Custom Knifemaker Lee Williams' Anti-"Flipper" (Immediate Reseller) Stance

Just talked to a few very well known makers that make art knives. And one said she doesnt care. And actually takes it as a compliment that someone is willing to pay more than what she asked for it.
Another maker said he sells a knife once after that he doesnt seem to care.
That's an extremely good way of looking at things honestly
 
Reitwagen said:
Buying something that I can sell at a profit is not something that I would consider unethical.
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Let's be clear. Flipping is not unethical or any kind of crime.

However..........I have had makers that have made me orders in the past refuse to take future orders saying that they now only sell on lottery.......Why?? My money is as good as a strangers and I have a proven track record of interest in the makers knives??

If a maker wants to lottery some knives that's fine, but when I ask "can I get a knife at Blade next year?" and they flat out refuse saying lottery only, it really pisses me off.

A few years ago I approached a very famous maker about 2 months before Blade and asked if I could get a knife.
Now he knows I live in South Africa and I am a huge fan of his knives and travelling to Blade is a big deal for me.
He says "Steven, come to my table when the show opens and choose what you want from my lottery offerings."
It made no difference to him where the Dollars come from but he knew how much I wanted one of his knives and he sorted me out.
Another very famous folder maker who absolutely does not take orders built me a knife for Blade because he knew how much it meant to me.

It makes no difference to a maker where the Dollars come from, surely as a professional knife maker you would like your knives to go to someone who loves and appreciates them, not just someone who is standing by your table so that they can score cash of your work??
 
We could argue about the definition of 'flipping' till we're blue in the face.

The important thing isn't labels, it's defending a healthy dynamic among makers, manufacturers, dealers, and collectors.

Part of that dynamic is makers selling to collectors at non-market prices. If you're a free market absolutist, that means the maker is placing value on selling their knives at more affordable prices to people who appreciate their work. They are willing to forego a certain amount of dollar compensation to receive some intangible compensation, namely the knowledge that the knife is being enjoyed by someone who loves it and would otherwise be unable to buy it.

Interfering with that dynamic is the problem, full stop.

If the maker is selling at a below-market dollar price in exchange for intangible compensation, and you're robbing them of that intangible compensation, you're a thief. It's that simple.
 
tyyreaun said:
Interestingly, his posts are now gone. Given that they didn't seem to be offensive (and hence, not likely to be taken down by Instagram themselves), I wonder which dealer twisted his arm.
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Not necessarily, somebody could have still reported the post and it disappeared until he contest the removal. IG doesn't show the followers what post were removed, only the person who posted it sees a "This post has been removed due to community guidelines"
 
Reitwagen said:
Buying something that I can sell at a profit is not something that I would consider unethical. Conducting the sale at the place of business where I bought it is, if not unethical, certainly tasteless. I understand the views on this practice, but I also realize that once somebody buys something, it's theirs to do with as they please, even if I think it's inappropriate. Like the guy who put ape hangers on the Triumph that I sold him. Oh, the humanity! That still hurts.
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So what if it's not knives? What if it's clean bottled water in Africa during a drought? Surely it's fine to sell your 10,000 gallons to the local rich person who will sell it for a dollar a cup to people who make 10 dollars a month? Right it's not unlawful after all to make profit and it's not your fault that just that one guy can afford to pay you a 1000$ on the spot for your entire load. And that he makes 50 times what you gotten, that's just good business.

Yeah, I'm purposely being hyperbole, it's a matter of principle. And there are actually laws against it when it comes to essential like food and water in place to make sure nobody takes advantage of people. But suddenly because it's an enthusiasts hobby it's fine and ethics can get out the window? Not in my opinion.
 
The factors for just how unethical or distasteful the act is are innumerable I could begin to list but it is pointless. Most of us have a general idea of what we think of as flippers and the actions takes by them and how they are taken are at the very least distasteful and/or predatory of the market. This makes them a blight on the community discouraging interest as it turns items into unobtainum for some or pushes them into a price spectrum that becomes not worth it. I can't say that people don't have the right to be a flipper but I can't agree with their actions in general.
 
There is a role in many markets where an intermediary is helpful, mostly where financing is an issue or where there is a glut of product. I don't see a glut for what we're talking about.
 
b00n said:
Not necessarily, somebody could have still reported the post and it disappeared until he contest the removal. IG doesn't show the followers what post were removed, only the person who posted it sees a "This post has been removed due to community guidelines"
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Honestly, it's probably exactly like what I was talking about. I bet Lee himself took it down after he started getting bombed by the headers of those knife shows demanding he stop rocking the boat.
 
He sold it below market value and someone knew that and made a profit on him. He needs to value his work higher or except it.

I’ll never by from any kind of flipper whether that’s knives, show tickets or houses but I don’t see anything wrong with it. It’s their property and they can do what they want with it.

That said. Walk away from the table at least. Have SOME decency you greedy bastards. :confused:
 
SpySmasher said:
Did anyone see Lee Williams' brief rant on Instagram about a pair of his customs being flipped (immediately resold) at the recent TKI show? .........
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I’m with Williams. I think the flippers who rip inordinate profits out of an immediate turnover are the pubic lice of the knife biz -- discouragingly easy to run into and annoyingly difficult to get rid of.

On another note... When somebody buys a quality blade and then later seeks to resell it at (hopefully) some kind of profit, what's seen as a “respectable” time frame that wouldn’t cause one to be called a “flipper” (presuming that the profit sought could be called appropriate and not inordinate)? Are we talking just a couple/few months, a year or what?
 
I'm sure this won't be a popular statement, but here it goes. It's this exact community that allows flippers to thrive. The insatiable desire for that knife regardless of the cost. It's the only link in the chain that has any power to stop the practice. I'm sure most makers don't mind the practice as it helps their brand. It builds hype and desire, that's good for business. The flippers won't stop as theirs a ready supply of those collectors willing to spend. All that's left is for the collectors to decide the prices are absurd and not buy. Yet they don't stop either. Everyone has blame and nobody is really willing to stop, so it won't. Just my .02 as a non flipper or collector. This practice is as old as time and won't change unless people don't buy.
 
Lol at people trying to control the free market, and ensure they get every last drop of profit.

That said, build your own private customer base. Lots of people here seem to support it, so why bother selling to the public?

Contract buyers before each purchase not to resell for a year.

But to get upset at the free market that pays them is just silly.
 
Flipping definition: Buying with the intent of creating an artificial profit margin based on perceived value/scarcity. Different from investing or collecting.

Flipping isn't good for business though. Lets take for example the music industry. I know people who saw bands get just popular enough for local market, get to where they were selling tickets rather than door charge, have those tickets get scalped, but because the scalpers artificially inflated the value, the fans couldn't get in, those who did were not as involved, and the bands were unsuccessful. Even if the tickets paid the venue, if there are no fans to buy merch, the band can't buy food, they can't continue. This is a common speedbump for starting acts.

Take for example what happened to that company that was selling a very generic 3V survival knife. The hype combined with the re-selling put their knife into a price bracket that demands 100% F&F, where the original price had some wiggle room. This combined with the mindset (right or wrong I'm not here to discuss) of the main personalities involved, contributed to sinking them. Its like the young movie star that gets their first big movie then self destructs. If the hype is artificial, its generally bad.
Yes there is something to be said for price following demand, but if I'm selling 100$ knives I'm going to be making 100$ knives. If those knives are effectively on the market for $400 then the customer expectation is going to be for a $400 knife, and the sunk cost fallacy means that they act as though its a $400 knife, even though that was never intended. This can be enough to damage the maker's reputation, keep the product from moving as far as it otherwise could, but because its artificial, the maker cannot rely on the benefits. What happens if the maker decides to bump their price to 200$, so that they can expand production, and the flippers leave? Now they possibly have an over-priced knife, and damage to their brand that might not be manageable.

Day-trading adds unnecessary volatility to the stock market, and thus causes additional difficulties to us all. Its the same scam, just different arena.

How do we fix it? As I said before, I don't know that it is a simple thing, but I do think it has a lot to do with the culture of collectors, and how the community acts around it. I think the social pressure of calling out flippers and making them unwelcome is as good as can be done. Helping people value their knives appropriately, and honestly is another thing. I think price removal on ads just makes it harder for people to make a valuation of the market. Even a few data-points help someone get an idea of where the fair price should be. Yes there will always be investors and people looking to drive profit, but at the moment it seems like all they add is artificial scarcity. If you only love a knife because its rare (not the same as knowing the maker or it being custom) and you have had nothing to do with it being made, there is a term for that.
 
Reitwagen said:
These are expensive collector's knives we're talking about, not water during a drought. Nobody needs a custom knife.
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Did you read my entire post? I purposely exaggerated what I said, of course nobody needs a (expensive) knife. I was merely asking where do you draw the line? To me it's a matter of principle. Bad ethics are bad ethics,no matter if it's in a hobby capacity or essential. Is it more scummy to do with something like water or food? Of course. Is gouging hobbyists/enthusiasts better? Sure, Market dictates the price, no question, but just because something is "established" doesn't mean I can't call it out, people don't accept it on a large scale, so why should they accept it on a small scale? And I am not mad because I didn't get a particular knife, I am not a custom collector, I am happy with my production knives. I still can call people out on crap I don't condone.
 
b00n said:
Did you read my entire post? I purposely exaggerated what I said, of course nobody needs a (expensive) knife. I was merely asking where do you draw the line? To me it's a matter of principle. Bad ethics are bad ethics,no matter if it's in a hobby capacity or essential. Is it more scummy to do with something like water or food? Of course. Is gouging hobbyists/enthusiasts better? Sure, Market dictates the price, no question, but just because something is "established" doesn't mean I can't call it out, people don't accept it on a large scale, so why should they accept it on a small scale? And I am not mad because I didn't get a particular knife, I am not a custom collector, I am happy with my production knives. I still can call people out on crap I don't condone.
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Ethics are very subjective. If flipping knives is the worst of it, I'm ok with that world. If I'm being honest I don't find it unethical at all. It's not a necessity, and both sides of the deal enter willingly. No one is forcing people to pay these prices. I get why collectors don't like it, but they're the ones supporting the secondary market, so it seems rather silly to me.
 
21bangbang said:
Ethics are very subjective. If flipping knives is the worst of it, I'm ok with that world. If I'm being honest I don't find it unethical at all. It's not a necessity, and both sides of the deal enter willingly. No one is forcing people to pay these prices. I get why collectors don't like it, but they're the ones supporting the secondary market, so it seems rather silly to me.
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You're right ethics are subjective, and it's a double edged sword, if nobody were to buy inflated prices on the collector side the market would disappear.
 
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