Custom Knives, A Crap Shoot?

I would imagine if anyone named names, there would be a response by folks who loved the knives they got from that maker. I think flaws are the exception rather than the rule and you also have different levels of what people think are a flaw, in the looks department, like "personality" or "hand-made look" that a knife might convey. Functional flaws are another thing entirely, as is wrong materials used kind of flaws. Humans are imperfect and also have good and bad days. It is what arises when a maker is privately informed as to what the customer is unhappy about and what he does,or does not do, to correct it. I imagine that most makers will do what is right by their very nature as creative persons and business persons.

The disappointing part is getting something that you waited a long time for, and then having to send it back and wait some more.
 
There is no doubt that there will be problems with some custom knives, just as there is with some production knives. People might say that it is more acceptable with production knives because they cost less. This is not always the case. High end production knives are moving right into the price range of many custom knives.

What needs to be discussed is how these problems are being dealt with. Are things being made right by the makers. I don't expect there to be no flaws in my custom knives. What I do expect is that any unacceptable flaws will be fixed by the maker. To this point in time I have only had one flaw that I wanted looked after by the maker and this was done immediately and to my complete satisfaction. In production knives I have had three that have needed to be serviced. All three times the service was excellent. In one case the problem was not completely eliminated, but was fixed to such a degree that it was no longer a problem.

If you have had a problem with a knife and you have not been able to get the problem resolved by the maker, then please bring this to the attention of the members here. That would be information that would be of value to the other members here, as long as the maker or manufacturer is named.

One thing that I have always found to be interesting is that members here seem to have no problem naming manufacturers that they have had problems with, but the same can not be said about makers. I realise that in many cases this is because of a true concern about hurting the reputation of said maker. Other times I would imagine that it is done because of a fear of being jumped on by all the supporters of that maker. Though that doesn't seem to stop the people that have had problems with CRK, Strider, Busse, etc. Others probably just don't want to start a flame fest. All valid reasons, but without specifics I fail to see what good these posts do other than to give people a place to vent.

To those of you that think it is ok to complain about custom makers without naming them, can you please tell me what it is that you are trying to accomplish?
 
Keith, I don't believe that my thread is irresponsible. I simpy have stated my experience with custom knives. I believe that I have done fellow knifenuts a service because I have pointed out some things to be wary about. As some people mentioned, I probably wouldn't have had many of these problems if I had bought my knives at shows instead off the internet. I could have checked them more thoroughly for their lockup and sharpness.

I don't think that I have cast a shadow on custom makers. I'm sure they will admit that they makle mistakes and that all of their colleagues may not be the easiest of people to deal with.

If a female student were to say that she had run into sex abuse from professor at my university but wouldn't name names, I would not be offended. I would agree that sex abuse can be a problem and I would agree that both students and professors should avoid situations that can be seen as negative. I think that knifemakers should respond to my and others concerns by doing their best and doing their best to help customers.

In the end, I just say take your time and check out any knife you order. The mistake that I made early on was that I was happy I got a new knife, dropped it in my pocket and carried it around before I noticed through use that the lockup or blade play wasn't quite right. What this meant was that often the exchange period from the dealer had passed or I had already accumulated a key scratch or two which would keep me from returning the knife. At first I just figured that I had some flukes. Now, I understand that a less than ideal fit is not uncommon at all. Therefore, I really check out a knife after I receive it.

I hope to hear from some more makers on this thread.
 
Boink, made an excellent point in that it is really disheartening to wait months for something only to realize that you have to turn right around and send it back. Similarly, it is no fun to spend $300-700, only to realize that the knife has to be sent to the maker or exchanged. That is why I liken buying customs to a crap shoot. Although I appreciate a maker fixing a problem, I hate having to wait for problems to fixed on knife that cost as much as 3-5 high end factory knives. That is why I have decided to really be selective about buying customs. The choosier I am, the more I hope to avaid down time.

One thing, I strongly encourage is that we e-mail each other and ask for our experiences in dealing with makers whenever we decide to give someone a try. I would be more than happy to share my information under those circumstances.
 
Anthony, it is understandable to be upset and disappointed when you ahve to send aknife back. Especially one that you have been waiting for for up to a couple of years. It is a real let down. I have had this problem only once with a custom maker and it was frustrating. It would be even more frustrating if the maker had not been great about fixing my problem.

About that 3-5 high end production knives for the price of a $300.00-$700.00 custom; I guess it all depends on what you consider to be high end production knives. I consider high end production knives to be CRKs, Busses, Striders and upper end William Henrys. Also knives like the Camillus Aftermath, UVB Bowies and Talon, Buck Mayo, Cold Steel Laredo Bowie, Extrema Ratio folders and other such knives. You could not get five of any of these knives for even $700.00 and many of them will cost more than $300.00. As a matter of fact, William Henry have some knives that cost well over $1000.00. Even if you consider knives like the Camillus Dominator or Spyderco ATR you have yourself $200.00 to $300.00 knives. As I have stated, the high end production knives have started to get well into the custom price range.
 
Keith, obviously I could not get three fancy William Henrys for $500, but I could get three nice carbon fiber William Henrys for around $450-550, ditto for Spyderco ATRs or Camillus Dominators. I do see your point, and I agree that price points of customs and factory knives are getting very close. In fact, I have a really nice Brian Geyer carbon fiber flipper folder that basically reminds me of a clipless William Henry that is about about $30 cheaper than a smilarly sized WH.
 
Crap shoot, that's where you roll the dice and hope for the best right? I think that sometimes from an unknown maker you might get something that is less that what you envision, the little pictures in our heads are mighty demanding at times! And boy can they be hard to please. The first thing to do is to contact maker/seller asap and let it be known immediately of your concerns before any blame can come back to you for length of carry.

Someone earlier had mention of Darrel Ralphs Appogee? I would strongly suggest that you take a good look at his recent offerings as they are far superior to what his initial attempts at those folders were, I know, I had one of the very early models and the blade wasn't ground well, thick edged as also. I called Darrel up and he told me his earlier knives were ground a tad thick and I sent it in to be worked on, ended up trading that knife. Then later, I picked up one of Darrel's carbon fiber models, blades were thinner ground, really cuts! and lockup was top notch, huge difference, so please don't rely on that history but check into his latest releases as they are of marked improvement. In fact about a year ago Darrel was kind enough to email me as he remembered my concern about thick edges, his email was very nice and thoughtful and explained that his edges are now thinner and perform very well, and he wanted to let me know. I was impressed, first that he remembered me and second that he'd take the time to let me know, not everyone would admit that they have gotten past some problems or hurdles in making their knives.

Other makers, I've owned so many knives, but none come to mind where I was upset with the quality, possibly sharpness, as I'm a bit edgeanal on that subject and always need to touch things up just a bit when a knife comes into my collection. So I hold no grudge against any maker in the area of sharpness, maybe only to wonder why a knife would leave without it's proper edge, but that'd be it.

And that's all I have to say about that...;)
G2
 
And now we come back to communication.
Communicate with the knife maker before the knife is made. Let him know what you consider unacceptable flaws.
If you are a spinewhacker, for example, let the knifemaker know that you expect your new knife to pass the spinewhack test.
Dull edges not your thing? Let him know that you expect a shaving sharp blade or you will send it back.

Be honest, be upfront and hopefully be happy.

Also, if anyone has ever seen Les really inspect a knife...it is a thing to behold. I watched him go over one of my knives and I learned a bunch from him. Thanx Les :)
 
I can think of one case where it is beneficial that some have criticized custom makers without naming names. I have seen it written before this thread that liner locks on even very expensive customs have been known to fail. This tells me two things. For one, the liner lock does not seem to be the most reliable type of lock. If they can fail on carefully made customs, then perhaps this says more about the design than the individual maker. Maybe I am wrong, but this is the impression I have gotten about liner locks from reading various threads.

The other thing is that, should I ever find myself able to afford a hand made liner lock from a famous maker, I will want to first make sure I do those things mentioned by Ebbtide in the message above. I want to make sure the maker will stand behind the reliability of his knife and fix it quickly if I have a problem.
 
W.T. Beck, its not the design of the liner lock that should be questioned, but the individual execution of it. If you get a chance, read Terzuolas book on making knives, it has a section on that. It really does need to be done just right, but when it is it works very well.
 
It really does need to be done just right
Click to expand...

Mschwoeb,

Might not one say that this is the problem with the design? If a liner lock has to be made more carefully than other types, then it seems reasonable to expect that one is more likely to get a bad liner lock than some other type. The more difficult something is to do, the more likely mistakes will be made. It doesn't mean an absolutely reliable liner lock cannot be made. It just means one is more likely to get a bad liner lock than some other type which is easier to make.
 
But that's what's supposed to be so great about getting a folding custom; you're ideally getting a piece that incorporates a mechanism that's technically difficult to execute, perfectly executed.

Of course, apparently this isn't always the case.
 
Well, there is nothing inherently more difficult about the liner lock than any other. The lockback can be poorly done or properly done also, as can any lock design.
 
This is a most interesting thread.
I have purchased a couple of custom knives, both from Ron at Little Hen knives, and I'm very happy with the knives and ordering experience. No crap shoot for me.
I contacted Ron and explained to him what I had in mind for the style, steel, what the knife would be used for and a price range. We traded emails and drawings until I was satisfied with the design, materials and other options. I really enjoyed this part as Ron took my inputs graciously (I'm sure I was a major pia).
The knives arrived when promised and they exceeded my expections in every respect.
Are they perfect? Yes and no.
They are just as designed and the fit and finish are great. If you look hard enough, you can see that the knives were hand made and each has it's own distinguishing marks and personality. I wouldn't have it any other way.
I have $20 to $200 production knives that look "perfect", with no manufacturing marks and precise fit and finish. Not one of the production knives means nearly as much to me as my LHK Cadet.
It is special to hold a tool that has been handmade by a craftsman - I like to think it has a soul.
Dave
 
TKD,
I am sorry we got off on the wrong foot. My knives have changed many times over the last 3 years. The Apogee is a 3-4 year old knife design. I learn from my customers. At the present I feel there is always more to learn and better ways of making my knives top notch. I will always believe this and continue to improve the quality.

The Apogee was my first frame lock knife. I made the knife to standards that I felt were the best that I could do in that time frame. (3-4 years ago)

The evolution is apparent in my present work. I have listened to many customers and evolved my designs and knives to several levels above the Apogee at this point. Fit and finsh, grinds, hand rubbed blades, and frames, thinner edge, better opening slickness, power assist now, and better lock up to name a few.


Gary,
Thanks for the good words. The newer knives have a better edge yet!
I just added another step in the sharpening process the other day.
Sometimes I just keep tiring new things until I find a process that works well and makes an improvement, then I make it part of the finished knife.

I always take care of my customers from years ago to the present.

I have a knife that was sent back a week or so ago. This knife is 6 years old. The fellow got super glue on the blade and then closed it? Ill make it new again and send it back to its owner.
 
I think the key thing to take from this thread is, "Buyer be Aware." Don't buy a custom sight unseen, unless you have the right of refusal. Don't have a custom built knife made for you unless you get to see and handle more than a few examples of the maker's work. Most of the comments here are about fit/finish, however there are a lot of handmade or custom knives that have good fit and finish, but poor design. Uncomfortable handles, poor lock position, grind inappropriate for the type of knife, it runs the gamut. A knife should fit you, your hand and your intended use. To get this level of satisfaction, it's best to hold it and see it before buying.

The last custom I bought was the best of about 4 knives of a simliar vein from one maker, HK Parker. All the knives were slightly different, with slightly different lock-up, color and design in the natural handles, anodized Ti a little different. I got the best of the 4 in my mind. The worst of the 4, I wouldn't have bought because it didn't match my taste or fit as well in my hand (bone vs. wood handles). The knife I bought is cheaper than a small sebenza but is the same size. It's better looking ("don't buy no ugly knife" ATBarr) and (egads-heresy) has better fit and finish. I could have gotten a WH for a little less, it wouldn't have been ugly, but the fit and finish still would not have equaled the custom. The knife fits my hand like no other. There is nothing like mirror polished ATS34 to get a knifenut's juices flowing. It's done EDC in the office with no sharpening for 4 months. Its ATS34 blade has the best edge holding of any knife I have. However, I wouldn't buy a custom over the internet, because I like to see, feel and compare.
 
A very good post brownshoe. When it comes to buying a custom knife, and any knife really, the purchaser should be as aware of what he/she is getting as is possible.

I do things differently than you. I like to order my knife from a maker as a one of. It is impossible to get to handle a knife like this before you purchase it, so I go by what I have seen of the makers work and their reputation. This is not a guaranty that you will get a perfect knife, but it is the way I personally like to do things. A bit of a crap shoot? Yep, but I am willing to live with that. It has worked out fine so far.

About the only ways that you will be able to handle custom knives before you buy them is to either find a maker that has knives on hand and lives close enough to you or is willing to ship them to you for approval, or you get them from a dealer/purveyor. I prefer to have my custom knives be more personalized than that. I like having input into what the knife will end up looking like. This kind of approach can lead to disappointments, but has so far worked out just fine.

When purchasing a custon knife, be aware and do your research. Learn as much as you can about the maker you are thinking about having make you a knife. Be picky, but also don't expect more than you you should get for the money you are spending. If on the other hand you do get a knife that is above and beyond what you expected, feel free to do a little bragging. If the knife has problems get the maker to fix them. If you have problems doing this, let the rest of us know, but please identify the maker. I have seen a little pressure from the members of this forum cause a maker to fix problems that he seemed reluctant to do until his name appeared here.
 
there is nothing inherently more difficult about the liner lock than any other. The lockback can be poorly done or properly done also, as can any lock design.
Click to expand...

I just did a quick search on liner locks to verify what I thought I have seen frequently in threads. It is often said that the linerlock is less reliable than other types. I have not read any knifemaker's description of how to make a liner lock, so I won't try to analyze why this is the case. But you will find plenty of statements on alot of threads about liner locks being statistically less reliable than other types, and that even expensive custom liner locks have been known to fail.
 
I am a maker of hand forged carbon steel knives and a Journeyman smith in the ABS.
I have seen production knives that were absolutely amazing! I have a CRT in the glove box of my truck. I only hand finish my knives and each knife has a 2000+ grit hand polish and the edges are as square as my eyes and jigs will allow. I can find flaws in all my knives and it would be foolish to say that someone has seen a flawless knife. My costs are low compared to the average custom knife but higher than an average production knife. For instance: I will charge $500 for a 15" Bowie that has taken me 60 hours to make completely by hand, that's roughly $8.33 per hour, not considering the materials in the knife. You can buy a production 15" Bowie with a production time of 1/2 hour for as low as $40. To say that my knife is better than the production knife would be bias without both knives in hand, to say that my knife is a better investment is a sounder statement because of speculation in my future as a maker, to say that either is a "bargain" is up to the customer. To say that one type (production or Custom) of knife is better? Is a prejudice caused by an anticipation of something impossible.

My two cents.

Dale Baxter
www.baxterknives.com
 
A couple of issues with liners locks and poor performance.

Many liner locks are designed and built in such a way as to disengage when the knife is gripped with any level of force. This is due to the finger working it's way into the handle and physically moving the lock. Not so much a problem of the liner lock, but how it was executed in a particular instance.

While a liner lock may look simple on the surface, it does require knowling how to have the lock face engage the tang at the proper point, at the proper distance from the pivot, having the proper finish on the lock face and tang. Have the tang at the correct angle, have the lock cut out from the liner at the proper length. etc. If these things aren't executed properly, there is a good chance the lock will not function properly.

As far as a crap shoot? It doesn;t have to be quite that bad. We have a good forum here and others on the net that give us a good tool to research makers and their skills. A quality maker will make a quality knife. There will be occasioanal bad ones that slip through. That can't be stopped. Everymaker has a bad one go through from time to time. Some of these you never hear about others seem to get slammed hard for a mistake. This happens with production makers as well. CR and William Henry included.
 
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