Cts-xhp

Buffalohump said:
I love new steels too, but I feel we are missing a trick here. CPM-M4 is a fantastic steel (super tough, super easy to sharpen, great edge retention). Even most steel snobs seem to agree on this! (:eek:).

Its only real 'problem' is that it rusts easily.

Now Spyderco has one of the best (if not the best) coatings in the business. So why are we not seeing more CPM-M4 with Spydies' DLC?

This to me would be the end all and be all solution!

Sorry if this is tangent but this thread has already veered all over the road and I'm hoping SG might chip in here. ;)
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I think you answered your own question here, remember most people who use knives aren't here on BF.

So looking at that we have a few things, M4 is not stainless, it's hard to sharpen compared to steels that most are using outside BF. A lot of people would have a hard time sharpening S30V so something like M4 would be very hard for the masses. I think we forget that we are a small group here on BF and we don't represent the normal knife user.

There are a lot of 440A, B and C blades out there and 420 HC and even steels that are less than those that people are using out in the world.

Give some of these people who is used to gas station knives something like M4 or even S30V and they wouldn't know what to do with it, more less be able to sharpen it.

Remember most buy knives at Wally World, Gas Stations and Flea Markets....
 
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Ankerson said:
Yeah we here on BF make up for a very small percentage of knife users.
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But I suspect we make up a respectable percentage of sales. Most people I know only buy just the one knife and they're done with it. One of my coworkers still insists on using his old SpecBump which had the SpeedSafe broken for quite some time now rather than sending it in or even replacing it.

Who but knife enthusiasts would have a drawer full of knives? Particularly those in the $200-$400 range? I have serious doubts that even someone using knives strictly as tools and not "into" knives would spend so much as $100 on a single knife.
 
Ankerson said:
There are a lot of 440A, B and C blades out there and 420 HC and even steels that are less than those that people are using out in the world.

Give some of these people who is used to gas station knives something like M4 or even S30V and they wouldn't know what to do with it, more less be able to sharpen it.

Remember most buy knives at Wally World, Gas Stations and Flea Markets....
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^ i agree.

i always take maintenance and sharpening into account when recommending a knife to someone. a premium knife steel is only "better" if the owner can maintain it properly.
 
Noctis3880 said:
But I suspect we make up a respectable percentage of sales. Most people I know only buy just the one knife and they're done with it. One of my coworkers still insists on using his old SpecBump which had the SpeedSafe broken for quite some time now rather than sending it in or even replacing it.

Who but knife enthusiasts would have a drawer full of knives? Particularly those in the $200-$400 range? I have serious doubts that even someone using knives strictly as tools and not "into" knives would spend so much as $100 on a single knife.
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I think you're right. My first "real knife" that I bought (different from the Kershaw I got one year for my birthday or Christmas, I forget which, a long time ago) once I started paying attention to knives again, was a Cold Steel Recon 1 clip point with wicked serrations, and I think I paid the then hefty sum (for me) of $65 or so. And I thought I was getting something really great. Actually, it's an alright knife, but not like some Zero Tolerance, Benchmade, Kershaws, Strider, yada yada....

For me to go into the over $100 figure was a work in progress. Now? Not a problem. For the average guy, $100 for a knife is serious money, especially considering very decent knives like the Tenacious can be had in the $30 range.
 
Folderguy said:
...However, some of my favorite knock around knives have the 8Cr13MoV blade. Most of those knives come in under $40, some of them get to me for $15 shipped.

Why do I buy the lower end knives "with clearly poor performance" that "slip to the market"? Because I like them. Great bang for the buck.
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I am not talking about poor performer priced low. I do not see any problem here. But there are quite a few examples of steel which performs pretty poor but with premium price. Best example Takefu Special Steel - SGPS (SG2), it is on same place as AUS8 on my test but price were much much higher.

Another example CPM S30V - which replace CPM 440V (S60V). It has pretty average performance on my tests as well as later on CATRA tests publiched in "Knife Illustrated" Oct 2010 (manufacturers never publish their tests, so there is no evidence that they even did any). It has about twice lower performance on CATRA then CPM S60V (which is even better then CPM S90V)! But were the prices much different when that "equal" replacement happen?

I do remember very well all those cries about new super steel - CPM S30V in about 2003 time frame. Everybody from everywhere was pushing for it.

You may check Steel FAQ here:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=368828
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
CPM S30V - ...The newest stainless steel from Crucible, purpose-designed as a
cutlery steel. This steel gives A-2-class toughness and almost-S90V
class wear resistance, at reasonable hardness (~59-60 Rc)...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
While it is clearly not as tough as A2 and way behind CPM S90V.

While only difference was actually lower wear resistance which make it much easier to grind - this is what was specially designed for knife industry. In result of course being way lower performer then CPM S60V.

So I am not talking about Great bang for the buck. Well at least from consumer perspective...

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
I am not talking about poor performer priced low. I do not see any problem here. But there are quite a few examples of steel which performs pretty poor but with premium price. Best example Takefu Special Steel - SGPS (SG2), it is on same place as AUS8 on my test but price were much much higher.

Another example CPM S30V - which replace CPM 440V (S60V). It has pretty average performance on my tests as well as later on CATRA tests publiched in "Knife Illustrated" Oct 2010 (manufacturers never publish their tests, so there is no evidence that they even did any). It has about twice lower performance on CATRA then CPM S60V (which is even better then CPM S90V)! But were the prices much different when that "equal" replacement happen?

I do remember very well all those cries about new super steel - CPM S30V in about 2003 time frame. Everybody from everywhere was pushing for it.

You may check Steel FAQ here:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=368828
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
CPM S30V - ...The newest stainless steel from Crucible, purpose-designed as a
cutlery steel. This steel gives A-2-class toughness and almost-S90V
class wear resistance, at reasonable hardness (~59-60 Rc)...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
While it is clearly not as tough as A2 and way behind CPM S90V.

While only difference was actually lower wear resistance which make it much easier to grind - this is what was specially designed for knife industry. In result of course being way lower performer then CPM S60V.

So I am not talking about Great bang for the buck. Well at least from consumer perspective...

Thanks, Vassili.
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CPM-S90V was the upgrade for CPM-S60V not CPM-S30V......
 
Ankerson said:
CPM-S90V was the upgrade for CPM-S60V not CPM-S30V......
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No it was not. CPMS90V (CPM 420V) was not new at all and did co exist with CPM 440V for quite some time. But it was rejected by knife manufacturers because it require more grinding an had worse performance then CPM S60V (see CATRA results for "Knife Illustrated" Oct 2010). At that point CPM S30V emerged with way lower wear resistance and way lower performance.

All models which had CPM 440V (S60V) were replaced with same models but with CPM S30V (Spyderco Military, Kershaw Avalanceh, Kershaw Boa etc... So CPM S30V replace CPM S60V.

Only Microtech made few knives with CPM S90V. More appear later in few years when it became clear that CPM S30V is far far from being super performer.

And everywhere that time it was talks about new supersteel - push was enormous!

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
No it was not. CPMS90V (CPM 420V) was not new at all and did co exist with CPM 440V for quite some time. But it was rejected by knife manufacturers because it require more grinding an had worse performance then CPM S60V (see CATRA results for "Knife Illustrated" Oct 2010). At that point CPM S30V emerged with way lower wear resistance and way lower performance.
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You are the one who is wrong....

Phil Wilson said:
Jim and all. You are right, CPM S60V has a pretty low impact toughness (Charpy value) at hardness above 57 RC. In fact is less than D2 at the same hardness. Tensile and compressive strength (bending and denting) is adequate for knife blade as long as it is used as a slicing type moderate force blade. It can even be pushed to 58/59 RC for that application and will have great wear resistance (edge holding) due to the vanadium carbide load. They way to think about CPM S60V is the way Crucible describes it "basically 440C with added carbon and vanadium to form vanadium carbides for wear resistance". CPM S90V was introduced as an upgrade and has less chrome but more vanadium. Chrome works for corrosion resistance but does tend to make the steel less ductile. The higher vanadium percentage in S90V makes it a tad stubborn to heat treat and that is why higher temps are required to get a good hardness snap. We also have to keep in mind that both of these were originally developed for the plastics industry. It is nice that they make good knife blades but that was not the original intent. Phil
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And this is from the Crucible website:

http://www.crucibleservice.com/History.aspx?c=7
 
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Ankerson said:
And this is from the Crucible website:

http://www.crucibleservice.com/History.aspx?c=7
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I don't think quoting Crucible or Phil Wilson will make any difference. Vassilii already expressed his firm belief that Knife industry, Steel makers, Custom makers and you(along with other testers) for that matter, are all involved in one giant conspiracy to flood the market with "overstock underperforming steels"...
He's the only one "revealing secrets of real steel performance".
 
Gator97 said:
I don't think quoting Crucible or Phil Wilson will make any difference. Vassilii already expressed his firm belief that Knife industry, Steel makers, Custom makers and you(along with other testers) for that matter, are all involved in one giant conspiracy to flood the market with "overstock underperforming steels"...
He's the only one "revealing secrets of real steel performance".
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I just want the real truth and good info out there for those who really want to learn. :)

CPM-440VM (6V?) and CPM-420 (9V®, 12V®, 15V®) were a series of steels, not just 2 steels.

CPM-440V is CPM-S60V and came out around 1995-1996 sometime.

CPM-420V is CPM-S90V and came out in 1999.

CPM-S30V was developed for the knife industry and came out in 2001.
 
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