Cts-xhp

[Gator97]

I could find no example of him calling people's work or findings anything negative.

We both posted in the same thread(hardness vs. wear resistance), where Vasili accused Ankerson of putting up a show instead of knife testing, and also accused him of helping knife industry - "overstock of overpriced underperformed steels".
My and your posts are 3rd and 4th after his. I assume you read it, you just have a different perspective, fine.

In this very thread, right after your post #27, he attacked Spyderco, for posting Carpenter's description of CTS-XHP, and went on with his usual conspiracy theories. Again, may be for you it's alright, others think he's rather off with that.

I dislike cliquey or group attitudes that predispose others to think someone or something is bad or good for that matter (it doesn't matter). This slowly, overtime, destroys ideas, credibility and free expression of ideas.

I agree with you on all accounts here. Except, that doesn't mean number of people will not form the same opinion of someone or something. For most of the opponents or critics Vasili's answer is: shut up, because you have not done as much cutting as I have, even if they're pointing out something as obvious as different knives, edge angles, different initial performance.
For the makers who have done a lot more cutting with better setups(i.e. same blade geometry, different steels), he's response is that they have agenda to push underperforming steels...

In other words, his testing results are one thing, but the rest is how he treats opponents, and unlike you many people do have problem with that.

 

[Les George]

I have used quite a bit of CTS-XHP. My own EDC is made from it.

I like everything about it, except it's availability. Once Carpenter gets that ironed out, it will be my go to folder steel!

 

[cziv]

We both posted in the same thread(hardness vs. wear resistance), where Vasili accused Ankerson of putting up a show instead of knife testing, and also accused him of helping knife industry - "overstock of overpriced underperformed steels".
My and your posts are 3rd and 4th after his. I assume you read it, you just have a different perspective, fine.

In this very thread, right after your post #27, he attacked Spyderco, for posting Carpenter's description of CTS-XHP, and went on with his usual conspiracy theories. Again, may be for you it's alright, others think he's rather off with that.


I agree with you on all accounts here. Except, that doesn't mean number of people will not form the same opinion of someone or something. For most of the opponents or critics Vasili's answer is: shut up, because you have not done as much cutting as I have, even if they're pointing out something as obvious as different knives, edge angles, different initial performance.
For the makers who have done a lot more cutting with better setups(i.e. same blade geometry, different steels), he's response is that they have agenda to push underperforming steels...

In other words, his testing results are one thing, but the rest is how he treats opponents, and unlike you many people do have problem with that.

Briefly & finally;

They were arguing over current & past testing methods/results with both men passionately believing their way was best. Better yet, one believing the other's method was flawed. I attach no blame there, as the other member had made disparaging remarks as well.

Well, I've read Carpenter's steel info many times myself and in fact Spyderco did blow off making any remarks regarding "their findings" and did in fact quote Carpenter's description of CTS-XHP instead which apparently upset Vassili.

I won't remark on any conspiracy theories or pushing the use of lousy steel on the market by companies, except to say that large Corporations are in the business of separating us from our money. It's not outside the realm of my thinking that if corporate America could sell us all tickets on the Titanic, or for parachutes that didn't open, they'd be freshly printed and for sale at all ticket outlets.

They definitely have an agenda to push anything on us that will get us to hand them cash or our credit cards. Corporations are not your friends or buddies they are busisnesses who's aim is to make a profit. One current example and I'm out of this discussion except to lurk.

Bottom line is I'm rocking CTS-XHP every day and it's a great steel so far. I've done some cutting with it already (boxes & some pine) but nothing like wha I have in store for it this spring......mwahhaha....

 

[Ankerson]

Briefly & finally;

They were arguing over current & past testing methods/results with both men passionately believing their way was best. Better yet, one believing the other's method was flawed.

Never said mine was best.

All I said was I wasn't going to change the way I do it because it works for me and what I am testing for.

 

[Gator97]

both men passionately believing their way was best.

Are you reading selective phrases or just interpreting "differently"? Vasili explicitly accused Ankerson of putting up a show and deliberately misleading readers to promote underperforming steels. I dunno how is it your world, but for most of the readers that is very different from "passionately defending his own methods". That besides the point that Ankerson didn't claim his was the best, and Vasili says if you don't consider his directives, then you're at least clueless, if not worse.
In simpler words, it is Vasilii who insists that others, makers and forumites alike follow his testing methods, or else you are incompetent or a fraud. If you don't have problem with any of that, that's fine with me, just don't blame the outcome on group attitude and predisposition portraying Vasilii as a victim.

BTW, that reply from Mr. Glesser, was not official Spyderco company reply, it was just another quick post from the forum member. Nothing conspicuous, I woudn't expect few pages log research report there.

...that large Corporations are in the business of separating us from our money.

Yeah, that's the thing about any business, small or big. Otherwise it's called charity And yes there are unethical and fraudulent businesses too, but accusing everyone left and right, w/o any proof, or using very questionable test results, is not a way to make friends.

Corporations are not your friends or buddies they are busisnesses who's aim is to make a profit.

Dude, it was Spyderco... A long way from being BP. You said yourself - "I dislike cliquey or group attitudes that predispose" and now lumping everyone in the same bucket is any better on your part?

 

[Noctis3880]

Wow. The Vassili debate again....
I found CTS-XHP to be a great steel. It is my favorite stainless steel right now. Definitely holds a wicked edge for a while and a working edge for even longer. Rather easy to sharpen also. I cannot tell the difference between ELMAX and CTS-XHP in performance. I'd say they are about the same, but XHP is easier to sharpen. It is also tougher than ZDP-189, which makes it more suitable for my type of uses (hard use/heavy cutting).
The only steel that works better for me, than the CTS-XHP, is the CPM-M4, which seems to be tougher, hold an edge longers, and sharpen rather with the same ease. The only advantage the XHP steel has over the M4, is corrosion resistance.

Also, I think that hating on Vassili and his test results has became far too popular on these forums. He works hard, to bring us informative data in regards to all kinds of knife steels. His tests show different results than some of the other, popular testers, and that is why he's being disregarded. That is total BS. He seems only "aggressive" because he saw with his own eyes the difference in performance of these steels, and to him, what some people claim seems absurd. I think that his tests are real, and the results are true. His methods are different, yet rather precise and "scientific". It is good to have that data-base so we can compare it with other data and then with our own use of these steels. For the media he is cutting and testing with, CTS-XHP did extremely well, and even better than some other, better regarded steels. I am a total believer. It is indeed a great steel, and depends on the media you're cutting, it may perform better than some of the "higher end" steels. Stop claiming he tries to mislead people, he is just a believer in what he SEES. Nothing wrong with that. So, lay off him, nobody wants a monkey on his back, and it seems that Vassili finds himself in the middle of the jungle, whenever he posts anything around here.

I think it's mostly his attitude with other people that paints a target on the back of his head. He criticizes everyone who doesn't agree with him. He criticizes Spyderco for not pushing out a flawed stock of CTS-XHP because it's his personal favorite steel and for using other steels on the market(which is stupid because variety is the spice of life). He demands that everyone who does any rope cutting tests change their methods to coincide with his.

I find his results "curious" to say the least. Saying that CTS-XHP, a steel not flaunted for high wear resistance(at least by Carpenter), outperforms S90V, a steel designed specifically for high wear resistance, in a wear resistance test(cutting manila rope) is sort of like saying that fine silk works better than Kevlar at stopping bullets.

 

[nozh2002]

It is pretty simple...

I did some testing cutting manila rope as common edge testing media and measuring sharpness in the process using statistical thread cutting - it is all well documented and posted (I have some sharpness demonstration whittling hair, but this is not part of my testing, I have no idea what is Sal talking about), I did not hide my findings:

http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Manila-Rope-Results.html

Here it was discussed over last five years - I am doing it for quite a long time:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346429
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509097
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589139

What I found on this practical tests does not match carefully created here and there super steel stories. My tests simple expose average or even poor performance of quite a few super duper steels highly promoted and priced.

Who may like that? Not knife makers, not proud owners, not loyal customers. Only consumers who avoid of buying knives out of over hyped steels and choose real performers. But they are not going to post too much. However, unhappy, loyal customers and proud owners are pretty active, but I guess this is just human nature.

I wish knife industry start using good steel to produce knives, steel which really performs and my test results will just support their claims of excellency and quality. I hope at that point I will not have those angry comments from proud owners and loyal customers.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. Biggest problem this situation exposed is that it looks like knife manufacturers has no clue about steel performance (or may be do not care at all) and relay completely on marketing drons - promotions, public relations etc., but do not test steel!

How come me doing this house-tests revealing secrets of real steel performance? Why steels with clearly poor performance slip to the market?

 

[Noctis3880]

It is pretty simple...

I did some testing cutting manila rope as common edge testing media and measuring sharpness in the process using statistical thread cutting - it is all well documented and posted (I have some sharpness demonstration whittling hair, but this is not part of my testing, I have no idea what is Sal talking about), I did not hide my findings:

Funny, I remember you said that your edge is sharpened to hair whittling sharpness prior to testing. I wonder how you can tell it's at hair whittling sharpness without actually whittling hair with it first?

Also, I remember you mentioning that you sharpen freehand, which begs the question of how you think your results are consistent if the edge angles aren't absolutely the same with each knife.

What I found on this practical tests does not match carefully created here and there super steel stories. My tests simple expose average or even poor performance of quite a few super duper steels highly promoted and priced.

It's funny how you think hundreds of people who have probably never met each other all conspired to make up stories promoting certain steels.

Who may like that? Not knife makers, not proud owners, not loyal customers. Only consumers who avoid of buying knives out of over hyped steels and choose real performers. But they are not going to post too much. However, unhappy, loyal customers and proud owners are pretty active, but I guess this is just human nature.

No, it's because you're the only one in that category.

I wish knife industry start using good steel to produce knives, steel which really performs and my test results will just support their claims of excellency and quality. I hope at that point I will not have those angry comments from proud owners and loyal customers.

Thanks, Vassili.

"Good" is a relative term. 440C was "good" when it first came out. S30V was "good" despite your claims of D2 being some sort of mythological adamantium(of which to heat treat it to its maximum potential is just as complicated as heat treating S30V, and it still won't be as corrosion resistant or as tough as S30V). Steels get outdated almost as fast as computers these days. What's "good" today will be yesterdays news.

P.S. Biggest problem this situation exposed is that it looks like knife manufacturers has no clue about steel performance (or may be do not care at all) and relay completely on marketing drons - promotions, public relations etc., but do not test steel!

So I suppose CATRA testing doesn't count in your little self-contained world?

How come me doing this house-tests revealing secrets of real steel performance? Why steels with clearly poor performance slip to the market?

Because you are quite possibly the only person on this planet who thinks otherwise? And the millions of people which form the consumer base of the knife market disagrees with you?

 

[Gator97]

What I found on this practical tests does not match carefully created here and there super steel stories.

Let's be precise, that's what you found in YOUR tests. Numerous problems were pointed out, which you ignore, that's your choice, but by the same token, your results are getting ignored, along with your doom and gloom predictions, which seems to be the reason for your frustrations.

My tests simple expose average or even poor performance of quite a few super duper steels highly promoted and priced.

Or alternatively, your tests are invalid, erroneous, poorly designed or executed.

I wish knife industry start using good steel to produce knives, steel which really performs and my test results will just support their claims of excellency and quality.

Terrific So, knife industry must align to your test results. Ideally, we'd also need "Approved by Vassilii" stamp on every "quality" blade. All that, based on rope cutting with differently sharpened knives with different blade geometries, different hardness, which you never really test, and you can't replicate your own results either.
One thing for sure, you won't have problems because of being too humble.

I hope at that point I will not have those angry comments from proud owners and loyal customers.

Certainly The day will come, and everyone will use CTS-XHP for everything, including sporks.

P.S. Biggest problem this situation exposed is that it looks like knife manufacturers has no clue about steel performance (or may be do not care at all) and relay completely on marketing drons - promotions, public relations etc., but do not test steel!

Right! They have no clue, but you certainly have bunch of them clues. CATRA machines mean squat, R&D departments where folks with metallurgy degrees get paid to do research also mean nothing, you singlehandedly beat(or expose) them all, on weekends And bunch of other knife nuts as well.

How come me doing this house-tests revealing secrets of real steel performance?

Uhmm, may be because it's mostly in your head? I love the pathos though - "revealing secrets of real steel performance"

Why steels with clearly poor performance slip to the market?

I suspect because you're not doing your job well enough You should push harder, to expose conspiracy, so that CTS-XHP, or whatever else becomes your favorite at that time, reins supreme.

 

[wongKI]

Oh no, not again ><

 

[Buffalohump]

I'm sure that CTS-XHP is a very good steel. Les George says it is, so it must be so.

By the same token, Elmax and M390 are also getting very good reports.

I dont see the point of arguing which is best, that seems silly to me. The real problem is finding knives which make use of these steels and AREN'T limited editions or very pricey customs.

I think this is the real nut of the problem.

 

[Planterz]

nozh is a Spydertroll, in that he has a personal vendetta with Spyderco and it's owner, Sal Glesser.

Firstly, he expects Spyderco to make public the results of all their testing (CATRA or otherwise) despite the fact that it's trade information that they've acquired on their own after untold thousands (millions?) of dollars of R&D.And since Spyderco doesn't, nozh says that Spyderco is lying and/or making everything up.

This is pretty simplistic description of this steel. I am wondering why Spyderco which claim to have their own R&D and being expert in steels just replicating this wording taken out of context from promotional materials on Carpennter's web site. It looks like Spyderco has no their own info on this steel and reffering to Carpenter and forumites.

-from this thread-

No! This is biggest secret of knife industry and even if they give that to some chosen people, they must not disclose this!

Spyderco, Buck and Case have CATRA machines, but never publish results.

Consumers only see some foggy statements and promotional materials.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8606035

If some company does not disclose how they do test (if they do) - this simple mean that this is matter of trust or believe. Some may believe that there is no need to prove that edge holding quality is tested during Research and Development and more important as a Quality Assurance.

I am not too easy to believe - I have number of cases when expensive and highly rated knives or steels does not match expectations and even was below average level. Also I can not understand any reason for any producer to hide the fact that they do test their knives and as well how they do test. To me this is additional advertisement value for obvious reason.

However if there is not any testing - then this is what need not to be advertised...

So for me it is important to know for sure does company test what they do produce for what I am looking in knives or not. I will prefer producer which build it's production process - heat treatment in particular based on best edge retention results during R&D and I will profer producer which test edge retention quality during production to make sure everything is going as expected.

---

Can you post this catra test results? We may try to figure out what it is about.

I wish to have it in every box with quality knife...

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7434288

P.S. And Sal does not publish CATRA results so we have to do this by hands...

---

Sure he can! Different sources publish results time to time here and there. Just recently some were published disclosing average results for CPM S30V vs super performing CPM S60V. Why Sal can not? Same as I can publish my results and same as you can publish yours.

I am not buying it!

---

Bottom line is - you are not sharing your test results with us.

---

Those are not official results, Spyderco did not confirm it. Spyderco share those tests asking to keep them secret. Until they change policy, it will not be confirmed and continue to be urban legend.

On my testing - ZDP189 is clearly ahead of CPM S90V on production knives (not on some lab samples nobody uses in production).

Phil as well as Spyderco keep his testing secret as well. I do not really see value in this at all. He do not want to discuss his methodology which have quite afew questions not answered

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=774510

Be sure to read Sal's responses in this thread so you can see nozh's unwillingness to accept them.

Secondly, nozh takes every opportunity he can to shit on Spyderco whether it's founded or not.

Spyderco promising to do more knives out of this steel, but continue to fail to deliver this promises,

Sal already explained that Carpenter's batch of xhp steel was flawed so they couldn't use it, yet nozh blames Spyderco. This delusion probably stems from when he didn't get his ZDP mule exactly when he wanted it.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649635

and with resent decline in it's quality standards it is really hard to expect soon.

nozh is the only person who thinks Spyderco's quality standards are declining.

There's a word for behavior like nozh's postings about Spyderco, and that word is trolling. The evidence isn't just in posts like those above, it's the fact that so many threads, such as this one and the M390 VS ZDP-189 one start out as something worthy of discussion but then nozh has to start his broken-record bitching about Spyderco, and suddenly the thread isn't following the original discussion, it's him making untrue and unfounded accusations and others telling him to STFU. And then starts the arguments about the validity of testing methods that have nothing to do with the original topic of the thread.

His "only I can be right and everybody else is wrong no matter what" attitude is another matter. It doesn't matter to him that other people might be right, or that he might be wrong, or that he and other people might both be right. Nor does it seem to matter to him that other people he's arguing with are often industry leaders or people with decades of experience in knife making and metallurgy. He's right, and they're wrong. Only his methods are valid, no matter how many flaws others point out in them.

This attitude isn't quite trolling, but it certainly isn't making him any friends. And if you get him really angry, no matter how right you are or how wrong he is, he'll put you on Ignore. (fingers crossed)

 

[singularity35]

I think this is the real nut of the problem.

Maybe this is the real problem of the (knife) nut.

 

[Handwrecker]

The real reason for the Spydie-hate?

 

[Planterz]

Nikita Khrushchev banging a shoe?

 

[misterjuiceman]

I've only had one CTS-XHP blade. There ended up being a hairline crack right above the thumbstud, so I had to send it back, and it was replaced with 20CV I think it was just a bad heat treat though, I've heard really great things about it, and I was pretty disappointed to lose it.

 

[DennisStrickland]

a few opinions of my own. rockwell hardness is not the final word in edge endurance. 3v at 58 will outcut s30 at 6o & m390 at 61 will defeat zdp at 64. abrasion of edges is related to types of carbides & the ability of the matrix securing the carbides to hold these same w/o losing the carbides.whether or not we like vassilli we must remember that all tests have some value. vassilli's use of arrogant abrasive adjectives certainly alienates him from many formites. there are many ways to deliver an opinion & it seems vassilli chooses the most aggravating . regardless of the cost of an alloy--heattreats that are super involved can make a steel costing 10$ a lb. more expensive to make a product than alloys with a simpler heattreat with steels costing 20$ a lb.--dennis

 

[Folderguy]

It is pretty simple...

I did some testing cutting manila rope as common edge testing media and measuring sharpness in the process using statistical thread cutting - it is all well documented and posted (I have some sharpness demonstration whittling hair, but this is not part of my testing, I have no idea what is Sal talking about), I did not hide my findings:

http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Manila-Rope-Results.html

Here it was discussed over last five years - I am doing it for quite a long time:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346429
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509097
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589139

What I found on this practical tests does not match carefully created here and there super steel stories. My tests simple expose average or even poor performance of quite a few super duper steels highly promoted and priced.

Who may like that? Not knife makers, not proud owners, not loyal customers. Only consumers who avoid of buying knives out of over hyped steels and choose real performers. But they are not going to post too much. However, unhappy, loyal customers and proud owners are pretty active, but I guess this is just human nature.

I wish knife industry start using good steel to produce knives, steel which really performs and my test results will just support their claims of excellency and quality. I hope at that point I will not have those angry comments from proud owners and loyal customers.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. Biggest problem this situation exposed is that it looks like knife manufacturers has no clue about steel performance (or may be do not care at all) and relay completely on marketing drons - promotions, public relations etc., but do not test steel!

How come me doing this house-tests revealing secrets of real steel performance? Why steels with clearly poor performance slip to the market?

While I have knives with M390, another with M2, several with S30V and 154CM, I also have more than a few with AUS8, or 440a or 440b or 440c, and several with 8Cr13MoV. Some of the knives are pricey. A Strider SnG is probably the most expensive of the lot, with S30V. A Zero Tolerance 0300 with S30V. A Zero Tolerance 0400 with S30V. A Benchmade 755 MPR with M390. A Cold Steel Magnum Tanto with VG-1 San Mai. Etc., etc., etc. However, some of my favorite knock around knives have the 8Cr13MoV blade. Most of those knives come in under $40, some of them get to me for $15 shipped.

Why do I buy the lower end knives "with clearly poor performance" that "slip to the market"? Because I like them. Great bang for the buck.

 

[Ankerson]

a few opinions of my own. rockwell hardness is not the final word in edge endurance. 3v at 58 will outcut s30 at 6o & m390 at 61 will defeat zdp at 64. abrasion of edges is related to types of carbides & the ability of the matrix securing the carbides to hold these same w/o losing the carbides.whether or not we like vassilli we must remember that all tests have some value. vassilli's use of arrogant abrasive adjectives certainly alienates him from many formites. there are many ways to deliver an opinion & it seems vassilli chooses the most aggravating . regardless of the cost of an alloy--heattreats that are super involved can make a steel costing 10$ a lb. more expensive to make a product than alloys with a simpler heattreat with steels costing 20$ a lb.--dennis

Yes, even the same steel at the same HRC can perform differently depending on the HT and tempering process.

Even a steel from different batches can perform differently at the same hardness with the same HT and tempering process.

Then start factoring in all the other variables that can make a difference such as blade grinds, edge geometries, the testing media, edge finish ect and it can really get clouded in a real hurry.

In the end all we can get are general ideas of how a steel should perform based on the alloy content and HRC.

There aren't any set in stone answers so we have to look at the numbers and averages.

The knife manufacturers and in the end we are at the mercy of the steel manufacturers.

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

Yes, even the same steel at the same HRC can perform differently depending on the HT and tempering process.

Even a steel from different batches can perform differently at the same hardness with the same HT and tempering process.

There can be additional variables combined Jim's variables listed above.

We have a big bar of W2. It measures 3" x 3.5" x 36". I cut slices off both ends and sent them in for testing. There were minor differences from one end of the bar to the other.

Powder metallurgy allows the manufacturers to make a large batch of powder then mix the powder while filling the crucibles prior to solidifying. This will minimize variations in the chemistry of the steel.