Cts-xhp

[5.56]

All other steels are far behind and whoever can recognise that already switch to CTS-XHP -

Incorrect

Instead we are pushed to believe that EU made steel - Elmax and M360, which show poor performance are superior to everything made in US.

Incorrect

My tests simple expose average or even poor performance of quite a few super duper steels highly promoted and priced.

Misinformed

Biggest problem this situation exposed is that it looks like knife manufacturers has no clue about steel performance (or may be do not care at all) and relay completely on marketing drons - promotions, public relations etc., but do not test steel!

Incorrect

How come me doing this house-tests revealing secrets of real steel performance?

Misinformed

I have no idea what is Sal talking about

That's obvious

nozh is a Spydertroll, in that he has a personal vendetta with Spyderco and it's owner, Sal Glesser.
Firstly, he expects Spyderco to make public the results of all their testing (CATRA or otherwise) despite the fact that it's trade information that they've acquired on their own after untold thousands (millions?) of dollars of R&D.And since Spyderco doesn't, nozh says that Spyderco is lying and/or making everything up.
Be sure to read Sal's responses in this thread so you can see nozh's unwillingness to accept them.
Secondly, nozh takes every opportunity he can to shit on Spyderco whether it's founded or not.
Sal already explained that Carpenter's batch of xhp steel was flawed so they couldn't use it, yet nozh blames Spyderco. This delusion probably stems from when he didn't get his ZDP mule exactly when he wanted it.
nozh is the only person who thinks Spyderco's quality standards are declining.
There's a word for behavior like nozh's postings about Spyderco, and that word is trolling. The evidence isn't just in posts like those above, it's the fact that so many threads, such as this one and the M390 VS ZDP-189 one start out as something worthy of discussion but then nozh has to start his broken-record bitching about Spyderco, and suddenly the thread isn't following the original discussion, it's him making untrue and unfounded accusations and others telling him to STFU. And then starts the arguments about the validity of testing methods that have nothing to do with the original topic of the thread.
His "only I can be right and everybody else is wrong no matter what" attitude is another matter. It doesn't matter to him that other people might be right, or that he might be wrong, or that he and other people might both be right. Nor does it seem to matter to him that other people he's arguing with are often industry leaders or people with decades of experience in knife making and metallurgy. He's right, and they're wrong. Only his methods are valid, no matter how many flaws others point out in them.
This attitude isn't quite trolling, but it certainly isn't making him any friends. And if you get him really angry, no matter how right you are or how wrong he is, he'll put you on Ignore. (fingers crossed)

+1

Thanks Planters, you saved me from typing all of that.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Gentlemen, at this point the whole thread belongs in Whine & Cheese.

Where did all the steel talk go? Most of it has been pushed aside by a few trolling entries. In short, do not discuss each other, do not discuss personalities or personal histories, Do Not Feed the Troll.

nozh2002, enough already. Last warning.

 

[Noctis3880]

Well allow me to be the first to shove this train back on its tracks:thumbup:.

CTS-XHP is an excellent steel, and lots of people will love it. That is because it is a bit like watered down ZDP-189 in the sense that it's chock full of Chromium carbides. It will act like S30V in that it keeps a working edge forever, but isn't prone to chipping like ZDP, and probably has more corrosion resistance as well.

It however, is not for me. The working edge you get is extremely "aggressive" so to speak. Think of it like comparing a large wood saw(chromium carbides) to a small file(vanadium carbides). I much prefer a steel with finer "teeth" to it. And so S90V is more appealing to me than ZDP-189, CTS-XHP, or D2 because of that. Though I also find that I like steels with a good mix between the two like S30V, Elmax, and M390. CTS-XHP has 0.45% vanadium, but that simply isn't enough for me.

However, anyone who likes D2 have apparently already jumped all over the pre-orders for the Spyderco CTS-XHP Brown Military, because I can't find anyplace that has still it.

While I would like to claim that vanadium carbides are superior because of their smaller size and higher hardness, I do see the practical benefits of a high chromium carbide steel as it is easier and faster to sharpen.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Interesting thread.

We worked with Carpenter's metallurgists to develop and test numerous steels for them. Many experimental steels as well Carpenter's versions of current exotic steel blends. In some cases, Carpenter's metallurgists "tweaked" the chemistry. The results were mostly positive.

While we made their test mules and shared data with them, we asked them not to make our data public as we were not an "accredited testing agency" and we really didn't want to get into the "fight". They ended up asking us to make new test mules which they sent to CATRA for testing data they could share.

CTS-XHP tested well in our CATRA tests (competitive with other modern high performing blade steels) and was better than "normal" D2 in corrosion resistance. Part of this was the powered process, part was the extra chrome and part was, in my opinion, their "tweaks".

To say that Spyderco is not invoved with steels and does not test is simply ignorant. To say that all corporations are just out to make a profit with little regard to product, ethics or humanity, is also ignorant. The antidote to ignorance is learning.

sal

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"Never argue with a fool, onlookers can't tell which one is the fool".

 

[jimnolimit]

Interesting thread.

We worked with Carpenter's metallurgists to develop and test numerous steels for them. Many experimental steels as well Carpenter's versions of current exotic steel blends. In some cases, Carpenter's metallurgists "tweaked" the chemistry. The results were mostly positive.

While we made their test mules and shared data with them, we asked them not to make our data public as we were not an "accredited testing agency" and we really didn't want to get into the "fight". They ended up asking us to make new test mules which they sent to CATRA for testing data they could share.

CTS-XHP tested well in our CATRA tests (competitive with other modern high performing blade steels) and was better than "normal" D2 in corrosion resistance. Part of this was the powered process, part was the extra chrome and part was, in my opinion, their "tweaks".

To say that Spyderco is not invoved with steels and does not test is simply ignorant. To say that all corporations are just out to make a profit with little regard to product, ethics or humanity, is also ignorant. The antidote to ignorance is learning.

sal

------------------------------------------------------------------

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers can't tell which one is the fool".

it's my assumption that when steels are CATRA tested all the blades have the same level of edge finish and angle, is this correct?. has anyone tested a steels wear resistance and cutting ability with different levels of edge finishes? it's my thinking that because all these steels have different grain structures, carbide types, sizes and levels that their finish grit could play a roll in how they perform.

also, are edge angles taken it to consideration?

p.s. i have a microscope (20x-400x) hooked up to my computer, maybe i should test a specific steel at cutting cardboard (for example) with 2 or 3 different grit levels of edge finish. then i can take pics of the edge under high power to see how the different edges hold up.

 

[cziv]

Interesting thread.

We worked with Carpenter's metallurgists to develop and test numerous steels for them. Many experimental steels as well Carpenter's versions of current exotic steel blends. In some cases, Carpenter's metallurgists "tweaked" the chemistry. The results were mostly positive.

While we made their test mules and shared data with them, we asked them not to make our data public as we were not an "accredited testing agency" and we really didn't want to get into the "fight". They ended up asking us to make new test mules which they sent to CATRA for testing data they could share.

CTS-XHP tested well in our CATRA tests (competitive with other modern high performing blade steels) and was better than "normal" D2 in corrosion resistance. Part of this was the powered process, part was the extra chrome and part was, in my opinion, their "tweaks".

To say that Spyderco is not invoved with steels and does not test is simply ignorant. To say that all corporations are just out to make a profit with little regard to product, ethics or humanity, is also ignorant. The antidote to ignorance is learning.

sal

Well another tack then.

Does Spyderco have their own batch or brand - for lack of a better word - which would not have these tweaks than the other knifemakers like Dozier, BRKT, Hinderer and others or have you assisted Carpenter in providing a tweaked product for the knifemaking industry? Just curious if all CTS-XHP starts out equal from company to company.

To say that Spyderco is not invoved with steels and does not test is simply ignorant. To say that all corporations are just out to make a profit with little regard to product, ethics or humanity, is also ignorant. The antidote to ignorance is learning.

This might be lingering in your mind from my post earlier in the thread regarding corporations. I didn't but should have mentioned that there are excellent corporations who provide products and services that we demand or consume. I thought that would be a given. Corporations will test, invest and do many things to produce better products that will better fill the consumer's appetite for this or for that. There are, I believe smaller corporations that are very passionate about their products, customer base and are even fellow enthusiasts, who share the same desires and love of their products as the people who they supply.

I was referring to the business model of a corporation - to earn money for the owners/shareholders. Tests, use of products, enjoyment of the business withstanding, it still leads to being about the money. It's the way it is. If business X makes money due to powerful advertising and does no testing or offer no exotic or insightful product features - it makes money, fulfilling it's role. If business Y is run by executives who love the products, use them, dream of creating better products and make profits, that's great, but if they don't make profits they soon develop problems and almost always disappear from the scene.

I never read a post that said "all corporations are just out to make a profit with little regard to product, ethics or humanity." I alluded to "large corporations are in the business of separating us from our money" nothing more. I'm sorry that struck a negative cord inside you sir, as your company isn't by comparison, a large corporation. But think about it next time you get burned on interest rates by a large corporation like a bank, write a check for a new machine, delivery truck or the next time you're at the gas pump.

 

[GerroldP]

I was not aware of CATRA before. So, if anyone wants to have the appropriate tests to test knives they should invest in the equipment CATRA is using and perform the following CATRA Tests.

Correct??

 

[hardheart]

CATRA is not the absolute, but it does provide standardized tests and matching equipment sets to allow tests to be repeated with consistency.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hi Jimnolimit,

it's my assumption that when steels are CATRA tested all the blades have the same level of edge finish and angle, is this correct?. has anyone tested a steels wear resistance and cutting ability with different levels of edge finishes? it's my thinking that because all these steels have different grain structures, carbide types, sizes and levels that their finish grit could play a roll in how they perform.

also, are edge angles taken it to consideration?

We use a goniometer to check edge angles. We test at different edge angles, different hardness, different edge thicknesses, and different finishes.

p.s. i have a microscope (20x-400x) hooked up to my computer, maybe i should test a specific steel at cutting cardboard (for example) with 2 or 3 different grit levels of edge finish. then i can take pics of the edge under high power to see how the different edges hold up.

Testing can be tricky. For CATRA testing, we use a specially formulated card stock (madee in France) with specific amounts of materials (abrasive content, etc) to ensure consistency.

sal

 

[DennisStrickland]

the sad truth is all knife companies need to make money or what is the point of being in business. --dennis

 

[Sal Glesser]

Well another tack then.

Does Spyderco have their own batch or brand - for lack of a better word - which would not have these tweaks than the other knifemakers like Dozier, BRKT, Hinderer and others or have you assisted Carpenter in providing a tweaked product for the knifemaking industry? Just curious if all CTS-XHP starts out equal from company to company.

The goal was to create better USA made blade steels for the knife industry. All of the steel should be the same for all. We have discussed a "custom" steel with Carpenter but nothing has been planned. But even a "custom" steel would be available to all makers. CTS-BD1 is a "custom" steel that any maker can buy.

This might be lingering in your mind from my post earlier in the thread regarding corporations. I didn't but should have mentioned that there are excellent corporations who provide products and services that we demand or consume. I thought that would be a given. Corporations will test, invest and do many things to produce better products that will better fill the consumer's appetite for this or for that. There are, I believe smaller corporations that are very passionate about their products, customer base and are even fellow enthusiasts, who share the same desires and love of their products as the people who they supply.

I guess it is not a given.

I was referring to the business model of a corporation - to earn money for the owners/shareholders. Tests, use of products, enjoyment of the business withstanding, it still leads to being about the money. It's the way it is. If business X makes money due to powerful advertising and does no testing or offer no exotic or insightful product features - it makes money, fulfilling it's role. If business Y is run by executives who love the products, use them, dream of creating better products and make profits, that's great, but if they don't make profits they soon develop problems and almost always disappear from the scene.

I never read a post that said "all corporations are just out to make a profit with little regard to product, ethics or humanity." I alluded to "large corporations are in the business of separating us from our money" nothing more. I'm sorry that struck a negative cord inside you sir, as your company isn't by comparison, a large corporation. But think about it next time you get burned on interest rates by a large corporation like a bank, write a check for a new machine, delivery truck or the next time you're at the gas pump.

I must admit that I felt finger pointing. I believe that "corporation" has become a buzz word for finger pointing and negativity. Problem? let's blame it on the corporations!

Most corporations are small and privately held, and many corporations run their company in similar ways that we run our "corporation". They care about their products, their customers, their standards and they try to give their customerrs a good deal.

I've been burned plenty. Sometimes by "Large corporations" but more often by dishonest people. My bad for trusting them.

I am often confused by our willingness, almost an obsession to find someone to blame for everything. As though once the "blame" is found, the problem is somehow solved.

Hi Dennis,

Not all knife companies are the same, just as not all customers are the same, and perhaps the point of being in business is to make a better product because too many companies are "just making money" and good products are getting harder and harder to find? Is that possible for you to believe?

Funny how these threads get hijacked? Must be caused by the...............................................

sal

 

[sodak]

I never read a post that said "all corporations are just out to make a profit with little regard to product, ethics or humanity."

You wrote it, post 63. I suggest you choose your words more carefully. I'm very thankful for corporations, especially large ones, that make my medicine affordable, pioneer things like MRI's so that I don't have to have exploratory surgery, and bring heat and power to my house. I can always choose not to do business with them if I want to.

Back to the steels. CPM 3V is a very tough act to follow, IMO. Great strength and wear resistance. The lack of stain resistance is of no concern to me, YMMV. Having said all that, I'm anxious to try CTS-XHP. It sounds great, and I love trying new steels.

I agree with other posters that heat treat makes a big difference. Hardness doesn't always tell the whole story. I personally think that if a steel is easy to heat treat, your chances of getting a good blade go up dramatically, and that's important to me.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Another discussion could be the individual differences in different steels in addition to edge angle, edge thickness and heat treat. As Noctis mentioned, the actual chemistry of the steel will give the steel different cutting abilities.

When I was younger, had more hair and my eyes worked better (they don't make eyes like they used to ), I used to shave with a straight razor. Occassionally I would make a razor out of a particular steel and shave with it for a month or so. Steels that I thought would be great, weren't. Certain steels had the right chemistry to shave hair better than others.

That's why testing is good. All testing has merit because it adds to the body of knowledge.

Many in the knife industry really liked D2 as a blade steel. (eg; Bob Dozier) 1.6 carbon is very high for an ingot steel and the cutting charactaristics of D2 are credible. the major objection was the low chrome. Carpenter wanted to use the powdered process to try to create the ultimate D2. CTS-XHP is what they came up with.

We introduced the steel for them in a production model so knife people could get to taste the flavor. It's a difficult steel to manufacture and Carpenter had more problems than anticipated. Carpenter was very serious about solving the problem (the bad batch looked like a crime scene at the foundry). They are again producing and shipping the steel and I believe you will see knives hitting the market with this steel very soon. I believe steel-heads will enjoy the characteristics of this new blade steel.

Please try to keep in mind that creating a new powdered steel is not an easy task and Carpenter should be commended for their efforts and investment.

sal

 

[The Mastiff]

I recall Crucible having a bad batch of CPM D2 as well. Metallurgy is a science, but , like cooking , getting the cake to taste good is a matter of trial and error, not crunching numbers. I'm glad these guys are trying to get better and better steels.

I sort of hope they never succeed with the "perfect" steel. Joe

 

[Noctis3880]

Another discussion could be the individual differences in different steels in addition to edge angle, edge thickness and heat treat. As Noctis mentioned, the actual chemistry of the steel will give the steel different cutting abilities.

When I was younger, had more hair and my eyes worked better (they don't make eyes like they used to ), I used to shave with a straight razor. Occassionally I would make a razor out of a particular steel and shave with it for a month or so. Steels that I thought would be great, weren't. Certain steels had the right chemistry to shave hair better than others.

That's why testing is good. All testing has merit because it adds to the body of knowledge.

Many in the knife industry really liked D2 as a blade steel. (eg; Bob Dozier) 1.6 carbon is very high for an ingot steel and the cutting charactaristics of D2 are credible. the major objection was the low chrome. Carpenter wanted to use the powdered process to try to create the ultimate D2. CTS-XHP is what they came up with.

We introduced the steel for them in a production model so knife people could get to taste the flavor. It's a difficult steel to manufacture and Carpenter had more problems than anticipated. Carpenter was very serious about solving the problem (the bad batch looked like a crime scene at the foundry). They are again producing and shipping the steel and I believe you will see knives hitting the market with this steel very soon. I believe steel-heads will enjoy the characteristics of this new blade steel.

Please try to keep in mind that creating a new powdered steel is not an easy task and Carpenter should be commended for their efforts and investment.

sal

Hmm, any plans on a full production run of a folder in that steel?

I for one am looking forward to Carpenter's CTS-20CP in the Para2 sprint run:thumbup:. It would be interesting if it could pound Crucible's CPM-S90V into the dirt.

 

[Trent Rock]

All other steels are far behind and whoever can recognise that already switch to CTS-XHP - Hiderer doing his knives only with this steel - price jump twice, but it is steel hard to find knives.



This is best performing steel made in USA, but for some reason it did not make it's way to US knife market. Only German maker Hiderer uses it.

Instead we are pushed to believe that EU made steel - Elmax and M360, which show poor performance are superior to everything made in US. This is very strange trend to me. I was expecting this steel being dominating US knife market in a year once it was accidentally introduced, because superiority of this steel hard not to notice, but after year it is not in production at all (except Hiderer which is made in Germany).

Thanks, Vassili.

If your going to post La-Z-Boy marketing/sales observations===>
Shouldn't you be posting the current PRICE of the various steels you test?
Like price per billet,pund or metric tonne? Or what ever the industry standard unit of measure is?
Is it possible that your preferred ideal steel has not "dominated the market" because of the price?
Knife companies do marketing surveys and cost/benefit analysis (profitability) reports ya know .....

Assuming that the cash flow calculated does not include the investment made in the project, a profitability index of 1 indicates breakeven. Any value lower than one would indicate that the project's PV is less than the initial investment. As the value of the profitability index increases, so does the financial attractiveness of the proposed project.
Rules for selection or rejection of a project:
If PI > 1 then accept the project
If PI < 1 then reject the project

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break-even_analysis

 

[DennisStrickland]

after 17 months on the forum i think steel discussion always gets the pots rattling more than anything else. it's good that the interest is there since the squeeky wheel gets more attention..--dennis i truly believe that most or us would be happy with 440c & 1095, but also admit i'm as guilty as the rest of you guys in trying m390. m4, & elmax.

 

[Buffalohump]

I love new steels too, but I feel we are missing a trick here. CPM-M4 is a fantastic steel (super tough, super easy to sharpen, great edge retention). Even most steel snobs seem to agree on this! eek.

Its only real 'problem' is that it rusts easily.

Now Spyderco has one of the best (if not the best) coatings in the business. So why are we not seeing more CPM-M4 with Spydies' DLC?

This to me would be the end all and be all solution!

Sorry if this is tangent but this thread has already veered all over the road and I'm hoping SG might chip in here.

 

[hardheart]

DLC isn't much of a corrosion inhibitor, it is porous and applied in a very thin layer.

 

[Buffalohump]

Eh? Really? What's it for then?

DLC isn't much of a corrosion inhibitor, it is porous and applied in a very thin layer.