CS Recon Tanto vs Birch log. Winner: Birch log

[Franciscomv]

First of all, I don't think battoning with a knife is abussive. When I hike or hunt I go to very secluded places for long periods of time and a hatchet is too heavy to carry around. I know they are useful, but when weight is an issue I'd rather have my knife than a hatchet. When I go on horseback I do carry one.

So my knives are used with a batton quite frequently, some times two or three times a day for at least ten days. I've yet to brake a knife doing this. I've battoned moras (even a tiny Frosts #277) through sizeable logs, even in cold weather and never had a problem other than scratches. If I one of my moras had broken (I only use the full tang wooden ones, mind you), I wouldn't have been too surprised, since it was a light knife and not something advertised as capable of standing to any kind of punishment.

CS does advertise their knives as very hard working tools, and their videos are filled with abussive testing, so a failure in one of those aledgedly indestructible knives is somehow worst than a handle crack in a cheap SWAK. I don't care if the customer service is great and you'll get a new knife, I wouldn't be able to trust the knife again. I just imagine if that knife would have broken in the middle of nowhere, three days away from the nearest human. Not a nice scenario. :thumbdn:

This is the second post I've seen about a broken CS knife (I think the other one was about a Recon Scout). I think I'll stick to other companies, some CS products seem to be good, but there are so many knives out there that I'm sure are good that I'm not willing to risk it with CS. Their advertising style didn't appeal to me from the get go, anyway.

I hope you get a new knife, though. It would be a shame if they didn't stand behind their product, specially after the hype.

 

[Gryffin]

I don't see this, if you run the spine straight out from the handle you would cut the hump right off and not effect the tip at all.

Oh? Considering how often you pry with the tip of knives you test, I'm surprise you don't get it. Let's take a look:

See the difference? The hump creates a more obtuse tip angle, putting more steel behind the tip. The tip angle on the top diagram is close to 90°; the one on the bottom is closer to 60°. Stab both into a piece of wood, and pry it out; which one is more likely to break off?

 

[Thomas Linton]

Another advantage of this shape, and the functionally close "semi-skinner," is that you get good "belly" and a drop point.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

How accurate are the physics arguments being presented?

I read through the first posts, not all 9+ pages, it quickly degederates, but anyway the basic arguement is that you can raise the stress on a knife if the handle goes under the center line. This isn't the main issue actually, it is the amount of force the operator exerts on the handle and the level of impact of the baton. The stress will actually be a maxium when the blade is perfectly vertical which is also the maximum point of efficiency for batoning for the same reasons.

Take a piece of cedar and a piece of twisted spruce and baton the knife through the cedar as sloppy as you want and now do it perfectly controlled through the spruce. Which one is actually harder on the knife? The spruce, because in order to actually split it you have to hit it about 100 times as hard as the cedar. You can actually just chop split cedar it falls apart so easily, as does clear pine, apps, and some clear birch.

Anyway as the handle dips above or below the center line it becomes difficult to baton as only a fraction of the hand load goes into providing the necessary countertorque thus much of the impact energy is wasted rotating the blade instead of driving it through the wood. To understand this imagine trying to baton without supplying any force on the handle, what happens - the knife just rotates and does little splitting.

Of couse with a proper carbon steel, and no sharp angles, you won't break the knife by beating on it with a piece of wood regardless of the angle of the handle or how horrible the wood. This is just an excuse for a knife with a major design flaw (sharp corners) and likely heat treat. Contact Swamp Rat knife works or Busse Combat and ask them when using their knives for batoning will they be expected to break if the handle is not kept horizontal.

The hump creates a more obtuse tip angle ...

No it doesn't :

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/CliffStamp/misc/nessmuk_tip.gif

The top knife has the hump cut off and the tip profile is not effected, nor is the belly of the blade.

-Cliff

 

[Gryffin]

No it doesn't :

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/CliffStamp/misc/nessmuk_tip.gif

The top knife has the hump cut off and the tip profile is not effected, nor is the belly of the blade.

Geez, Cliff, way to split hairs. You just changed it to a smaller hump, albeit one with a peak in it, now. Just a really blunt clip point.

When you said...

I don't see this, if you run the spine straight out from the handle you would cut the hump right off and not effect the tip at all.

...it sure sounded like you meant a straight spine out to the tip, with no hump. Since, after all, that hump was the topic.

Whatever.

 

[t1mpani]

I think what was meant was that the extreme hump is not absolutely necessary to achieve the described effect in tip strength. A typical drop point is the same idea. However, doing it the humped way allows you to have a narrower/lighter knife in the back than a uniform-width drop point, which can be a plus or a minus, depending on your preferences.

However, the wide hump IS useful if you like really getting up on the blade for fine control in skinning or other tasks, as it gives your hand a little more room to grab and manipulate, and the curve is more ergonomic than a flat back. My grandfather used an old knife of this pattern for skinning, and that's exactly how he used it. I was always too afraid that my blood/fat covered hand would lose on the slippery blade to do this, but I have to admit that he could pull a hide off an animal a lot faster and cleaner than I can. Then again, it might also have had to do with how much experience he had in this, which certainly dwarfed mine.

 

[Gryffin]

I think what was meant was that the extreme hump is not absolutely necessary to achieve the described effect in tip strength. A typical drop point is the same idea.

Oh, I agree, it's sort of a drop point taken to extremes. But you gotta admit, there aren't many drop points that leave that much steel at the tip. It's a unique design, and the more I look at it, the more practical it appears!

Remember, Nessmuk also liked to carry a large moose-pattern slipjoint, which provided a nice sharp pointed tip if needed, and a hatchet for heavy wood work. I haven't read his book yet, but I'm guessing the fixed blade knife was more for skinning and food prep than wood splitting or caping.

However, doing it the humped way allows you to have a narrower/lighter knife in the back than a uniform-width drop point

Yeah, I noticed that too. Out where you're batoning, the knife is deep; the rest is slim, and the point is sturdy. Very efficient.

However, the wide hump IS useful if you like really getting up on the blade for fine control in skinning or other tasks, as it gives your hand a little more room to grab and manipulate, and the curve is more ergonomic than a flat back.

Intersting... I always figured Nessmuk put his index finger on the spine behind the hump, for added control; the hump puts the fingertip more in line with the point than above it.

My grandfather used an old knife of this pattern for skinning, and that's exactly how he used it. I was always too afraid that my blood/fat covered hand would lose on the slippery blade to do this, but I have to admit that he could pull a hide off an animal a lot faster and cleaner than I can.

Huh... I've never skinned an animal, but I can see your point. I notice some newer knives, Spyderco particularly, encourage "choking up" by providing a finger choil ahead of the guard. This is just a logical extension of that: get your fingers, and hence control, as close to the cutting as possible. Smart guy, your grandpappy!

I guess, then, the "ultimate Nessmuk" would have some sort of finger recess up on that hump, to improve gripping... hmmm... hafta give that some thought...

 

[Cliff Stamp]

You just changed it to a smaller hump

There is no hump in the knife in the above picture, it is a standard drop point.

-Cliff

 

[Gryffin]

There is no hump in the knife in the above picture, it is a standard drop point.

Actually, a clip point.

But even that is a matter of perspective:

Look at it that way, it's a hump. And still useful. And still has a stronger tip.

Let's just agree that that you misunderstood my point, and that I misunderstood your point, and call it a draw, OK? I've got better things to do this evening than to try to baton a clue through that knotty skull of yours.

 

[t1mpani]

Smart guy, your grandpappy!

Yep, he played a mean harmonica, too!

I guess, then, the "ultimate Nessmuk" would have some sort of finger recess up on that hump, to improve gripping... hmmm... hafta give that some thought...

Go to the natural conclusion and you have an ulu.

 

[knifetester]

I read through the first posts, not all 9+ pages, it quickly degederates, but anyway the basic arguement is that you can raise the stress on a knife if the handle goes under the center line.

There are some force vector diagrams and Mike Stewart talks about tests he did breaking knives with batons late on. . .
Of couse with a proper carbon steel, and no sharp angles, you won't break the knife by beating on it with a piece of wood regardless of the angle of the handle or how horrible the wood. This is just an excuse for a knife with a major design flaw (sharp corners) and likely heat treat.

I agree with you, however Stewa, Sgt. Mike and Sharpshooter make claims otherwise and add some "tests" they have done to the mix.

Thanks for the details, sounded rather fishy to me. I don't know squat about physics, but I have batoned wood with much less "durable" knives as noted above.
Take a Range RD9 and you can baton it through Ironwood using a framing hammer with the tip pointed to the sky, it simply ain't gonna break like that.

Again, thanks fot the insight. If you ahve the time to check out the lte posts where they make arguments and draw diagrams and stuff, I would be interested i hearing how correct there science is. My intuition tells me it is suspect.

 

[Gryffin]

Go to the natural conclusion and you have an ulu.

Smart guys, them Inuit!!

Hey, form follows function. Every primitive culture the world around had to skin animals, it stands to reason that many of them would reach the same conclusion as to the most effective way to do so. So much for us "moderns" and our high-tech ways, huh?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...draw diagrams and stuff...

Take a piece of 2x2 pine, score it half way through (this represents the weakened tang/blade juncture) and now position it three ways across the edge of a 2x4 :

A) flat across

B) the handle at a 45 degree angle down

C) handle 45 degrees up

Now take your off hand and lean into the "handle" of your 2x2 and then bring your baton down sharply on the "blade". At which position will it be easier to crack off your "knife"?

In A, you can get your entire bodyweight into the counter torque and thus force maxium impact strain onto the 2x2. In the other two positions a lot of the impact energy is actually wasted as the baton will slide along the 2x2 and your ability to produce a counter torque is limited.

When the knife is angled only a fraction of the force goes into the counter torque and this is what allows strain to be directed into the tang. Consider what would happen if you didn't press down on the handle, the tang would not be stressed at all. The harder you can oppose the turning, the harder it is on the 2x2.

If this doesn't convince you, increase the angle to 60 then 75 degrees both ways, note at 90 degrees there is NO stress on the tang at all, you are just spiking the blade right into the ground.

-Cliff

 

[m1marty]

I've got better things to do this evening than to try to baton a clue through that knotty skull of yours.

LMAO! Got me in tears here. Honestly, your bevels are probably off, so fat chance.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Actually, a clip point.

A clip is straight or concave, the above is convex so it is a drop, considering the blade width and the point relationship, some would call it a spear.

-Cliff

 

[Gryffin]

A clip is straight or concave, the above is convex so it is a drop, considering the blade width and the point relationship, some would call it a spear.

There's very little curve there, and I've never seen a drop point with a break like that, but if you want to call it a drop point, be my guest. Or call it a spear point, if you like. Heck, call it a tanto. Or call it Mary and take it out to dinner, for all I care. More power to ya.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Concerning claims that it is abusive and breaks are due to improper use instead of design or steel :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361351

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361349

public statements by two makers/manufacturers to the contrary.

-Cliff

 

[Way-O]

People have different thoughts on what qualifies as abuse. But if a knife with proportions like the Recon Tanto or Scout can't handle batoning to wood it's just not good enough. And I don't care if you have it at an angle or if the wood is natural 50 layer plywood grown on kryptonite either.

The "analysis" on the other forum concerning the Recon Scout incident is just bull from the start in my royal opinion.

It still amazes me how many Self-Appointed Blade Testers don't know how to baton properly. They damage a perfectly good knife and blame the knife for their foul-up.

Here is the perfect example of a perfectly good knife that has been broken by Operator error.

The guy who did it still--to this day---dosen't understand what he did and blames the maker. He is dead wrong. It was his faulty technique that broke this knife.
--
The handle of a knife that is being batoned into wood of this thickness MUST be paralell or higher than the spine of the knife.

The picture clearly shows that the knife was in the wood at an angle that caused the handle to be below the line of the spine.

It will break most knives, to baton with gusto while holding the knife firmly in the wood-- at the angle shown in the break photo

The picture shows squat. Judging from the picture, it could have been batoned in with direct blows to the center of the blade just as well, only controlling the side to side tilt with the handle, not inducing other than vibration to the tang junction. I'm not saying this is the case (Nutnfancy implied it wasn't), just that there's no valid point to begin with. The devil that is the tilted angle is small anyway, and distorted due to the pics angle.

The cold should have not been an issue either. I have found some woods much easier to split when when it's frozen. CS has definitely lost some of my money, I was thinking of getting a knife from their Tactical Field Knives line, which the RT and the RS are both part of.

The Recon Tanto is redefining the standard for combat knives. It is fast becoming the preferred fixed blade for SWAT teams and special military units

All hear this! a part of the definition of a combat knife now is: it cannot be used to split wood. Well I guess most swat teams are not making campfires so at least they're all right.

At least we learned that. ...and that Cliff doesn't like his knives humped.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have found some woods much easier to split when when it's frozen.

Rounds are often trivial to crack when frozen, after a frost you can often just chop split rounds which you would have to reverse poll strike several times before.

Knives should also be able to handle the cold without getting too brittle, otherwise it would be useful if the maker/manufacturer put an operating temp limit on them.

-Cliff

 

[FoxholeAtheist]

FWIW, my Recon Tanto was more "tip down" when it broke.