8404 said:
I'm sure that this is based on real time military experience. Sarcasm intended.

Why in the world are soldiers carrying the same knives for combat that we sand crabs carry for "survival?" Rhetorical question.
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Actually, most don't (or didn't). "Survival" knives are generally a civilian affectation. Once the multi-tool is chosen, the rest is gravy and generally so much excess baggage. A good, sturdy folder has a place on the LBE, of course. Most of the knife conversations in SF centered around what made a good jumpmaster knife. Large knives (in this definition, a Kabar was about max) just weren't carried, much less jumped. Large "survival" knives were generally considered a true mark of a Leg--especially if worn upside down on the LBE. The principal selection criteria for any knife carried was its presence on a rack in the PX.
 
Will P.....you dint have to be stuck talking about me,,,you can talk to me.

I would add that a Great many things have I written, on a great many issues in contention, yet never once would I treat the comments made by others with like manners* as I have noted from others about myself .

I concider posting on Blade Forum a privilege enjoyed by all , not just for the few who happen to agree with me,,,,

Or is that DaQ does no longer gets to add to a conversation topic,,,,but only gets to 'be" the conversation topic?

I have offered my voice to this conversation in all honesty,,,I have no dark motives,,,I don t seek to persuade anyone nor form judgments against people who offer their honest opinions,,,,If you have read a post from my hand that you call into question, then as each post here is numbered, just list for me what you call into question and allow me to farther explane my argument...


(* I have tried my best to overlook the childish comments made by such cowards, to me that are dark souls and being beneath my level of concern)
 
I thought most didn't carry large knives, mostly as they already have a bayonet, so other then that all most would carry is a single bladed quick opening folder (tactical folder/automatic) and a multi-tool.
 
The most common knives I've seen are CRKT M16's and Spyderco's. Affordability and availibility...

DaQ - other people have explain already and in detail why you are prvoking a rude reception.
 
We know it broke.

We know it was cold.

We know it was being struck somewhere with a piece of wood. I take it that it was struck more than once.

We know it was buried almost its full width in the log but with the tip exposed as shown in the first picture.

It looks like the knife came to rest at an angle of 20-25 degrees from the horizontal. It could have rotated up as the handle broke off.

I can assume, but I do not know, that the user was pushing down on the handle while striking the point end were it was exposed, putting the top of the failure area in tension AND that the failure crack started at the top and ran down.

I can't tell from the picture where the crack starts in relation to the right angles at the tang/blade junction.

We do not know if the knife had a flaw as sold.

We don't know if the knife had a crack before this final work.

We don't, I think, know how it was used or abused before this final work

We don't, I think, know if the user was rocking the blade through the work or prying laterally to open the crack. ( I have seen such use many, many times. I have even done it myself within limits that I feel in the knife. I do not strike the knife while "prying" or rocking because I was taught that such is unwise.)

We don't know if the user was more like the Hulk or my Aunt Freida (4'10"). Doubtless somewhere between.

I submit, with respect to all here (and some who have consulted off the forum), that we don't know enough to reach any conclusion about why this individual knife failed on this occasion. I say this fully confessing that I would have been surprised as the dickens if such a massive knife broke when I was using it to baton, but I have been using knives, large and small (but never folding) to baton for forty years and never had one break in the process.

I hope we can continue this discussion on a rational basis. I have asked the originator of this thread for some information that might be helpful.
 
Will P. said:
DaQ - other people have explain already and in detail why you are prvoking a rude reception.
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again,,,,I have writen a great number of things,,,,about a great number of ideas,,,Yet, each post is numbered and so if ever, ever, I (or anyone else) posts something that you (or anyone else) calls into question, then just list the post # in question and allow for a guy to have a chance to explane his reasons,,,,

But to just attempt to poke fun of people just because they happen to disagree?...well, if thats all you guys got in the tank, then why dont you keep that news to yourself friends.

It's like , sometimes I think that there are a few guys around this forum that think only "they" have the right to post here,,,,,as if they alone are a voice worth hearing,,,,

Well I got news for you boys,,,,Each voice is important, each voice is equall,,,from guys you think are smart, to guys you think are fools,,,each has a voice and should be given an equal chance to post free of bad manners...
Dont you think so?

Now I look at the photo of the knife in question, and I have a point of view,,,and Im not afraid to share my view, and to answer questions about my views,,,But I dont start spitting at my computer screen if another guys happens to take a different point of view on the matter,,,thats what a debate and learning is based on,,,
And personal attacks have no room to be here,,,,I dont see the need to use personal attacks when my arguement is strong,,,only guys who doubt their own views do such things...

What if I started to poke fun of people for being divorced, or they haveing posted gay-porn on another topic on the BLADE forum ?.....would not that be just the easy way out of actually answering a challenge?

Would that not show a weak arguement on my side, and a lack of faith in my ability to stand toe-to-toe with others?
 
Peoria46 said:
Actually, most don't (or didn't). "Survival" knives are generally a civilian affectation. Once the multi-tool is chosen, the rest is gravy and generally so much excess baggage. A good, sturdy folder has a place on the LBE, of course. Most of the knife conversations in SF centered around what made a good jumpmaster knife. Large knives (in this definition, a Kabar was about max) just weren't carried, much less jumped. Large "survival" knives were generally considered a true mark of a Leg--especially if worn upside down on the LBE. The principal selection criteria for any knife carried was its presence on a rack in the PX.
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I started out in the pre- multi-tool days. Carried a Case Mako, a V-Nox and a pair of 4-wr Vise-Grips. I was a "leg."

First duty station in the Navy was 3 years with the Marines. (Okinawa.)

Got out, went in the NG. Later went Active, but Arty. We DID make fun of the big knives. New one guy (Cop in a local town) that had one of those bug shiny Buck things. Sure LOOKED mean.

My point was that "Swamp Rat, Busse, Ferhman, CRK, Strider" ( I could probably add TOPS to the list) make their knives to be both good "combat" and good "survival knives." The traits are generally the same. I do not recall, and don't believe personally, that a "fighting knife" is what is REALLY needed for field use. Yes -there were a couple of those Gerber Mk 1 and II. Sure LOOKED cool. Ususally only saw these carried once or twice...

I must have just been in the wrong place. I was only once issued a bayonet. We were not issued K-Bars, etc either.

I cut commo wire, barbed and razor wire, steel and plastic banding, pryed open crates, cut foliage for cammo, sand bags, pounded nails, pulled nails, even, shudder, dug once in a while.

As I said, now that I'm an old fat civi, I can afford a Camp Tramp - and wished I'd had it back then.
 
Thomas Linton said:
We don't know if the user was more like the Hulk ...
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The baton should break before the knife. The only way to break a knife like that would be to use a metal baton, and I have tried that, I almost broke the bones in my hand trying to press down on the handle under the heavy impacts. Your hand isn't anywhere near the resilence of steel.

-Cliff
 
Can someone explain how you can break a 1.4" carbon-steel blade without levering it? What is the definition of the heat/stress riser and how does it weaken the blade (if at all)?

1. Either it was levered sideways.
or
2. Bad heat treat, too brittle, fluke?

I really don't want to propagate this thread, but I do want to understand.
 
This is a very HOT topics. But, it is a very interesting too. Let's try to keep it in good way with patience.
Let me do some comments.

I think the Nutnfancy , who started this topics with an explanation of the problem, gave the true answer in his second contribution. We know clearly,
1. the first Recon Scout broke (batoning). No excuse, no explanation (different guesses, however). Was it a lemon, a bad tang construction, bad heat treating, poor QC, etc.

2. the second Recon Scout, as Nutnfancy said,
I am pleased to report that my RS passed with flying colors during this three day hard core expedition.
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MY conclusion is that the first Recon Scout was obviously defect, and the second one is an excellent one. Now, it is rather well known that some companies, e.g. Ontario, CS, ... sometimes are not reliable, if you are bad-lucky you may get some knife with a bad HT. I remember that Jeff Randall tested a Cold Steel LTC Khukri in the jungle. The first one fractured (poor heat treating), but the second one was very good.

What would I do if I decide to buy a Recon Scout? Well, I would try (check) it AT HOME (some abuse, like batoning, bending, shoping, etc.) before I go outdoors. If it passes a test then you have a good one, and you can trust it. Similarly, I try any new folder doing a moderate spine whack test.

Finally, although I like the blade design of Recon Scout very much, the Swamp Rat Ratweiler would be a much better choice. Unfortunatly, one could get it only from one dealer in Europe (in Germany), and the price is astronomical (about $380, with sheath), no taxes included.

Franco
 
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