Custom knives same as semi production?

[KyleyHarris]

For me, CUSTOM means made to my particular specifications (or somebody else's). Even if it's as simple as "make me a knife like this one, but shorten the blade 1/4 inch and add a little more belly."

Next, regarding being a knife maker: if you don't shape and grind your own blades, you're not a knife maker. You may be a knife designer; you may be a knife assembler. But you're certainly NOT a knife MAKER. I don't care how good the end product is; you DIDN'T actually MAKE it YOURSELF. I'm not saying you have to do it entirely by hand using ancient techniques, either. Feel free to use any power tools and machinery you want. But if you don't do it yourself, you're just not a knife maker.

Sorry if that offends anybody, but that's the way it is.

Well, no one can get offended by your opinion unless you try to insist and enforce it on someone else who has equal right to an opinion also. thats why when you buy a knife, and you want a custom knife by your standards as a customer I guess you would find a maker who meets your definition.

But lets extend what you said a little.

>>Feel free to use any power tools and machinery you want.
So.. if I use a file its ok? Tick
So.. if I use a cheap $50 Sander its ok? Tick
So.. If I use a $3000 knife makers grinder its ok? Tick.
So.. If I use a CNC Mill its OK? Tick.
So.. If I use a Digital CNC mill and press the button? Tick.
So.. If I Use a Phone and Send My File to an Employee and Instruct him to press the button for me? Tick..

Sorry, but in all cases we are talking about only an evolution of the quality of tools used by a knifemaker. There can be no distinction using your own criteria except that some knifemakers have a budget, and some do not.

Your words dont offend me at all, i just find them contradictory. Assembly is making it. Designing it is making it.

I would go another step from what you said and say.. If I design the knife, and I assemble it, but all you do is follow my Pattern and cut it out and heat treat it then you are not a KNIFE MAKER, you are just a MANUAL TOOL AND DIE CUTTING MACHINE.

So you can see.. each has an opinion, and each is 100% valid to ourselves. thats why these things can only have merit between the maker, and the customer. the opinion of anyone else is irrelevant.

What is relevant is taking an opinion publically, and attempting to discredit anothers methods.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[LX_Emergency]

Well, no one can get offended by your opinion unless you try to insist and enforce it on someone else who has equal right to an opinion also. thats why when you buy a knife, and you want a custom knife by your standards as a customer I guess you would find a maker who meets your definition.

But lets extend what you said a little.

>>Feel free to use any power tools and machinery you want.
So.. if I use a file its ok? Tick
So.. if I use a cheap $50 Sander its ok? Tick
So.. If I use a $3000 knife makers grinder its ok? Tick.
So.. If I use a CNC Mill its OK? Tick.
So.. If I use a Digital CNC mill and press the button? Tick.
So.. If I Use a Phone and Send My File to an Employee and Instruct him to press the button for me? Tick..

Sorry, but in all cases we are talking about only an evolution of the quality of tools used by a knifemaker. There can be no distinction using your own criteria except that some knifemakers have a budget, and some do not.

Your words dont offend me at all, i just find them contradictory. Assembly is making it. Designing it is making it.

I would go another step from what you said and say.. If I design the knife, and I assemble it, but all you do is follow my Pattern and cut it out and heat treat it then you are not a KNIFE MAKER, you are just a MANUAL TOOL AND DIE CUTTING MACHINE.

That last one is just a no. If you do that you might have a knife making company....but you yourself are not making knives. Therefore you're not a knife maker.

 

[KyleyHarris]

haha.. I was waiting to see who would pick up on that..

the interesting this is.. by your comment you agree that pushing a button, as per the previous one.. makes you a knife maker..

Sorry.. in no logical sense can there be a distinction between Me pressing a button, or the man directly next to me pressing the button.

Again.. how one makes a knife is a choice.. by making it you are a maker.

typically however.. i would agree with your distinction in most situations but logically they are all the same..

If I stand ready at my grinder and find there is no electricity and ask an apprentice to turn on the power.. is he the maker or me? without power there was no grinding done

sounds stupid I know... but this debate kind of is.

 

[LX_Emergency]

Nope that's not the debate at all.

You see, programming a CNC mill is hard and difficult work. It's a lot harder than "pushing a button". Talk to the machinists on this board and they'll tell you.

If you're not involved in the actual proces of making a knife i.e. you're not working the machine, programming the design into it, etc etc you're not making a knife. You're having a knife made.

If you stand at the machine ready to start and there's no power, and then someone else turns on the power you could say that you are BOTH making the knife maybe. But it's not the one turning on the power that makes the knife by definition. All of those involved in the proces of fabrication can claim that they're making the knife. However someone who merely designs and then has made doesn't MAKE the knife.

He designs is, he could be a knife designer, a knife inventor if you must a conceptualisor. But he's not a maker.

Like an architect claiming that he's "built" that building when he never got his hands dirty this is pure arrogance and belitteling of those that he has working to build the house.

 

[KyleyHarris]

Nope that's not the debate at all.


Like an architect claiming that he's "built" that building when he never got his hands dirty this is pure arrogance and belitteling of those that he has working to build the house.

Cant say I've ever heard of an Architect having claimed to have built the building, only design. But if he did get out and assemble the house as well, then would you say he didn't really make it because someone else fabricated the Wood planks, someone else mixed the paint. Someone else manufactured the nails?

If you have a Digital CNC Mill, and the right software, then apart from much things then yes.. with a bit of training and setup you do just press the button. My Brother is just about finishing building a Digital computer controlled 3D routing table, and has a Milling Machine also at his house, and a lathe, and bandsaw, and Jointing machine, and Plank planer. Dont need to talk to others here. I have access to all that equipment. I'll probably use the routing table to preform my handles when its done.. Why not? It makes it easier, it makes it cheaper.. I still had to shape my prototype, and build a CAD file to represent it.. its just an evolution of tools used by me, the maker.. There is no difference between me doing it all by hand as I do now on a belt sander, or putting the handle on the router and having it 98% preshaped..(AS LONG AS THE CUSTOMER KNOWS HOW IT IS DONE)

The only real bad vibe I would get is if someone said they Hand Shaped a handle when they really used a router.. In both cases they are made by the person, only how is different.

 

[KyleyHarris]

You know, this entire discussion has got me to thinking about a trend I have noticed in many internet forums.

I'm a newbie to a lot in the Forum Scene, only a year or 2 reading and browsing.

some trends I have noticed a lot in this type of discussion are:

1:/ normally someone new to making knives raises the issue (or someone who is new to buying or collecting knives with a genuine interest)

2:
I've noticed that people who want to learn to forge knives, and make their own steels and forge a knife tend to say that they are Real knifemakers, and that the Stock Removal Guys are not really, because they are missing the heart and soul of making a knife.

The StockRemoval Guys defend against this argument and validate their right to be called knifemakers.

I've noticed that many Stock Removal people want to diminish the Laser Cutters, or CNC Millers etc and say that they are not really making the knife because there is not as much Hands on.

Of Course, the people using these machines adamantly defend their right to be called knife makers.

The CNC Millers etc say that the robots on the production line are not really knife makers because its all digital and Automated..

The dude on iRobot insisted that he is as sentient as anyother and insists that he is a knifemakers..

The Buyers and sellers of knives want to classify things based on what makes them feel good, or what they think will get them the best return on investment. (as do many knifemakers and companies)

In all these cases the purpose for trying to devalue or diminish the work of another is usually quite an Emotive reason, or one of selfishly trying to increase the perceived worth of how they do the knifemaking that they have chosen.


Its interesting really... but I only ever see this topic raised by people new to the industry who want to make a name for themselves.

The tried and true are just making good product and keeping a good relationship with their customers.. the only people whos opinion actually matters apart from a level of self-esteem on the knifemakers part.


I will happily classify anyone that states they are a knifemaker as a knifemaker.. Even if they goto knifekits and buy full knifekits and glue them together. they are still a knifemaker. they are putting the heart and energy into it to their level of means or skill or dedication. I will also call you a knifemaker if you do everysingle thing from scratch including smelting and heattreat. Even if the knife is useless, cant cut, bad design, ridiculous edge geometry, and cant hold an edge.. you are still a knifemaker.. just a bad one.

it is not a profession like being a doctor that requires a specialised and approved certification to practise.. Please dont anyone quote the ABS, because thats just an american standard.. (a very good one granted) but not a prerequisite. You are a knifemaker because you say you are.. end of story.. its up to individual buyers to choose to accept you at your word and try you out..

Its an interesting topic, but its not important if anyone that doesn't own my work decides for themselves that I (or anyone) is not a "true" knifemaker.

I have a 120 customers without complaints and a 150 knives sold without complaint that speak for themselves. for a part time hobby I am satisfied with that, because I am not trying to diminish or degrade anyother knifemaker hobby, or professional..

i am also a customer of many knifemakers of varying values, so i am not just speaking from one side.

My personal opinion is that anyone who wants to speak about anyones title, or skill, or anything, without a personal experience is just trolling a bit. if you buy someones work and hate it then sure you have a right of review.. but anyone else is just ...


I have what I would call a pretty decent collection of expensive knives in my collection.. I've had $500USD knives that cant barely even slice until I change the geometry or sharpen them.. I dont go around saying they are not knifemakers though.. I say.. what a great knife, just needs a touch up to suit me.


You know.. this is the first time I've ever posted outside of the Busse forum.. probably the most words on BF too.. I guess there is a least something to be gained from this.. Met some interesting and good people with interesting opinions to consider.

 

[jvan]

Kyley, I would like to compliment you on how politely and professionally you have conducted yourself throughout this entire thread.

This has been an interesting read for all of us.

We all have to remember that opinions are like anuses, everybody has one.

 

[EZ Cad Blades]

Kyley, I would like to compliment you on how politely and professionally you have conducted yourself throughout this entire thread.

This has been an interesting read for all of us.

We all have to remember that opinions are like anuses, everybody has one.

X 2! Well said! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Larry

 

[peanuts]

Kyley, I would like to compliment you on how politely and professionally you have conducted yourself throughout this entire thread.

This has been an interesting read for all of us.

We all have to remember that opinions are like anuses, everybody has one.

X 2! Well said! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Larry

..and stop being a public asshat....

...and lay of* the pipe...

*I'm assuming that should be 'off'

Extracts from one of Kyley's slightly less polite and professional posts.

 

[LX_Emergency]

Yeah, I wasn't too impressed with those moments either.

 

[jbombelli]

If I design a knife and have someone else do all the work, the grind, the heat treat and temper, the edge, the polish, attaching the scales, etc... I guess that makes me a knife maker according to KyleyHarris. I don't even have to know the first thing about working steel. I just have to draw out a design and I'm a knife maker. Hell, I guess I don't even really need to do that. I can farm that out, too.

I'm a custom knifemaker. I just have all the design, fabrication, fit and finish done by others. "Evolution of the quality of tools", you know.

It's amazing. You should try it. You don't have to know anything.

 

[gga357]

If the maker does anything in the manufacturing of the knife, to the customer's specification or request, then it is a custom knife. Why are we all having to weigh in on the dictionary meaning of common, not "custom", words??

Agree. I think QB is arguing about "Handmade" and does not realize it.

 

[effer]

I think some people trying to hard to put things into one group or another, to classify things, to associate one specific word with it, but words like "production" and "custom" have too general, vague definitions when applied to a specific product.

In this case we all know the process, we know all the stages of how raw materials turned into a knife, yet we keep arguing about how to classify the end product. The thing is that with such a limited selection of groups, that don't even have very specific descriptions, it is very difficult to associate just one word with the process (of turning raw material into a knife) and the end piece.

I think it isn't right to say that one person is wrong because his word that he associates with the product is different than the one that you have in your mind. In many cases both persons aren't even sure what one word to use.

With constant evolution and technical progress, classifying a knife using just three major categories will be more and more difficult. People already argue about what does "Production" knife means, at what point "custom" turns into a "mid-tech" and "mid-tech" turns into "production". "Mid-tech" itself and "full custom" aren't any easier to define. The is also "handmade", and a question of how much work needs to be done by hand (with what tools) to describe the end piece as a "handmade".

If classification is so important, one should come up with some categories, clearly defined and approved by some Knife Standards Association. One might also clearly define what "customized" knife means and at what point it can be equivalent to "custom" or "mid-tech" etc... In my mind it is a waste of time and effort, because not too many people actually need this. If process of production is known to the consumer and he has the picture in his head, then word association is not really necessary, though in some cases is convenient.

 

[KyleyHarris]

*I'm assuming that should be 'off'

Extracts from one of Kyley's slightly less polite and professional posts.

I have no cause to be polite to a dude who is calling me a BS and pulling stunts like this cross forum rant.

to everyone else I'm polite. quite simple really.

 

[KyleyHarris]

If I design a knife and have someone else do all the work, the grind, the heat treat and temper, the edge, the polish, attaching the scales, etc... I guess that makes me a knife maker according to KyleyHarris. I don't even have to know the first thing about working steel. I just have to draw out a design and I'm a knife maker. Hell, I guess I don't even really need to do that. I can farm that out, too.

I'm a custom knifemaker. I just have all the design, fabrication, fit and finish done by others. "Evolution of the quality of tools", you know.

It's amazing. You should try it. You don't have to know anything.

It sounds bizarre doesnt it.. to say farming out everything but still be a knifemaker. Yet in a legal sense you would be.


I'd make my definition really the most simple. If I sold you something, and I told you what it was, and you didn't agree with my definition and took me to court then the winner is the person with the most accurate definition.

But actually.. I never said you could farm out the design. I said that the design is one of the most important aspects. What I said was that the intellectual property behind the knife and how it works and what goes into it is the key to being a maker of anything. Not to be confused with an Artisan, whos skill is in the actual creation of an item, but not always the making.

But you know.. if you have an idea in your mind for a knife, but no computer skills, and not arms or legs because they got blown off in war, and you want to make a knife, and you describe every thought and detail then I dont care if your fingers do the typing or someone elses do it.. its still your knife that you are making.. the How is irrelevant to the maker. the how is only relevant to the buyer.


EDIT:

I hope that most people here realize that the arguments I have been making near the end of this topic are to demonstrate in point that this is not a topic that can be won because its all opinion and only law, between a buyer and seller would have relevance..

For Example..

A Man Advertises that he is a "Custom Knife Maker" and someone buys his knife then is unhappy when he realises the manufacturing process. He Assumed that Custom had some meaning and looses in court. He Assumed it meant a hand forged knife, not a stock removal one.

a Smarter man would Ask, "So you are a custom knifemaker, (or knifemaker). Can you please tell me how you make the knife?" The buyer is now able to decide to buy or not. Its Buyer beware.. but at the end of the day. the decision of the buyer does not change the identity of the knifemaker.

 

[jvan]

At BladeForums.com there is a sub forum entitled Custom & Handmade Knives they must believe that there is a difference and I do to.

 

[effer]

You see, programming a CNC mill is hard and difficult work. It's a lot harder than "pushing a button". Talk to the machinists on this board and they'll tell you.

It isn't very easy, but it isn't a rocket science either. As matter of fact, in some cases programing CNC mill can be done by the machine itself. 3D scanners already exist. At one point I was researching how to make a 3D copy machine. Common CNC router can be turned into a limited 3D scanner. It isn't too complicated.

If you're not involved in the actual process of making a knife i.e. you're not working the machine, programming the design into it, etc etc you're not making a knife. You're having a knife made.

I understand what you're saying, but it is still not that clear.

Say I own one of those 3D copiers. If I place my original on the table, have it scanned by the machine, and copy/blank made from that scanned design. So Machine made the knife? You might want to say that it is a "production" piece. Who produced it? Well, this is just the blade, that I have to finish, and put the handles on, make a kydex sheath. Is it still made by the machine production knife? Who is the maker?

He designs it, he could be a knife designer, a knife inventor if you must a conceptualisor. But he's not a maker.

If Kyley will take a piece of metal, cut out the knife, grind it just like on his design drawing, heat treat it in some way. So one knife is made fully "custom", handmade "prototype". Maybe it is lacking in some areas (like heat treating), but Kyley is a knife maker now. Right? What about the rest of his knives? Are they still not made by him? If you think so, then maybe you should talk to some very respected knife makers and convince them that all the knives that they sent to CNC company or to Paul Bos for heat treating are not made by them.

Is he not a maker because he skipped the handmade "prototype stage"? What difference does it make to the end buyers, if they will never see the prototype or know how good or bad that prototype was?

You can call these (not prototype) knives "mid-tech" (they are in my mind). Do they become "customs" when a buyer asks to make the handle 1/4" longer or convex the edge, make a bigger choil? What if it suits buyer as it is?

 

[misterjuiceman]

I think some people trying to hard to put things into one group or another, to classify things, to associate one specific word with it, but words like "production" and "custom" have too general, vague definitions when applied to a specific product.

it doesn't seem like it's even necessary anymore. if a Tim Galyean knife is up for sale on a dealer site for $4000, obviously it's the fully custom version, where as the $400 JYD is the mid-tech. for other makers where it is isn't as obvious, it seems like it would be much less confusing if makers just described what was done. they could just say "the entire knife was hand built by me" or "the knife was assembled and handrubbed by me, blades were cut elsewhere"

 

[effer]

it doesn't seem like it's even necessary anymore. if a Tim Galyean knife is up for sale on a dealer site for $4000, obviously it's the fully custom version, where as the $400 JYD is the mid-tech. for other makers where it is isn't as obvious, it seems like it would be much less confusing if makers just described what was done. they could just say "the entire knife was hand built by me" or "the knife was assembled and hand rubbed by me, blades were cut elsewhere"

That's exactly my point. That is what I want to know from the maker. You can call the knife any way you want, I will call it the way I think about it, but it doesn't change the way the knife was made.

 

[jbombelli]

It sounds bizarre doesnt it.. to say farming out everything but still be a knifemaker. Yet in a legal sense you would be.


I'd make my definition really the most simple. If I sold you something, and I told you what it was, and you didn't agree with my definition and took me to court then the winner is the person with the most accurate definition.

But actually.. I never said you could farm out the design. I said that the design is one of the most important aspects. What I said was that the intellectual property behind the knife and how it works and what goes into it is the key to being a maker of anything. Not to be confused with an Artisan, whos skill is in the actual creation of an item, but not always the making.

But you know.. if you have an idea in your mind for a knife, but no computer skills, and not arms or legs because they got blown off in war, and you want to make a knife, and you describe every thought and detail then I dont care if your fingers do the typing or someone elses do it.. its still your knife that you are making.. the How is irrelevant to the maker. the how is only relevant to the buyer.


EDIT:

I hope that most people here realize that the arguments I have been making near the end of this topic are to demonstrate in point that this is not a topic that can be won because its all opinion and only law, between a buyer and seller would have relevance..

For Example..

A Man Advertises that he is a "Custom Knife Maker" and someone buys his knife then is unhappy when he realises the manufacturing process. He Assumed that Custom had some meaning and looses in court. He Assumed it meant a hand forged knife, not a stock removal one.

a Smarter man would Ask, "So you are a custom knifemaker, (or knifemaker). Can you please tell me how you make the knife?" The buyer is now able to decide to buy or not. Its Buyer beware.. but at the end of the day. the decision of the buyer does not change the identity of the knifemaker.

It doesn't sound bizarre. It sounds like intentional misrepresentation.

By your logic, I could call up Jerry Busse, and say "hey... I need 100 knives, for resale, with 8 inch blades, made from 3/16 inch stock, with convex edges, a 3.5 inch sharpened clip, a 5.5 inch ergo-style handle, rounded butt (i.e. flush), no choil, no talon hole, and black canvas micarta scales", and when they arrived, I could post pics and say "I made these. They're for sale, for $1,500 each, shipped."

I think Jerry Busse would have an issue with that. Just as any real knifemaker would.

Only a fraud relies on caveats like "buyer beware" and "this will hold up in court", and "the buyer should have been smarter and investigated the claims of the seller in more depth."

Besides, most knifemakers won't reveal their trade secrets anyway. Try asking Jerry Busse for an in-depth explanation of his manufacturing process and see how much you learn about his heat treat process.