CS Recon Scout Fails Miserably

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Again,,,you asked ME what I would want in a Camp knife,,,,and why a camp knife fits a need a little bit better than a Combat knife,,,

Thats why we have camp knives, by the way...LOL

As far as turning one knife into another?..well.,,thats sounds kinda silly, but hey,,,why not?..."Hand me that Ranbo III knife, I wish to grind it down to trout knife.",,LOL

Now as far as your claim that Carbon V is the same is 5160?

Well I'm sure not the person to ask about that....I have not the Slightest idea if Carbon V is equal to 5160....As far as I know the only person I take such questions to here on Blade Forum is Mete,,,I guess I could ask...

If I find out from him that you are right and they are the same, then I have to disagree with the maker of the Recon Scout about what steel to use on a combat knife....5160 steel is not the type of steel I would use for a combat knife,,,,,not hard enough ,,,not rust proof enough,,,For a true combat knife I would want a steel that could get very hard as I would want my knife to be about as sharp as any steel could get, and then MORE SHARP on top of that!...I would gladly give up other things in order to get a hard edge.

I like 5160 for a camp knife
5160 steel makes a good camp knife,,,,its close enough I guess so that it would also make a good survival knife, (However Im not sure of the rust problem of 5160 steels)
and I think we are all in agreement, that a true survival knife should be of a steel that will bend, but not break,,,,a survival knife does not need a real hard edge becsuse it does not need to be very very sharp, so we can give up some hardness as long as we get back the strongest steel we can...

a camp knife needs to be kinda hard and sharp,,,,not real hard, not real sharp,,,,,so we need a steel that will take a good edge, and not be to hard that it breaks easly. however the never-ending trade off of steel is that the harder the steel, the more likely it is to snap under some stress...

Combat knives on the other hand, have a 1st need to be sharp,,,,life and death sharp,,,,,this means that a combat knife is going to need a steel that can get hard.

The Katana of Japan is a combat weapon that also has a type of steel on it's cutting edge that is very very hard....but this made it very easy to snap, so the Japanese smiths answered this problem by welding a soft steel inside the shell of harder steel.....

Combat knives in history have always had to balance the same problems...getting hard, and getting broke,,,,

Now to learn why the maker of the broken knife didnt wish to call his knife a camp knife, I suggest you ask him,,,because only he knows....I dont know.

You have a guess?,,,good,,,I bet I do too,,,But only the maker of the knife in question has the ability to answer why he felt that his knife fit into the "combat" heading,,,,and not into the "Camping" heading...

Perhaps he knew a few things about his knife that we dont?...
Perhaps the name "Combat" is talking about the types of use he had in mind for it when he designed it?...
I dont know,,,

All we do know for sure is that in the ad that was posted about it, the maker seems to make a big deal out of two things,,,First, that the knife is a "Combat" knife,,,this is talked about many times so we understand what can be expected of it.

And the 2nd thing I remember from the posted ad of the knife is, that it's a cheap knife...
The maker has the cheap price of the knife as a very important part of his ad....this also kinda tells the reader a bit more of what can be expected of the blade...

We got ourselves a cheap-combat knife..
Now we know how to treat it......
 
fair enough.


DaQo'tah Forge said:
As far as turning one knife into another?..well.,,thats sounds kinda silly, but hey,,,why not?..."Hand me that Ranbo III knife, I wish to grind it down to trout knife.",,LOL
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not at all what i meant, or what i said. change the fittings, as in the handle covering, and the gaurd, and you have what you described to be a camp knife, edge below or at fingers, no gaurd, good steel, full tang, pinned handle material.

the gaurd isnt welded to the knife, so its not part of the knife, by changing the fittings you in no way grind on or alter the knife itself, only the fittings.


the only modification to the knife i would suggest, wich i would suggest even if you were to keep the knife fittings exactly how they are, is to round out the tang junctions.



but ya....

given the geometry of it, and the steel, if it was properly heat treated there is no reason for a knife of that size to fail in that task.
 
raker said:
I don't think he knows what would make a good knife for anything besides cutting hay strings, casttrating animals, and slicing some cheese once in a while.

And he probably made a knife for each task
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as a matter fact, the reason I decided to learn how to forge a knife is that I didnt like the designs of what is sold in the stores.

But I would admit to one thing,,,I do NOT use the same knife to do animal casttrating, as I do for fixing dinner......

Use the same knife?....God help me if my wife ever caught me doing such a thing....
 
D.F
Use the same knife?....God help me if my wife ever caught me doing such a thing....
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Hmm. the you certainly don't wan't to know how the Sami used to castrate reindeer.

TLM
 
Seth,

Thank you for the good discussion. I see what you mean about the SRK vs RS's stock thickness -- didn't see the weights.

Interesting.

TLM said:
Hmm. the you certainly don't wan't to know how the Sami used to castrate reindeer.
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*wince*

Just reading that hurts. ;)

-j
 
Some people have posted that outward appearances of a knife don't count....But I disagree, I believe that the inner design nature should come forth in the outward appearance of the blade.

Some people don't seem to think the design intents of the maker are important to take into account when useing a knife in the woods....I disagree. I think that the intentions of the maker for his knife are key to understanding how the maker came to make the knife he did.

Some people still dont think contacting a maker about a knife that failed is needed, ,,,I disagree, I would hope that the first person contacted about a failed knife would be the maker so that questions can asked and answered, and any problems with knife construction can be addressed.

If a Recon knife is declared by the maker to have been specifically designed and manufactured with certain types of work in mind, and should the owner of that knife attempt to do this type of work and experience a blade breakage.....then the knife is at fault and the maker should become aware of this failure.

However if any knife is abused in manners not intended for it's use, then the knife can not be held to blame for all of our decisions...
 
DaQo'tah , your just stating your opinions ad nauseam and those opinions are in the minority . Personally I don't understand how you keep going on with it . A 5/16'' thick blade should be able to handle batoning regardless of shape , name or intended use as stated by the maker . If a knife that robust breaks from batoning wood , something was wrong with it . For me , it's mainly the thickness of the blade that dictates what it can or can't be used for .

On a side note . The only reason a knife is made of thick steel (be it 1/4'' or 5/16'') is so it will not break from batoning , prying , digging or chopping . I have never once read or heard a knife maker state "I need to make this knife 5/16'' so it will be an excellent slicer" .
 
If I have ever writen something that you disagree with,,,just let me know,,,I believe all our posts are numbered so that we can keep track of such things.

But I believe that everyone should feel free to post their own thoughts on the topics,,,I would Never tell someone else that they should stop posting, (that would be rude)
 
DaQo'tah Forge said:
Combat knives on the other hand, have a 1st need to be sharp,,,,life and death sharp,,,,,this means that a combat knife is going to need a steel that can get hard.

The Katana of Japan is a combat weapon that also has a type of steel on it's cutting edge that is very very hard....but this made it very easy to snap, so the Japanese smiths answered this problem by welding a soft steel inside the shell of harder steel.....

QUOTE]

With regards the Katana... Its often consructed from folded steel to equal out the impurites and carbon content of the steel of the day, nothing to do with the hardness. The hardness was accomplished by a differental heat treat using clay to form an Hamon or temper line. The edge was often RC of 60 or higher and the spine 50 or less. I say often as there is GREAT variation!

Pattern weld and Wootz were different again. It sounds to me like you are talking about a three layer lamination system that was and still is used in Scandi blades. I have hand forged such a blade myself. This was partly the need to use a steel core for the cutting edge and the sides were iron which supported the steel and greatly reduced the cost of materials. Quality steel was traditionaly shockingly hard to make and very expensive. Steel nowerdays can be bought in very high quality runs and consistancy is a given. Not the case in the old days.

With regards the combat knife and the need for a hard edge to get sharp... You really have no idea what you are talking about do you? 5160 can be hardened to a point where a razor sharp edge can be attained and it will hold such an edge with ease. The idea that a stainless steel is better for a combat knife is equally nonsense. Any reasonable steel with a proper heat treat can be turned into an efficient combat knife.

Look at some of the classic combat knives. Randall 1 and 2, Ka-Bar... I really could talk about this for hours. Some will say I am being arrogant here, but if you want to present thoughts as fact, you need to have an idea what you are talking about.

A very good friend of mine has looked at the picture of the knife breaking and pointed out that this type of failure is almost certain to happen if you allow the handle to drop below the level of the spine. This is a point I agree on. Knife failure due to user error. No question in my mind. Not a failure of the knife.
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But I believe that everyone should feel free to post their own thoughts on the topics,,,I would Never tell someone else that they should stop posting, (that would be rude)

I will be glad when he comes back and tells us what the factory man said.
People that use knives have one opinion and the others have theirs.
 
General, assuming that the picture shows the knife in situ at the moment of failure, ask our friend if the knife would have likely failed if the the top of the tang was level with the top of the blade (continuous line) or if there was no right angle at the tang/blade junction. Where do we assume that the final blow fell? On the exposed point (putting the top of the tang/blade junction in tension)? Over the fulcum point? In the guard area? (Nutnfancy might be able to clear the last point up.)

My HI khukuris are 5160 ("spring steel"). They can take and hold a paper-cutting convex edge that is quite suitable for chopping the snot out of hardwood. I think they are at about R55 or R56.

Corrosion resistance aside and assuming equal skill in heat-treating, I cannot imagine a single reason to prefer "stainless" steel to non-"stainless" steel for a hard-use knife.
 
raker said:
I will be glad when he comes back and tells us what the factory man said.
People that use knives have one opinion and the others have theirs.
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I would hope that the factory would return a new knife for the one that broke regardless of the reason that the blade might have failed. There really should be a policy where they dont ask but just ship out a new knife for any that fails. Such a policy would help sell their knives because there would be no real risk in getting one no matter what use they are put to.
 
Thomas Linto said:
My HI khukuris are 5160 ("spring steel"). They can take and hold a paper-cutting convex edge that is quite suitable for chopping the snot out of hardwood. I think they are at about R55 or R56.

Corrosion resistance aside and assuming equal skill in heat-treating, I cannot imagine a single reason to prefer "stainless" steel to non-"stainless" steel for a hard-use knife.
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Im a firm believer in 5160 myself and have had fun over the last two years learning to forge down Load shafts of 5160 steel....

I believe it is a great steel for outdoor field knives too...

I would perhaps not use it for a survival knife only due to the nature of the use and storage of such a knife being one where salty sea water as well as long term storage in survival packs might call into question the use of non-stainless steels.
 
General:
A very good friend of mine has looked at the picture of the knife breaking and pointed out that this type of failure is almost certain to happen if you allow the handle to drop below the level of the spine.
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????

TLM
 
DaQo'tah Forge said:
I would perhaps not use it for a survival knife only due to the nature of the use and storage of such a knife being one where salty sea water as well as long term storage in survival packs might call into question the use of non-stainless steels.
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They must have moved North Dakota.
 
Hi,
This is an absolutely fascinating discussion! Nutnfancy, have you ever read any of the writings of Mors Kochanski or Ray Mears. Far from seeing a small (or large) axe or hatchet or tomahawk as a heavy, largely superfluous piece of kit. Rather they see it as essential. It strikes me that if you are in timber country you plan your kit to suit timber country. The same applies to desert jungle or arctic. In timber country a small axe or tomahawk would be indispensible, to me at any rate. Expecting one knife to do everything a small knife and a hatchet will do is like expecting an S.U.V. to be a sports car and a van. In production knives at least the production process will always be a compromise between best practices and economy. You just cannot win.
I subscribe to the theory that this knife failed because of the stress point caused by the less than perfect design. I wonder if the same would have occurred in a differentially heat treated blade?
You have chosen to replace the Cold Steel knife (maybe they should change the name of the Company!) with a knife costing, what, twice as much, if not more? You should get a better blade for the extra cost.
You are, however essentially correct. In my opinion the knife should have held up. It is a truism that a survival knife is defined as whatever knife you have with you in a survival situation. If all you have is a C.S. Recon Scout then this will have to perform, particularly given the claims which Cold Steel make for the knife.
One thing worth noting, and I know this is controversial and a little cynical is that Cold Steel will replace this knife free or at least refund the purchase price. If you are in the brown stuff and reliant on a flawed design or a poorly made knife they cannot replace or refund your life!
Regards
Tack
 
When I was in the Navy, my aviation survival knife was made of 1095. Other than para-riggers doing their checks on my survival vest, it never came of of its sheath and when I turned it in after three years it was rust free. Guam, Diego Garcia, Kwajelein, Wake Island, Okinawa et al. Not benign and the knife didn't rust. It takes very maintenance to keep a knife from rusting.
 
The General said:
DaQo'tah Forge said:
The Katana of Japan is a combat weapon that also has a type of steel on it's cutting edge that is very very hard....but this made it very easy to snap, so the Japanese smiths answered this problem by welding a soft steel inside the shell of harder steel.....
\QUOTE]

With regards the Katana... Its often consructed from folded steel to equal out the impurites and carbon content of the steel of the day, nothing to do with the hardness. The hardness was accomplished by a differental heat treat using clay to form an Hamon or temper line. The edge was often RC of 60 or higher and the spine 50 or less. I say often as there is GREAT variation!
Click to expand...

At this time Im right in the middle of finishing my first katana..
To understand how the Japanese answered the problem of how to make a Katana both hard to take a fine edge, yet strong so it will not break I have been reading the teachings of the Japanese smith's themselves..
... http://daqotah.tripod.com/id9.html

from this I get the information I have posted for you...
Click to expand...
 
Thomas Linton said:
They must have moved North Dakota.
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Interesting,,,never thought of what would the true Survival Knife designed for North Dakota, look like?

It might be just any knife duck-taped to a big can of bug spray?
 
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