Custom Knives; Now & Then?

[canineforge]

A knife that was rarely made, little copied and never mass produced.

I like the knife enough that I had a really nice copy made but as far as significance, I don't think so.

I remember you inquiring about Chris Owens. Was he invovled in this? I have a couple of his knives with wire inlayed handles. He would be capable.

Just curious, Joe

 

[Ken Williams]

Right on McAhron, Hillbillenigma, and Joe, era comparisons are unfair because the emphasis of work evolves over time from the macro world of perfecting form and function to the micro-world of detail and embellishment.

I'll illustrate by the parallel development of the modern sporting rifle with the modern hunter knife. Sorry about using rifles on a knife forum, but I know it better and I think the principles are transferable.

The early (20th century) bolt action rifles first using modern centerfire cartridges (e.g., 7x57) were ponderous, heavy, inaccurate, and exceedingly ugly. Custom makers by the 1960s had generally perfected the macro form and function of the modern custom sporting rifle, to the attention of riflemen the world over, including yours truly. The time was electric for new makers, collectors, and hunters, and I resolved to have a rack full.

The problem for the newbie maker was how to make his mark when the macro world had already reached the summit. The answer, as it is for knives, is to move into the micro-world of intricate refinements, perfect microscopic detail (i.e., fit/finish), use fancier wood/steel finishes, and art embellishments.

The transition period was bewildering for the blue collar guys like me, who found their 1970 Al Biesen masterpiece for $750 degraded to ordinary along side the 1990 museum art rifle for $125,000 smothered in gold, bulino, stocked in a $2,500 piece of Circasian walnut 1,600 years old, which might not have even been sighted in for the obvious reason that a harsh rub can erase bulino like I can erase pumpkin pie without fingerprints. The latter was not better only prettier, and all the new detail and art was prohibitively costly, which priced many of us peons out of collecting. Perhaps this is why I have a grudge against art guns/knives.

To be fair, the successful contemporary makers had to have new visions and innovate in new areas also, but they did so on the coattails of the ancient ones. At the end of the day both deserve kudos for their contributions/expertise, but comparing them is not only unfair, it's meaningless.

Before I move on to turkey and football, I'm forced to mention Coop's favorite integral knifesmith of old. Having a senior moment, I may have his name high-centered on the tip of my tongue, but the images of his fabulous knives are cascading through my mind in vivid colors. He's a rare example of artisans living simultaneously in the macro and micro worlds. It's inexplicable as to why he didn't find more acclaim, which has me stumbling over his name, but perhaps his will be latent fame. Coop, help me out.

ken

 

[Lorien]

A lot of what you said was really cool, Ken, but this was my favourite;

a harsh rub can erase bulino like I can erase pumpkin pie without fingerprints.
ken

 

[jdm61]

The ST-24 could be easily "mass" produced, its a flat ground fixed blade with a mortice tang and convex edge. The Japanese, Chinese and Mike Stewart could make plenty of that knife.

In fact, Moran has had 4 factory collaborations. None very successful. Can you name them?

Actually it is a full convex ground blade. The thing is that Bill's convex grind was more subtle than some others as it was done freehand and not on a slack belt or a rotary platen. On the late Moran that I used to own, the convex was much less noticable than on even some knives by very well known student sof Mr.. Moran. Also, the handle on an ST24 is not morticed, It was drilled filed and burned to fit the tang.
As far as Moran production knves, I was under the impression that the Spyderco Featherweights did okay. I still see them in the display case at places like Bill Jacksons and they have gotten a number of good writeups since they were introduced. I know that Hanwei did a couple and Charlton/Damascus USA did one a long time ago.
As for reproducing the curves and proportions of the knife, a lot of people have tried and a number of them not been able to pull it off. I have tried maybe 15 times over the last 3+ years and have gotten remotely close exactly twice. The blade is tough, but the handle is even tougher.

 

[Unsub]

When it comes to custom knives I think the bar is higher now for fit and finish but lower for actual usefulness and performance although there is a small but growing number of makers who make handmade knives to be used.

My favourite makers are D E Henry and Micheal Price. They did knives that had fi and finish years even decades ahead of their time.

Just check out this Henry bowie.

He was so great at fit and finish that he could hand make 2 bowies and the parts would interchange.

Asa much as I like perfect customs like those I am really happy to see handmade users like the ones from Scott Grossman and Muskratman.

 

[2knife]

I guess I see two paths of thought- One taken from Old San Francisco, which was probably descended from earlier European styles, but you can look to these as early "custom" American knives: Samuel Bell, for ex., http://www.sanfranciscoknives.com/makers.html

Then, another stream- such as the Marbles knife co., Webster Marble- making knives for the outdoosman, a design genius, and pre-dated Scagel in many of the ideas, including convex blade, also materials show that William Scagel must have found some inspiration, if you look at the Patent pending 1915 Woodcraft design, it looks like the idea Scagel might have borrowed from to develop his own style, leather, spacer, crown stag butt.

Also, the utilitarian designs, patterns of pocketknives from pre-WW2 companies, based on "useful" ideas.

So, my question, - the resurgence of American "art", in modern custom knives, is there no direct line? back to San Francisco times, mid-1800s? It all died out until when, .. Cronk?

The utilitarian vein went through most manufacturing in knives - Case, Remington, etc... Early pioneers Morseth, Ruana, Draper.. these made no frills knives.

I'm not trying to bend this into a thread about "art", just understand the origins and how it fits together. Anyone, please explain this to me?

Great posts on this thread- Good perspectives.
David

 

[SharpByCoop]

Hi Ken,

As I have been reading this thread with interest, yet little time to post, I have been aware that I own a series of knives from this artisan that, to me and many others, was acclaimed well ahead of his time. (He did win the wooden sword award in 1983 with Bob Lum).

Thanks for the callout and prompting.

Hill hasn't made a knife since 1991. Before 1983 he was making black powder muskets for the collectors. He claims knives were relatively easy.

OK, Im clogging up this thread with my personal interest.

That said, Hill made knives that looked as though they were historical, but, as he claims, he added his own look whether it was authentic or not.

Yes, he was a pioneer. I can find fault in his F&F, but few can match his flair for style.

Coop

 

[jjtjr]

Coop,

Great looking knives. I love Hill Pearce knives.

Jim

 

[Lorien]

Jim, as far as I'm concerned, clog away!

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

I remember you inquiring about Chris Owens. Was he invovled in this? I have a couple of his knives with wire inlayed handles. He would be capable.

Just curious, Joe

Yes, he did a beautiful job on two pieces for me

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

Actually it is a full convex ground blade. The thing is that Bill's convex grind was more subtle than some others as it was done freehand and not on a slack belt or a rotary platen. On the late Moran that I used to own, the convex was much less noticable than on even some knives by very well known student sof Mr.. Moran. Also, the handle on an ST24 is not morticed, It was drilled filed and burned to fit the tang.
As far as Moran production knves, I was under the impression that the Spyderco Featherweights did okay. I still see them in the display case at places like Bill Jacksons and they have gotten a number of good writeups since they were introduced. I know that Hanwei did a couple and Charlton/Damascus USA did one a long time ago.
As for reproducing the curves and proportions of the knife, a lot of people have tried and a number of them not been able to pull it off. I have tried maybe 15 times over the last 3+ years and have gotten remotely close exactly twice. The blade is tough, but the handle is even tougher.

It would be an eay knife to make from a production standpoint. The handle is easily CNC'd. The blade flat ground and then convex sharpened(I am aware of the blade profile of the real deal). The wire inlay would be harder, but looks like Hanwei pulled it off.

My point is that really significant or significantly marketable designs tend to get mass produced. Look at the Speed Safe, Reeve Sebenza, Walker liner lock, et al.

ps-You forgot about the Blackjack Warner-Moran camp knife..

 

[jdm61]

It would be an eay knife to make from a production standpoint. The handle is easily CNC'd. The blade flat ground and then convex sharpened(I am aware of the blade profile of the real deal). The wire inlay would be harder, but looks like Hanwei pulled it off.

My point is that really significant or significantly marketable designs tend to get mass produced. Look at the Speed Safe, Reeve Sebenza, Walker liner lock, et al.

ps-You forgot about the Blackjack Warner-Moran camp knife..

Which is really funny because I own one I thought that they sold all of those that they made. I bough tthat knife because it was as close to a Moran as I could get at the time, but that was the knife that sold me on a couple of more of the original Blackjacks.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I find this to be a preposterous statement. Thats all. There are many, many more significant pieces than the ST-24.

A knife that was rarely made, little copied and never mass produced.

I like the knife enough that I had a really nice copy made but as far as significance, I don't think so.

My purpose for this thread is to learn. So who better to learn from than an expert such as yourself.
So please name examples of these significant designs made by legends of the past. Photos would also be nice.

 

[ROBB]

I think guys like Jim Schmidt and Fred Carter should be brought up a heck of a lot more in threads like this.

I agree Jim Schmidt made knives as good as any made today. He also influenced many makers (Barry Davis, Dellena,etc.). His file work is still amoung the best. Fred Carter,Michael Walker and many others still make knives as well as anyone. I don't think there will ever be a maker as talented as Warenski though Van Barnett & Dellena may get there someday. I can't think of a maker as multi skilled as Warenski. From San Francisco Bowies to Folders to the King Tut Dagger,there was'nt any type of knife project he could'nt do. As for Michael Walker,no one has influenced the folder market like he has. It was'nt just the liner lock. He was the one who brought titanium to the knife world. He also started the anodizing of them. For those people who think he just popularized the liner lock, he had over a dozen other locks.
Another maker who is never mentioned is Royal Hanson. He made knives way ahead of his time. He made inlays before all the CNC'ed stuff thats out know.

 

[Jose Reyes]

In terms of "car inflation" it sure wouldn't be a million $$$$$.

The 67 L-89 was anything but "base". Though as listed as 435HP, many estimated it as much as 550-600HP. It was only available with AC, heater and radio "delete" as the US safety council thought it un-safe for use on the street by the general public. By only allowing it to be produced without the most general amities they figured it would only be purchased for "off road" racing.

As far as clouding our judgment, I agree but "we like what we like".

Now lets get back to old knives.

I think you made a good car analogy, the new Vette is probably better from a production standpoint but that doesn't mean the old one doesn't have good performance. As far as comparing prices it'd have to be the 5K versus 75K. It's a little before my time but I would think both prices were near the ceiling in their respective eras for a sports car. The comparison to the million they fetch nowadays would be akin to the 20K+ knives by older makers like Moran and Scagel sell for.

 

[Chuck Gedraitis Knives]

How about some Schmidt knives since they were mentioned.

 

[Jose Reyes]

The ST-24 could be easily "mass" produced, its a flat ground fixed blade with a mortice tang and convex edge. The Japanese, Chinese and Mike Stewart could make plenty of that knife.

In fact, Moran has had 4 factory collaborations. None very successful. Can you name them?

I was thinking more of the handle shape than the blade itself. I couldn't name any but don't follow the production market. We don't always get along but I can admit that when it comes to the knife world you have an encyclopedia of knowledge compared to the couple of pages out of a dictionary I have...

 

[ROBB]

How about some Schmidt knives since they were mentioned.

Thats what I'm talkin about Chuck

 

[Jose Reyes]

Good post, Ken. I don't think I'd consider your Beilsen any less gun though, and if you consider it was made to shoot you could say it's more gun than one made so fancy you'd be afraid to damage it with actual use.

 

[jdm61]

Good post, Ken. I don't think I'd consider your Beilsen any less gun though, and if you consider it was made to shoot you could say it's more gun than one made so fancy you'd be afraid to damage it with actual use.

Yeah, but how does the $750 Biesen from back then compare to a $20,000 Plain Jane David Miller. Thats what he gets for a basic custom with no engraving!!!!! As my grandfather use to jokingly say, things have gone up since the war Of course, that means that you could probably sell your Biesen for more than $750 today