CS Recon Tanto vs Birch log. Winner: Birch log

[t1mpani]

I heard no dissing. Nobody's feeling dissed here! But you're quite right when you say Cold Steel would consider this abuse. I broke the front inch (or so, it's been too long) off the tip of a Ghurka Khukuri--yep, their heavy one--when I was chopping wood. I hadn't intended to hit with the tip, I actually caught a higher branch with it mid-swing but it popped it right off. Called CS about it and when I told them what I was doing when I broke it I was told, "axes and saws are for trees." I asked what in the hell kind of grass clearing I'd be doing that would require a 5/16" thick khuk, then, and was pretty much politely told to sit on it.
When you've got a good one, you've got a good one. I had a bad one, they didn't seem to care.

 

[StuntDouble]

Here's a bad pic of the tang of my SRK for those of you that are curious.


SRK

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Called CS about it and when I told them what I was doing when I broke it I was told, "axes and saws are for trees."

That is kind of hard to argue considering how they promote their knives.

-Cliff

 

[knifetester]

No, lots of people view it as extremely abusive, it is kind of hard to argue this though when considering the experience of individuals like Jim Aston :


http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/leuko.html

Check out the pictures at the bottom of the page.

I would find it hard to imagine Cold Steel would admit their knives are not as durable as the ones Jim has used for batoning.

-Cliff

Exactly.

I have used some fairly thin blades for baton work, both felling saplings and splitting. Yes, on thinner knives like Mora and the like, more care must be used. However this kind of use is far from abusive.

A knife like the CS RT should have been able to accomplish baton work, including chisling through knots and being hammered through twisty grain without failure. It should not even be an issue. Even with poor technique, it should not have been phased.

What is poor technique?
Well. Try to avoid hitting the blade sideways, don't hit the knife on the corner of the spine, especially with a hard baton (like a framing hammer). Use the clearest wood you can, avoid knots if possible. If you are using a thin, stick tanged knife (like the mora) don't pull the knife from side to side to break the wood apart, you are more likely to break the knife.

On the other hand, take a heavy duty knife like the Ranger RD9.You can drive the knife through a knot, stop and torque the blade sideways, and if you are strong enough and the wood is immobolized, the wood will split before the knife breaks, not even a concern.

Try to keep the blade level delicate knife. With an overbuilt knife like the RD9, it won't make a bit of difference, it is thick, tough steel. Bash the ehck out of it, it will take it and far more.

What about this fulcrum business? I have heard all sorts of people (check KFC especially) proclaim the knife breaking properties of the dreaded fulcrum. "If a fulcrum touches your knife, it will instantly break." I have even heard that the shadow of a fulcrum falling across your blade will cause knives to shatter like glass. Mommy knives tell fairly tales about fulcrums to their little knives to scare them into eating their spinach. Oh No, the dreaded fulcrum, run your tang off before it is snapped. . . .


What to make of it? Beats me, but I hope I never run across a fulcrum in the woods!!!


Seriously, a well made knife designed for hard use, as the CS line surely is promoted as, should be able to tolerate this type of work. Tip up, tip down. . Should not make a bit of difference. An old Hickory kitchen knife, a fraction of the thickness should be able to handle it. If not, you have either bad steel, bad heat treat, bad design or a combination thereof.

IF people like Jim Aston, Mors Kochanski and about a zillion others can use their mora knives to baton with, it is laughable to suggest this use is abusive and outsife the intended scope of a recon tanto given the almost abusrd level of hype Thompson uses in promoting his knives. Laughable.

But that is just my opinion. . . .

 

[t1mpani]

That is kind of hard to argue considering how they promote their knives.

-Cliff

You're right. I should have told them I broke the tip off killing a charging boar.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

If you are using a thin, stick tanged knife (like the mora) don't pull the knife from side to side to break the wood apart, you are more likely to break the knife.

This is pretty much the only real way to break the knife, outside of hitting the handle with the baton. It isn't difficult to break a 1/8" knife prying, if you want to leverage the wood then twist the handle, don't torque the blade sideways.

... I hope I never run across a fulcrum in the woods!!!

You see them all the time snipe hunting and when fishing for red herring.

...it is laughable to suggest this use is abusive and outsife the intended scope of a recon tanto

Alvin made some comments awhile ago on rec.knives about how the internet was one of the best things to happen to the knife industry from the point of view of eliminating hype. Jim's work is a prime example.

A lot of people talking about batoning before Jim, I recall it being used by several people selling tacticals as showing the extreme toughness of their knives, it was crazy use. Then Jim does it with a $5 blade 1/8" thick.

Kind of takes all the "high speed" out of the promotion in a hurry. Cougar did the same thing to the tanto vs door, Sorg to the convex edge needs belt sander, Joe and Steve to the all locks should be treated like slipjoints, etc. .

-Cliff

 

[knifetester]

Then Jim does it with a $5 blade 1/8" thick.

He has also done the same with thinner knives, Mora knives @ 3/32".
Noted outdoorsman Cliff Jacobson designed the IKW Cliff knife @ 1/16" L6, specifically intended to baton wood to split kindling.

This is a knife designed for pure cutting, in the Deerhunter class.

I have used these thin knives (1/16'-3/32") with a baton, no problem.

Kindling size stuff, but the limitation was blade length, not durability.

Here is a portion of a review I read earlier this week about a Chudsinki MooseSkinner, 3/32 15n20, full flat grind. Reprinted with permission of the author:

b]Part 3[/b]
Outdoors Use
The Mooseskinner serves equally as well in the outdoors as it does in the kitchen. Given its design and intended purpose, that is no surprise.
While it is a bit wide for wood carving, it is a good general camp knife.

Splitting wood into kindling to use in my Kelly Kettle proved an easy task.

Whacking across the grain to cut to lengths short enough to fit in the fire pan was very easy as well.

The fully enclosed tang makes the Mooseskinner nice to use in cold weather. It also decreases vibration. Care must be taken when using a thin knife for batoning, but a good quality knife should not be damaged in the least.

A quick flick of the spine along a ferro rod sends some nice sparks into waiting cotton tinder, ready to bring a fire to life. One thing I do with my cotton balls, is take a cotton ball, rub vasaline into it, then stick that inside a dry cotton ball. The dry cotton ball ignites easily, and the soaked one keep it burning for a good while. Once the cotton ball ignites, I add a handful of wood shavings, which the keen edge of the Moosekinner easily produces.

Comparison The Grohamnn is easier to use for hard work, it is much thicker than the Mooseskinner, so less attention and care is neeed. You can chisel through knots with no problem, with the Mooseskinner I look for clear, straight grained wood. I can also use more force with the Grohamnn when pounding

END QUOTE

Baton work is not abusive. Consider that in many cases, the edge, the weakest part of the knife, is not being stressed at all/ The wood splits ahead of the edge once you get past spine depth, you can see this especially with fairly stout, narrow, hollow ground bales like the Livesay Air Assault.

Alvin made some comments awhile ago on rec.knives about how the internet was one of the best things to happen to the knife industry from the point of view of eliminating hype.

While Alvin's argument has some validity, the free exchange of information works both ways. While there is excellent information on the web (like Jeff Clark's informative posts), it is easily dwarfed in volume by the sheer number of garbage, hype, illogical, fantasy, tacticaluberkiller slop. Some venues are obviously better in this regards than others.

So while there is actually lots of useful stuff out there, you have to have sort through a whole lot of crappolla to get to it.

 

[knifetester]

In another review similair work is also done with an even smaller, more precision oriented Nessmuk style knife, again 3/32" 15n20:

Ref:http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/racquette/nessmukbydale.html
(Jim Aston's site)

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...So while there is actually lots of useful stuff out there, you have to have sort through a whole lot of crappolla to get to it.

It takes some time, but generally isn't hard to spot, and you can cut through a massive amount of hype with one simple question "Yeah, so can I do that?". Someome hyping performance will respond to that very differently than someone who is not.

That is nice work done on the Nessmuk, that maker sounds like he has a great perspective. What is the deal with the hump? On a larger blade I can see it as a balance issue, and for that size maybe as a baton target, but did Nessmuk do that anyway when he always had the hatchet?

I can see it having grip functions, but how did Nessmuk talk about that aspect of the design. Did he ever comment on the double edge design as some woodsmen are strongly opposed to them from a danger perspective.

-Cliff

 

[knifetester]

and you can cut through a massive amount of hype with one simple question "Yeah, so can I do that?". Someome hyping performance will respond to that very differently than someone who is not.

Usually it is not makers or manufacturers spreading the BS, usually it is some sycophant making meritless or exagerated claims. Usually this type of person buys into the cult like following of certain makers, never looking deeper than the "yeah, we are so great and tough" claims. Producers also contribute to this by promoting their knives as "used by high speed killers" instead of "able to cut 1" line with X amount of pressure, lock stregth of Y
, edge retention is Z in W material," Etc.

Other people just spread crapolla, either just to spread misinformation or they just don't know any better.

that maker sounds like he has a great perspective.

Chudzinski is excellent, just Google him to find lots of happy customers. However, his knives are not for everyone. He does not work in Stainless (his offered steels are 01, 15n20, L6, 1095 and 52100). he will not make thick prybar type knives, 1/8" is as thick as he goes. His knives are very traditional, working tools.

What is the deal with the hump?

Jim Aston:
"The hump toward the tip is for control while unzipping hide. You use the lump to provide leverage while unzipping the hide in a ripping movement. "
Ref: http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/rr.html

Discussion on the Hoodlums:
http://survival.com/IVB/index.php?showtopic=1526

Nessmuk Article by Schwert (axe and knife)
http://www.outdoors-magazine.com/s_article.php?id_article=179

Personally, I think it amkes the knife eaiser to use with a pinch grip, and makes the blade wider for better scooping, better target for a baton, and better as a scraper.

but did Nessmuk do that anyway when he always had the hatchet?

Nessmuk's primary use of the knife was as a big game skinner. See Schwert's article for more details.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Usually it is not makers or manufacturers spreading the BS, usually it is some sycophant making meritless or exagerated claims.

There is a lot of this, mainly it tends to be people trying to promote the maker/manufacturer and just goes a little overboard. Same deal though, just ask the maker if they will support the performance statements.

However, his knives are not for everyone.

No one really can, all I ask is that a maker be clear about what his knives are meant to do, and optimally talk a little about how they achive this steel and geoemtry wise. The customer can decide accordingly if that is right for them.

That wood in the above by the way looks really nice, hard to judge from a picture, but it looks tight grained and hard, fairly demanding to cut. It is telling that he ground the edge so thin ~0.025" given its use.

It isn't that impressive to have a knife be able to take batoning, even on harder woods, but to do so and still be comparable to an opinel in cutting ability certainly makes a strong statement on performance and versatility.

Thanks for the info on the hump, you see the same basic profile on really large butcher knives, I don't imagine it was an ergonomic aid there, have you seen any discussion in that regard.

-Cliff

 

[Sword and Shield]

I used humped knives like that in dissections, as it works well for popping joints without sacrificing the edge.

 

[knifetester]

That wood in the above by the way looks really nice, hard to judge from a picture, but it looks tight grained and hard, fairly demanding to cut.

Well seasoned Black Elm, very demanding to cut, and chosen just for that reason. hard to work with, but not fatal to the knife as trying to balst the balde through spruce ring knots would be.

It isn't that impressive to have a knife be able to take batoning, even on harder woods, but to do so and still be comparable to an opinel in cutting ability certainly makes a strong statement on performance and versatility.

The Opinel is much thinner ( under .010" thick) and probably has better light cutting ability and is slightly thinner, so cutting carots you would need les pressure. But you would have to be very sensitve to tell the difference in cutting ability on many materials. Sometimes it is not all about the edge, or even the blade. Sometimes the handle makes a huge difference, as it is not actual pressure that is being measured in these subjewctive reviews, but felt pressure. So a knife with a very comfortable handle might seem to cut better than its blade or edge profile would suggest. The harder the work, the more true this becomes. High pressure work (hogging off wood with straight arm, shoulder driven, real firm grip) the handle could make all the difference, swamp out a lot of the blade factor. . .

I think it is pretty cool that these knives are hand forged in charcoal, very little power tools used. From a user's standpoint I guess it does not matter if the knives were spit out of a goose and wiped with charmin to finish. But it gives the idea of talent the maker chooses to work with very primitive tools and make exceptional knives. Daniel Winkler is another that comes to mind with similiar means.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Using a knife to baton through wood has been taught as an accepted survival technique for decades. The knife used in the initial training I received in 1961 was a service "Ka-Bar." The instructor also showed how to fairly easily snap off the knife at the tang/blade junction. (No radiused corners on those GI babies.)

I cannot see how a fixed-blade knife can be advertised as made for "survival," "combat," "extreme use," etc. and not be up to batoning with correct technique.

 

[Gryffin]

Personally, I think it amkes the knife eaiser to use with a pinch grip, and makes the blade wider for better scooping, better target for a baton, and better as a scraper.

That hump also allows an edge with tons of belly, while keeping the tip from getting too thin and delicate. Same basic idea as Benchmade's "reverse tanto" grind on the 94x knives.

 

[knifetester]

Interesting point Gryffin, I had never thought about it that way.

Here is a link to an interesting thread regarding batoning, knife failures and the dreaded fulcrum. . .
http://www.knifeforums.com/ubbthrea...ber=568643&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1

How accurate are the physics arguments being presented?

 

[Krull]

Sounds like bad heat-treat to me;one reason I don't like western made carbon knives is this lone fact-try this:take a western made carbon steel knife and whack a rock or cement block [yea I know that's a no-no] the edge will CHIP! this is bad...carbon shouldn't chip;now take oh-say an Indian made Kukri or some other southeast asian made "big knife" i.e. a bolo or barong and do the same,that edge will BEND this is what you want trust me.

And yes I,ve got a ten+ year old kukri and have beat hell out of it...bent crap outta the edge more than once...just had to work harder to sharpen it is all

 

[knifetester]

Krull,
I disagree with your statement that Western carbon steel blades are more prone to chipping than eastern designs.

Yes, khukuri's are very tough, they use 5160 spring steel, it is a very tough steel. It is tough and not prone to chipping when used by Western bladesmiths or Eastern Kamis.

I would argue that Eastern (japanese) cutlery, very hard high carbon steels, are much more prone to chipping than any ABS class bowie.

Those tools are not intended for hard imacts however.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I disagree with your statement that Western carbon steel blades are more prone to chipping than eastern designs.

Most productions are, and just look at all the stainless tacticals, in general you won't find a lot of stainless traditional bolo's, parangs, goloks, machetes, khukuris, etc. , but it is common for North American makers to run them. As you noted though the ABS guys and other forgers tend to be more inline with traditional large chopping blades, but these are fairly expensive compared to the price of the traditional blades.

...but felt pressure.

Yeah, you can see this in balance and heft in hand. A knife with a thin grip or with sharp corners will feel heavier as the contact pressure is higher.

That hump also allows an edge with tons of belly, while keeping the tip from getting too thin and delicate.

I don't see this, if you run the spine straight out from the handle you would cut the hump right off and not effect the tip at all.

I cannot see how a fixed-blade knife can be advertised as made for "survival," "combat," "extreme use," etc. and not be up to batoning with correct technique.

Because users will tolerate it. There is change though, there is a huge difference now in what people expect on the forums compared to 10 years ago. As more work gets done there is less and less ability to hype performance and cry foul.

All it takes are makers willing to say this is not abusive and yes you can do it with my knife. Ralph for example on flicking, Busse on heavy edge impacts, Ritter on batoning with a folder, Glesser on various lock strength/stability issues, etc. .


-Cliff

 

[1katana]

FoxholeAtheist:

Hey Foxhole. I urge you to contact Cold Steel customer service. Ask for a gentleman named Miguel, he's the man! He is the best customer service rep I have ever spoken to no matter what company I have dealt with before. He has a lot of power; I'm pretty sure he's in charge of the whole department. I say this because he has replaced knives for me that I owned for over 10 years in one instance. The warranty for folders is 1 year and 5 years for fixed blades with sheaths. He has meetings with Lynn Thompson on a daily basis.

I have been dealing with CS since 1980 and I have purchased over 400 knives from them. If I ever have a problem they take care of me. The same thing happened to my LTC kukri while I was on a camping trip. I called CS and told them what happened and they told me to send the knife back for assessment. Come to find out it was a tempering flaw and they replaced it for free. Call them and I feel confident they will take care of you.

Remember to ask for Miguel only!!! Good luck!