Custom Knife Makers: Disasters

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The short term spike in the price of Tom Mayo's knives was because he announced that he would no longer be taking orders. This caused panic buying and prices shot up. At some point he started taking orders again (at least his website no longer states that he doesn't take orders) and the price for his knives dropped quite a bit. This goes to show you what can cause fluctuations in the market.
 
Joss said:
What would be interesting is to hear about makers who were at the very top of the game in the 80's and 90's, and where they are now and why. Most of the horror stories discussed here have been of unethical behavior, but I wonder what happens when someone who was at the very top just stop making knives.
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Joss, you and I both own and value our knives made by Robbin Hudson, MS. Unfortunately, he fits right in this category.

As talented a forger and bladesmith as there is, his lack of current work and exposure has dropped him off the planet. (I understand his divorce really killed him, and his subsequent remarriage (?) may help.) I sure hope he gets on the stick. He's not a disaster, but not increasing in value, either. I hope I'm wrong....

Coop
 
RWS said:
IMO, I honestly believe that It'll be extremely difficult to break even on most maker's knives in the long run, especially if the maker ever croaks.

It's because of that that I cannot afford to accumulate $50-$100 grand in somethng that I feel will ultimately depreciate in value.
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I hear several opinions that lack of current work by a knife smith is detrimental to prices of his past work. However, I would think that if a famous maker passes on, his work would be worth more because there will be no more - just like other works of art. A famous painter dies, and usually his work goes up. Whether we will live long enough to see this happen is the real question. I can't afford it, but if I could I would try to buy a Bill Moran bowie. He won't be making many more from what I've been hearing.

Other than that, I would look for up and coming bladesmiths who are trying to make a name for themselves and are selling their products at below the market perceived value. The purveyors are usually first in line for these. Other than that, I would only buy MS knives that from the "top tier" of MSs recognized by many others.
 
Hello Mr Coop,are you the same gentleman who posted about the Robbin Hudson Boar hunter bowie.You had a name like Coop 747 or something close to that(if you are the same person).
That thread about the Hudson bowie and the pictures was a wonderful one.Thank you very much for it.I really enjoyed that.But you are right,a person would be hard pressed to get his money back from a Hudson bowie at this point in time.
 
hdwrlover said:
I hear several opinions, that lack of current work by a knife smith is detrimental to prices of his past work. However, I would think that if a famous maker passes on, his work would be worth more because there will be no more - just like other works of art. A famous painter dies, and usually his work goes up. Whether we will live long enough to see this happen is the real question. I can't afford it, but if I could I would try to buy a Bill Moran bowie. He won't be making many more from what I've been hearing.

Other than that, I would look for up and coming bladesmiths who are trying to make a name for themselves and are selling their products at below the market perceived value. The purveyors are usually first in line for these. Other than that, I would only buy MS knives that from the "top tier" of MSs recognized by many others.
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As far as the first part of your quote, it depends on the maker.

Harvey McBurnette, WW Cronk, and D.E. Henry all made knives that have been sought after and gone up in value. They were "names" in life and death.

Some names that may not be so highly sought after might be Donald Lange, James Porter (deceased ABS Mastersmiths) or people who quit making, like Michael Veit or Keith "Twig" Davis, even a real good friend of mine,
William McHenry. Generally, if a maker's name is not "out there", they tend to be forgotten about, and this translates to lower resale value. Certain people at the upper echelons of collecting can also have a tendency to dictate market desireablity. These would be the heavy hitters, like Ed Wormser or Don Guild, I know them both, I have sold both of them knives, and have seen the effect that their presence has on a show.

The second part can be an awful lot of a crapshoot. I always will believe that you have to buy what you like. It is awful bitter medicine to own knives that you can't stand because you thought that they would be a good investment. I ordered some John Young knives last year, and believe that I will do well with them in the long run. The price was fair, but not cheap. This is balanced by the fact that I believe that Mr. Young has really hit his stride in execution in the last 2 years. Other rolls of the dice were with Chuck Gedraitis, Mike Lovett, David Mosier and Nick Wheeler. None of these guys were in the low priced realm of say, J.L. Williams or Jeremy Krammes, but I don't have the time or inclination to be looking for the next best thing.

If I did not believe in the makers or their work, I would not have purchased it, but in the case of Chuck G., he could have a child someday soon, and that might be the end of Knifemaking as a career. Nick Wheeler could wind up shacking up with a Playboy Playmate, and before you know it, it will be Nick Who? :D


Purveyors are frequently first in line because they have to be willing to buy multiple knives, and they advertise for a maker. Very few collectors with the exception of Danbo do this on a regular basis. :D

The ABS Mastersmith market can get played, just as bad as any other trend or fad. Maybe not Jerry Fisk, or Moran, but there are about 6 Master Smiths that I have seen work out of that is, shall we say, unrefined, and not purposefully so. I am not harshing on the ABS, I am a newly minted Apprentice, I am saying that NO group is immune to the vagaries of the newest and bestest's desireablity or lack thereof.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
hdwrlover said:
I hear several opinions that lack of current work by a knife smith is detrimental to prices of his past work. However, I would think that if a famous maker passes on, his work would be worth more because there will be no more - just like other works of art. A famous painter dies, and usually his work goes up. Whether we will live long enough to see this happen is the real question. I can't afford it, but if I could I would try to buy a Bill Moran bowie. He won't be making many more from what I've been hearing.

Other than that, I would look for up and coming bladesmiths who are trying to make a name for themselves and are selling their products at below the market perceived value. The purveyors are usually first in line for these. Other than that, I would only buy MS knives that from the "top tier" of MSs recognized by many others.
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Moran stuff is already insanely priced. Seems to me that if you don't already have one, you'd best look elsewhere for investments.
 
hdwrlover said:
I hear several opinions that lack of current work by a knife smith is detrimental to prices of his past work. However, I would think that if a famous maker passes on, his work would be worth more because there will be no more - just like other works of art. A famous painter dies, and usually his work goes up. Whether we will live long enough to see this happen is the real question. I can't afford it, but if I could I would try to buy a Bill Moran bowie. He won't be making many more from what I've been hearing.
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No, I think they get forgotten. Even reg. the Cronk and Henry of this world, I think the prices have been flattish (so not a disaster but hardly a successful investment either). There are many more dead artists who have become total nobodies than legends.

I'd love to get a Moran, but at the price they're currently fetching, I don't think they're a good investment. Obviously, if you could get one below the going rate (e.g., if Bill decided to make you one...), you'd do all right but otherwise I'm not sure.

Other than that, I would look for up and coming bladesmiths who are trying to make a name for themselves and are selling their products at below the market perceived value. The purveyors are usually first in line for these. Other than that, I would only buy MS knives that from the "top tier" of MSs recognized by many others.
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I agree that's probably a good strategy, but youg makers are becoming better educated on the value of their stuff faster nowadays (and so much the better for them!)
 
m10commander said:
I would add Steve Ryan because his knives are over-priced to begin with.
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I for one am looking forward to his prices cratering so I can get one. :D
 
Raj said:
That thread about the Hudson bowie and the pictures was a wonderful one. Thank you very much for it. I really enjoyed that. But you are right, a person would be hard pressed to get his money back from a Hudson bowie at this point in time.
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Hi Raj,

Yup, that was me before I changed my forum name. I still own the Boar Hunter, and it is a knife with human history that defies investment.

Robbin deserves a call.... :)

Coop
 
Hi Coop,that previous post of yours about the boar hunter did spark my interst in Hudson knives to a great extent and I did call, and email.Heard the story of the deep sea diver who wanted it to boar hunt(if my memory serves me right).That is a great story and a great knife to go with such a story.Hard to put any price on such a knife.Hudson makes very nice knives but he is not among the more well known ABS mastersmith's.
 
I think that there have been some very convincing arguments,Steve (Kohai)
makes some very good points as do others.I started as a collector/maker,I am now more of a collector/dealer.
As for me having only a few makers,I have many pieces,believe me they are by all sorts of folks.As for what I call "money knives" well that is limited to a select few makers that I know I can turn anytime.I also agree that a well heeled collector can temporarily direct a market,will not last too long but can have an immediate effect.
In my opinion it is not too late to get on board the Loveless and Moran market,they keep going up and will continue that trend for a while.
Stick with the proven makers and you will not go wrong (Lake,loveless,Walker,Moran)
As for Emerson customs,I still sell quite a few but mostly buy these days at the artificially lower prices,as for the future my feeling is they will turn a nice profit,after all Ernie only makes so many customs and has not taken orders for years.
Dave
 
Ryan is an odd name to be on this thread, because the quality of his work has continued to go up and up in the past five years while his output in the same time has dropped considerably. He also has stopped taking orders since about 2002. His direct prices are quite reasonable, too, but the prices are usually doubled by purveyors before hitting the public. If you have not actually held one of his recent folders, you owe it to yourself to do so before passing judgement!

As much as I admire my esteemed colleague Mr. Ellis, I must respectfully disagree with his Emerson outlook. There is a true disaster market, with most folders selling for half their 2000 prices, or worse. You can find many models selling for relatively close to table price, and you no longer need a lottery to sell his knives at a show. The why is straightforward: since he opened his factory, the quality of the knives has suffered considerably. The fit and finish of a recent knife is completely different from a 1995 model of the same knife, as are the materials, to the point of being unrecognizable as having the same maker. Add to the thinner liners, cheaper steel, poorer finish, mismarked blades, and huge increase in supplied knives to the market the fact that many models now have production versions readily available at a fraction of the cost (using the exact same materials!), and you have the definition of "disaster". Fortunately for Dave, he has some of the best, rarest, and most collectible old style, real deal, hard using Emersons around!

BTW, its unfair to put Dale Reif in this thread because its supposed to exclude crooks.
 
jbravo said:
Ryan is an odd name to be on this thread, because the quality of his work has continued to go up and up in the past five years while his output in the same time has dropped considerably. He also has stopped taking orders since about 2002. His direct prices are quite reasonable, too, but the prices are usually doubled by purveyors before hitting the public. If you have not actually held one of his recent folders, you owe it to yourself to do so before passing judgement!
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Secondary market values on Ryan's stuff is out of this world though. I guess it would be a good buy if you could get one direct...heh
 
Kohai, Steve Roos, and Joss,

Thanks for your responses and sharing your experiences. I will try to learn from them.
 
Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion.My opinion on current Emersons vs. old Emersons (Customs of course)
is that Ernie is still making one of the finest Tacticals around,bar none.
Reputation will only carry you so far,I have followed Emerson since 1988 and you pick up his new Rhino,or his bolstered and scaled CQC-8,thick,thin,medium liners,makes no difference,I have yet to have one fail or returned....ever.Now let's talk a bit about Ernie's fixed blades,by far the sleepers of the line.Every one of them a real Man killer,doing exactly what they were designed for as well or better than any fixed blade on the market. Expensive?certainly not compared to Hartsfield.
As for Ernie supposedly flooding the market with Knive's let's take this into perspective,Ernie shows up with 50 knive's,custom knives at that.There are mobs of people waiting to pay retail,many who immediately flip the piece for a tidy profit (than they sell to me and I do my thing,3 to 4 sales on one knife is not uncommon at the shows).Now look at the growing Worldwide demand for Emerson Knive's, 50 Knive's making a dent,you have to be kidding me,there will never be enough customs to satisfy the demand and eventually Ernie will show up with nothing or few.
Now for those that doubt my words feel free to get all of your Emerson Customs,look at what you have in them and two years from now you tell me that they lost money more than that xyz brand custom you have wanted for years (ie" Americanized Tanto,boy did I want one in 1988,Norm Bardsley filled the bill back then.
Dave
 
Hi Dave,

You need to look at Emerson's knives closer or look at other tactical folders being made.

Quality has never been an Emerson trait. You should take a look at work by Kit Carson, Bob Lum, RJ Martin, Bob Terzuola, Scott Sawby, Brian Tighe and John W Smith, just to name a few. Even the $375 knife by Mike Obenauf is equal in quality to the current flavor of Emerson folder.

As Johnny pointed out, you do have some older Emerson's and those will hold their value and perhaps go up as Emerson continues to fill orders and bring any where between 25 and 81 "custom" knives to shows. Don't you find it amazing that he could bring 81 custom knives to the Blade Show two years ago. That was almost his annual output 7 years ago.

Emerson knives are not experiencing an artifical downward price. They are just returning where they should be. As JBravo has pointed out, give it 5 years and there will not be a lottery.

You want a great investment, start buying knives by Kit Carson. Knives made by someone who actually was in the Military and not just pretended to be.

Lastly, it's nice that he stopped taking orders since he still hasn't filled orders from 7 years ago. You would think some of those show knives would have filled those orders.

You may have a little too much invested to be objective.

WWG
 
Ellis said:
Now let's talk a bit about Ernie's fixed blades,by far the sleepers of the line.Every one of them a real Man killer,doing exactly what they were designed for as well or better than any fixed blade on the market. Expensive?certainly not compared to Hartsfield.
As for Ernie supposedly flooding the market with Knive's let's take this into perspective,Ernie shows up with 50 knive's,custom knives at that.There are mobs of people waiting to pay retail,many who immediately flip the piece for a tidy profit (than they sell to me and I do my thing,3 to 4 sales on one knife is not uncommon at the shows (ie" Americanized Tanto,boy did I want one in 1988,Norm Bardsley filled the bill back then.
Dave
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1. Hartsfield is the ABSOLUTE KING of SELF PROMOTION, so a comparison to Emerson, and his prices, is totally unfair, and unrealistic. You could not give me a Hartsfield, I would wipe my butt with it. An Emerson, well, if it actually had two grinds, I might keep it.

2. It is pretty easy to make a great fixed blade knife. You have made some, Mike Manabe made some, I have a whole list of makers that have made great fixed blade knives, and it starts with Rod Chappel. Now THERE is a sleeper for you. When I found Rod in 1992, he was working in a small room at a gun range, sharpening knives to keep the electricity running.

3. 50 knives at a show,"custom made", that is a lot of knives. Those are numbers that even Pat/Wes Crawford and Bob Dozier might have a problem getting to.

4. "Mobs" of people waiting to pay retail on anything is good for the here and now, but it don't make it an investment. Not sure if you remember that far back, but Jess Horn used to have a lottery for his knives. Now, they are not dead dogs, but they are not HOT like they used to be.

5. Bob Lum is, was and always will be the King of the American Tanto. :D

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I also have great respect for Phill Hartsfield and his work.
Time will tell and as for Kit Carson and some of the other makers mentioned,they are as good as they come as are many others.As I do have a horse in the race as they say when it come's to Emerson Knive's,I also have over 70 Loveless Knive's and a couple of other of the more collectible makers,been doing pretty well with them for a few years now,God willing the coming years will also be good and you know what,quality stands the test of time and I suspect Ernie will be around just about as long as he chooses.
You all do not see me post much but every once in a while it is kind of fun to get into the fray.Hope we can all have this debate over a cold one in the pit one of these days
Dave
 
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