Custom Knifemaker Lee Williams' Anti-"Flipper" (Immediate Reseller) Stance

As knife lovers we should all get upset at this practice.
I don't know about other here, but i am not made of money and i work very hard for my money, two jobs in fact.
Im not poor, but im not rich.
What bothers me most about the practice of the flippers is that it makes it next to impossible to get most of these knives.
While i could afford table prices on most of these knives or exclusives, or sprints, i cant afford the 2x markup on these knives.
It also bothers be that flippers sell stuff and are successful. I list knives here at a loss to me and still have a very difficult time selling, lol.

A flippper winning a bid, or buying up stock takes those knives away from us regular joes who really want and desire the knife its just we were not blessed with disposable money.
People are greedy, and people are rude and disgraceful in general. People are selfish.
This isnt changing, in fact its getting worse. People do not care about anything but themselves and money. Its a sad world we live in these days.
This mentality is not just in the knife world, its everywhere with everything.
Gouge everyone for the almighty dollar, step on others to get a leg up. Its sad.

I see it everyday in the business i own. I provide a service. A service people need.
The competition in town charges way too high rates becasue its a needed service, they dont care about a persons budget or lively hood. They want that extra dollar.
I charge what the person can afford and what i can afford to charge them. I dont rape them.
My customers love me for it. And i love that feeling of helping them out and they appreciating me.
Could i be making more money and be more profitable? Sure i could. But i have a soul and am a decent person who enjoys helping others.
I guess im just a lousy capitalist.
 
Duper said:
I always found it odd that people post a knife for sale on this site and then as soon as it sells they immediately mask or delete their asking price from the post. Why the big secret? Does this help perpetuate rising resale costs?

,,,Mike in Canada
Click to expand...
Mike, I always remove the price after receipt of the funds, as a matter of privacy for the buyer. I am definitely not a "flipper" - I only buy knives I want to own and use. Not saying I haven't ever changed my mind on a knife after receiving it, but I don't buy for the purpose of profiting. Still I feel it is up to a buyer whether to disclose what they paid for a knife, not me.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
It's really quite different. Dealers support this hobby, they have to. They take risks by having stock at all times. Their prices are much more tightly controlled by various factors than surge demand for a single piece because of that risk and because they need repeat customers, have to maintain a working relationship with makers and have a lot of long established competition for the dollars. Dealers are long term investors in the knife game and a healthy market is best for them and most act accordingly.

Flippers are dilettantes. Their risk is minimal as they don't maintain stock, but they have an outsized effect of the state of the secondary market. They are picking situations where competition is very minimal and they don't look for repeat customers, so there are no controls on their greed. That's not at all similar to any other segment of the knife market and it leads to unsustainable inflation that can absolutely come back and really hurt makers when the bubble pops on their knives.
Click to expand...

Honestly this doesn't seem any different to me than investing in mutual funds versus day trading. A dealer plays a longer game, accepting less risk for less profit. A flipper tries to capitalize on market volatility, which is risky in the short term because the market is hard to predict. Look at the raging over the DLT Spyderco SFOs. Maybe a couple people got above-market prices for them before they stabilized. They made what, $30? There were a few people asking $50 or $100 more than retail, but did any of them actually sell at that price? And even if they did, was a dozen overpriced flips going to distort the market of literally 1,200 sales? The market rapidly settled down to a rational price. Flippers are in that same spot that all the house flippers were in the 2000s. Some of the made a lot of money, and a lot of them lost it all and more when the market turned.

Furthermore, there's a big spectrum between the two goal posts of "long-established and well respected dealer with a brick and mortar shop" and "guy who flips a knife literally at the lottery table in front of the maker." What's the actual line between someone who is a dealer and someone who is a flipper? Is it community participation? Amount of markup? Amount of time between purchase and sale?
 
madcap_magician said:
Honestly this doesn't seem any different to me than investing in mutual funds versus day trading. A dealer plays a longer game, accepting less risk for less profit. A flipper tries to capitalize on market volatility, which is risky in the short term because the market is hard to predict. Look at the raging over the DLT Spyderco SFOs. Maybe a couple people got above-market prices for them before they stabilized. They made what, $30? There were a few people asking $50 or $100 more than retail, but did any of them actually sell at that price? And even if they did, was a dozen overpriced flips going to distort the market of literally 1,200 sales? The market rapidly settled down to a rational price. Flippers are in that same spot that all the house flippers were in the 2000s. Some of the made a lot of money, and a lot of them lost it all and more when the market turned.

Furthermore, there's a big spectrum between the two goal posts of "long-established and well respected dealer with a brick and mortar shop" and "guy who flips a knife literally at the lottery table in front of the maker." What's the actual line between someone who is a dealer and someone who is a flipper? Is it community participation? Amount of markup? Amount of time between purchase and sale?
Click to expand...
That's the thing, the dealer DOESN'T have less risk. They have more. They have skin in the game. Flippers simply don't.

Your other questions are largely semantic obfuscations, I'm sorry. Yes, it's difficult to draw a hard line, but that doesn't make the behavior any less odious or obvious when it occurs. We're not talking about fringe cases here, we're talking about very direct, immediate behavior without even a veneer of plausible deniability.
 
I saw someone mention flipping a knife bought dirt cheap at an estate sell. I believe there is a distinct difference in flipping direct from the maker/manufacturer and flipping from estates, auctions, pawn shops, flea markets, garage sales, etc. The reason many items are picked up from those for very low prices is due to a lack of visibility to the ideal market and those are often just people in the business of removing "junk". There is a undeniable predatory nature to flipping direct from makers/manufacturers that isn't present with some other types of flipping. You could maybe label is 1st hand flipping vs 2nd hand flipping. This is still different than collecting with intent to sell as collecting with intent to sell is buying something to hold while its value rises and sell later at profit while still predatory the buyer takes on a much greater risk and burden. I know some people buy 2 of a knife one for use and one for collecting and some plan to sell the collector one later and plan to do so at profit. The difference is that the long term is a more risky bet and the owner is burdened with maintaining the items condition and securing it from theft or damages.
 
Hold a lottery, pick several winners of the lottery and then auction it to the highest bidder? Just an idea. The flipper either pays too much and can’t sell it or sees no profit in it.
 
I'm not sure if it's a trend in the knife world. But one trend that I see with flippers in my other hobbies that bugs me is the whole "You can't call me on my price Bro. I sell my crap for I want"
Yes fair enough, its your stuff so ask what you want. But don't spazz out when people tell you what they are willing to pay is far less.
I think the trend started with Facebook. Flippers realised that when you have 10 comments on your sale post saying "Umm its worth $300 not $3000." They knew they were not going to find a victim to pay the $3000
 
Wolverine666 said:
I feel it’s just a rotten thing to do (flip). Especially in this situation with a custom maker and his work.

Death to all flippers.
Click to expand...
The problem is, for every maker like Lee Williams, who actually cares about getting his knives into the hands of those who will appreciate them, there are ten other makers who are 100% complicit in the exploding prices by allowing people from some of these "Customs" sales sites like Ebosshoss, Arizona, and Recon1 (the same people who bring entire crews to knife shows to pad dealer lotteries so they win) to come snap up the cream of the crop of what they brought before the doors of the show even open on the first day. Plenty of makers out there who essentially are selling the picked over remnants of what they had brought....the minute the doors open on Friday. They don't care about their fans or collectors. They would rather make bro-deals that pad the pockets of these flipper companies who are making a killing bilking collectors out of thousands. It is what it is, and I'm personally past being angry about it because until more makers stop being a part of the machine and start calling these scumbags out, and people stop giving them thousands more than these knives were bought direct, it's never going to change. You can either participate and get raped, or you can pass and buy something else.
 
I like flippers, as long as the detent is set right.
Really I see this as distasteful, right in front of the maker. I have to ask what do dealers do? Buy cheap ,sell high.
 
SpySmasher said:
That is certainly the case under the law currently but it doesn't have to be. Other makers of high-end goods (like cars for example) sometimes restrict the sale of their goods in the aftermarket.

Nor is it widely agreed that this is the case morally, as you can see.
Click to expand...

Only under mutual contract.
If the buyer/owner agrees not to resell before hand, then they knew before hand, and agreed to the terms.

Get a signed contract from your customers before they buy.
 
In 2014 I flew across the planet 30 hours to the USN show in Vegas. There were 3 knives I wanted to buy. I put in for the lottery's, I won none.
All three were on-sold a further 2-3 times within a week. There were other knives I wanted but I could not risk being drawn for the lottery knives and then not have the cash to pay for them, so I held back.
By the time the lotterys were drawn all my second choices had sold and I went home with virtually nothing. $10K in airfares, hotels and expenses and very little enjoyment of a knife Purchase. I have never returned and I never will.

I am a collector, I do not buy for a profit or investment. For that I invest, buy property and stocks.
I do not sell my knives, my collection is my passion and joy. I know that there are many collectors here who feel as I do.

Some makers are a joy to work with and are willing to sell a knife to a collector rather than lottery it. As they know the value of that. I will always support them.
Flippers are only there for the cash score. They don't care about makers or the art.

Lottery's and flippers are a fact of life in the modern custom knife world. The advent of the internet and social media means that flippers have a world wide customer base to take advantage of.
I applaud Lee Williams for taking the stand he does. I wish more makers would.

Real collectors treasure their knives, promote knife making and help to push the art forward.
I can name several collectors here who have done that for a particular knifemaker, and they are all the richer for it.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
That's the thing, the dealer DOESN'T have less risk. They have more. They have skin in the game. Flippers simply don't.

Your other questions are largely semantic obfuscations, I'm sorry. Yes, it's difficult to draw a hard line, but that doesn't make the behavior any less odious or obvious when it occurs. We're not talking about fringe cases here, we're talking about very direct, immediate behavior without even a veneer of plausible deniability.
Click to expand...

Wait, we're arguing about the definition of a word, and you're accusing me of semantic obfuscations?

That's literally what a word's definition is. Semantics. You can't argue about what flipping is or is not without semantics. You're saying we should outlaw a business practice without defining what that practice is.
 
I have sold knives at a profit, however every one I have sold is years after I bought it. I collected them, they sat in a safe and weren't used and I decided to sell them to fund something else. But I find selling immediately very distasteful as that is essentially robbing someone else who wants the knife, as a user or collector, of the chance to own the knife at the original price.

I remember back in 2010 I realllllly wanted an XM18 and they were near impossible to find at a reasonable price. I was at blade show and was talking to someone at the Hinderer booth about how hard it was trying to get one. Well I was very lucky and my card was called and the same gentleman who I spoke to earlier helped me with the transaction. He was genuinely happy that I had won the knife instead of a flipper. I still have it, love that knife and the memories I have because of it.
 
madcap_magician said:
Wait, we're arguing about the definition of a word, and you're accusing me of semantic obfuscations?

That's literally what a word's definition is. Semantics. You can't argue about what flipping is or is not without semantics. You're saying we should outlaw a business practice without defining what that practice is.
Click to expand...
Really? Can you point to where I suggested outlawing it? Or where I started arguing about what it is? You're making a strawman argument and pushing hypotheticals in a thread where we're discussing an actual, blatant, real world example of flipping.
 
Officer's Match said:
Mike, I always remove the price after receipt of the funds, as a matter of privacy for the buyer. I am definitely not a "flipper" - I only buy knives I want to own and use. Not saying I haven't ever changed my mind on a knife after receiving it, but I don't buy for the purpose of profiting. Still I feel it is up to a buyer whether to disclose what they paid for a knife, not me.
Click to expand...

Unless someone asked me to mask the asking price I don't see the harm in leaving it. I didn't mean to say this was a flippers method of operation. The transaction could have been discussed and even had the sale price bargained down before funds change hands. It is an interesting history of knife valuations. And I only see it as flipping if the transaction occurs quickly after the knife comes on the market and the price asked is a significant increase. If someone can get to the computer at 4 PM on a Tuesday and buys 3 knives he really doesn't need or want with the express idea of gouging someone else on Wednesday it just seems unfair to the guy who arrived home at 5PM from a hard days work.

,,,Mike in Canada
 
VernonRemington said:
Can anyone say specifically what happened at TKI that made it worse than other shows or was this the straw that broke the camel’s back?

Allen Elishewitz just posted on Instagram a similar sentiment to Lee Williams.
Click to expand...

Yeah I just saw Alan's post. Sad state of affairs.
As a maker I'd be pissed if it happened right in front of me. UNLESS it was another person in the lottery and THEY offered the winner a higher price. I.e, "hey man you just won that knife? I'll give you $200 more than what you bought it for"
To me that's different
 
Quiet said:
The problem is, for every maker like Lee Williams, who actually cares about getting his knives into the hands of those who will appreciate them, there are ten other makers who are 100% complicit in the exploding prices by allowing people from some of these "Customs" sales sites like Ebosshoss, Arizona, and Recon1 (the same people who bring entire crews to knife shows to pad dealer lotteries so they win) to come snap up the cream of the crop of what they brought before the doors of the show even open on the first day. Plenty of makers out there who essentially are selling the picked over remnants of what they had brought....the minute the doors open on Friday. They don't care about their fans or collectors. They would rather make bro-deals that pad the pockets of these flipper companies who are making a killing bilking collectors out of thousands. It is what it is, and I'm personally past being angry about it because until more makers stop being a part of the machine and start calling these scumbags out, and people stop giving them thousands more than these knives were bought direct, it's never going to change. You can either participate and get raped, or you can pass and buy something else.
Click to expand...
I never thought of that. This now alters my perception of the situation.
 
In case anyone is wondering what Allen Elishewitz posted:

Allen Elishewitz said:
Originally I wasn’t going to say anything but I decided to make it official and to kill any kind of rumors down the road: I am not going to attend TKI anymore. I felt the vibe of the show was killed by the way the drawings were handled but what’s more important to me is that the show is filled (about 75%) with day traders/speculators/flippers... whatever you want to call them and there were little true collectors. I am grateful that my knives went to real collectors who appreciate the work and where the knives would stay in their collection for a while. I find the practice of flipping is disrespectful to the makers. You have an artist who has spent time, emotions, sweat and tears to create something just for you to look at it and see what you can make off it. I know this goes on at all the shows but it is never more apparent than at TKI where it is in your face. That’s why I am removing myself from TKI so I don’t have to see it. This has nothing to do with the promoter but everything to do with where the industry has gone. Thank you to all the collectors and makers who have supported us at TKI over the years
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top