Custom Knives; Now & Then?

[Lorien]

yeah, and movies nowadays are all about glitz and special effects, at the expense of Acting and interesting story lines. I'm not saying that knives are necessarily in the same boat. But so much of our world exhibits style over substance.
I am of the mind that there is a shift occurring, and that those makers who more closely follow the design principles of men like Moran, Scagel and Loveless- whose designs endure due to their substantiveness and high regard for the human touch- are going to be able to stick around for the next level, and hopefully one of them will create another sea change, if indeed that hasn't already occurred.

 

[Kevin Jones]

There's those who may question the fit/finish of some of Bill Moran's knives, however not many that will question that the ST-24 may the most significant custom knife design ever implemented.

 

[Murray White]

Some of the makers of the past that need to be thought about will include

Doug Casteel

Frank Centofante

Jim Ence

Fred Carter

Harvey McBurnette

Michael Walker

 

[Murray White]

Willie Rigney

Rod Chappel

Ruffin Johnson

Steve Hoel

Steve Johnson

Larry Brandstetter

Lloyd Hale

Al Pendray

D'Holder

Jim Sornberger

Many other makers have been mentioned but unfortunately, I have never been able to acquire something from them to this point of our collecting

 

[Murray White]

TM Dowell

Warren Osborne

dang this 10 image limit thing lol

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

There's those who may question the fit/finish of some of Bill Moran's knives, however not many that will question that the ST-24 may the most significant custom knife design ever implemented.
QUOTE]



I would question that, big time. I am a "Moran-Fan", but have to argue that the Randall #1, Loveless dropped hunter, and Walker liner lock are lots more "significant" than any knife Moran ever made. Moran's real significance was Moran. He was able to organize a resurgence in the desireability of forged knives by promoting thier attributes and history. He was also a great organizer.

 

[jdm61]

There's those who may question the fit/finish of some of Bill Moran's knives, however not many that will question that the ST-24 may the most significant custom knife design ever implemented.
QUOTE]



I would question that, big time. I am a "Moran-Fan", but have to argue that the Randall #1, Loveless dropped hunter, and Walker liner lock are lots more "significant" than any knife Moran ever made. Moran's real significance was Moran. He was able to organize a resurgence in the desireability of forged knives by promoting thier attributes and history. He was also a great organizer.

I happen to think that the ST-24 belongs in that lofty company. Maybe not at the tippy top, but there. With that said, i think that Mr. Moran will and should be remembered first and foremost as a teacher and champion of the forged blade. I think that I am stating the obvious when I say that today, more ABS guys are influenced stylistically by smiths like Jerry Fisk, Harvey Dean, Tim Hancock, etc, but we are ALL philosophically influenced by Bill Moran to the core of our metal pounding being. Many of us poor newbie smiths wouldn't be where we are today if Bill hadn't bucked tradition and decided that everyone should share their knowlege instead of clinging jealously to their closely guarded "trade secrets" like smiths had historically done. This past summer at Blade, Jerry Fisk told me that what the average student learns in two weeks at the ABS school took him at least 5 years to learn by trial and error when he was but a wee lad trying to figure out how to make a knife

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

I happen to think that the ST-24 belongs in that lofty company. Maybe not at the tippy top, but there. With that said, i think that Mr. Moran will and should be remembered first and foremost as a teacher and champion of the forged blade. I think that I am stating the obvious when I say that today, more ABS guys are influenced stylistically by smiths like Jerry Fisk, Harvey Dean, Tim Hancock, etc, but we are ALL philosophically influenced by Bill Moran to the core of our metal pounding being. Many of us poor newbie smiths wouldn't be where we are today if Bill hadn't bucked tradition and decided that everyone should share their knowlege instead of clinging jealously to their closely guarded "trade secrets" like smiths had historically done. This past summer at Blade, Jerry Fisk told me that what the average student learns in two weeks at the ABS school took him at least 5 years to learn by trial and error when he was but a wee lad trying to figure out how to make a knife

What does that have to do with a carbon steel st-24?

Significant knives are generally copied commercially a lot. For good reason.

 

[jdm61]

What does that have to do with a carbon steel st-24?

Significant knives are generally copied commercially a lot. For good reason.

Hmmmm...........unless you consider rise of the "specialty" cutlery firms of the last 20 years or so, I don't think that any of the "legends" has been copied much by production cutlery firms other than Loveless and Walker. I don't know if I ever saw a production version of a Randall Model 1 until Blackjack came out with one in the early 90's and I don't recall seeing many copies of Scagels because arguably nobody would have know who he was but for Bo Randall. Prior to the invention of the liner lock, when I think of designs were copied in a major way by cutlery companies, the first names that pop into my mind are Buck and Gerber.

 

[MVF]

Thanks Kevin (and all who are contributing)- another great thread to enjoy and learn from!

 

[Jose Reyes]

What does that have to do with a carbon steel st-24?

Significant knives are generally copied commercially a lot. For good reason.

I don't know, Anthony. To be mass produced the design would need to be easily reproduced by machinery. If there are too many "axis" to churn out quickly then even a popular design won't be considered. I tend to like a mix of Moran's styling queues during his career to make him my favorite but feel he has made some of the best knives in our history.

Thanks for sharing those pics, Kevin. Murray, at some point I'm going to save enough to buy that Pendray from you, it's one of my favorites... :thumbup:

 

[McAhron]

Comparing Old Masters to New Masters really isnt fair.Today the tools and knowledge about design and manufacture of knives is limitless due to the internet,books,videos,and other media.The old-timers had to figure everything out on their own.Most of the tools were homebuilt.We are spoiled now with all we have availible.I'd imagine if some of these old-timers had access to what we have now this thread wouldnt excist.

 

[severedthumbs]

There's those who may question the fit/finish of some of Bill Moran's knives, however not many that will question that the ST-24 may the most significant custom knife design ever implemented.

I think I would, not a fan of this knife or design. I think there are many more significant designs. edit Lombardo has touched on these.

 

[Kevin Jones]

There's those who may question the fit/finish of some of Bill Moran's knives, however not many that will question that the ST-24 may the most significant custom knife design ever implemented.
QUOTE]



I would question that, big time. I am a "Moran-Fan", but have to argue that the Randall #1, Loveless dropped hunter, and Walker liner lock are lots more "significant" than any knife Moran ever made. Moran's real significance was Moran. He was able to organize a resurgence in the desireability of forged knives by promoting thier attributes and history. He was also a great organizer.

I'm primarily addressing past legends in this thread Anthony.
I would classify you and severedthumbs in the not many as I have come to expect you both to disagree with me on most subjects.

 

[ddd]

Here are four examples of amazing fit and finish fom the '80s...

From the left:
Two matching pairs made by W. W. Cronk made of 440C stainless steel
and engraved by Ron Skaggs. All four knives with rosewood handles.
The "Persian Pair" are 11" (279 mm) long and the "Khyber Pair" are
15" (381 mm) long.

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

From my book "...The Great Collections" (2007)

 

[peterinct]

WOW...this IS another great thread.

Murray,
Your pictures are GREAT and I agree with you on all counts. Excellent way to begin Thanksgiving.

Hope everyone has a good holiday.

Peter

 

[JatMat]

I have knives by Harvey McBurnette, WT Fuller, Blackie Collins, Bob Cargill and others (old guys) and then the current makers Tony and Reese Bose, Jerry Halfrich, Don Hanson and many others of the new folder makers. At the top of their game (old guys), the knives of the 70's vs (current guys) the knives of 2000+ do very well in terms of fit and finish. But, I must admit whether it is training or the equipment available, the newer makers have an edge. (no pun intended). One example is Kerry Hampton, part time maker, His quality is ever bit as good as the examples of Harvey and WT and better than Bob (IMHO). I am not sure of the numbers right now, but at Blade 2008, Kerry had only made 14 knives. But I posted one by Kerry recently in the custom slipjoint thread and it is near perfect in Fit and Finish, easily surpassing the old makers.

Great Thread here, wish I could contribute pictures, but alas the DNS has not hit this area yet and posting is difficult on attachments.

Thanks to all who have shared their knives and stories.
This is just my .02 from 40+ years of collecting and handling the masters of the craft.

Jim

 

[severedthumbs]

i think it is just natural progression that things get better as time progresses. what hasn't gotten better from 100 years ago to now?

 

[jdm61]

I have mentioned this before, but what I have noticed over the last 15+ years is that customs knives in generally have gotten, for lack of a better term, "sleeker" You can even look at some of the fantastic pictures of the older knives in this thread and find a knife with a clunky, too thick guard, etc. There are other things. For example, it is very refreshing to see that every bowie coming out of Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, etc., does not automatically have a flat oval guard with rope filework anymore.

 

[Kevin Jones]

i think it is just natural progression that things get better as time progresses. what hasn't gotten better from 100 years ago to now?

It depends on what you mean by "Better"?

The new 2008 505HP Corvette ZO-6 @ aprox. $75K is considered by some to be the ultimate in automotive engineering and technology for a mass produced sports car.

Yet, is it "Better" than the 1967 435HP Corvette?
This car had a msrp of $4,600 yet examples have sold for over a million.

We tend to love nostalgia and things past.

Sorry to veer off course, but kind of relative to what's being discussed.