Custom knives same as semi production?

effer said:
OK. Would you say that your CKC Hiker is "a Custom Svord Peasant knife. Made by Svord. What makes it custom is that I modified the blade, replaced the handle..." :)
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Absolutely not.

While I used a peasant knife as stock for my original knife the 2 are nothing alike, as can be seen from the comparison video. This knife is a complete design by me, that Svord Agreed to heat treat for me. Svord also agreed to leave the makers mark on, as a warranty to the steel quality and good advertising for them.

I have known Bryan Baker from Svord for over 10 years. so when I decided to make my own knife, I looked to his steel as a basis because it was a trusted option for me.

I used a peasant knife originally because it was the size and shape roughly that I wanted. Put a Peasant blade next to a hiker and you will see they are not the same size and shape.

I designed the ckc hiker from the ground up. shape, thickness, handles. everything, and Bryan uses his heat treat, and ability to keep the costs low. There is nothing stopping me at all from taking my knife to another heat treater if I so chose.. because its MY knife.

What makes anything custom is being "made-to-order" What makes it hand made by me is that I design it, I GET it cut and treated, and then I put the edge on how I want it, and I cut all the handles from scratch and shape them specifically to my requirements. (not svords or anyone elses) Lets be quite clear. this is not a Svord knife I am finishing up.. This is my knife that svord has kindly agreed to heat treat, and stamp for me.

I could just as easily have had all these made without the Svord Logo and Made up Any BS I like and you'd all be none the wiser if I had a heat treat oven at home or not.. The file and cad is mine. I send it to the laser cutter that offers the best price. I send it to svord because he has the best steel and heat treat and he is a great man. End of Story. :D
 
Tell me guys.. you that live in USA and use Paul Bos to heat treat.. I see quite a few people that get Paul to Stamp on the blade to show that it was heat treated by Paul.. Is he now the maker of Strider knives? no.. he is a recognized heat treater in the industry and Strider was proud for people to know that.. Now take someone who gets his design cut 100 at a time and sends them to Paul, and pays Paul to stamp his logo on pre-heat treat.. Will you now say that because the knifemaker gets Paul to do 100 that its now Pauls Knife? I bet you wouldnt...

Its easy to say something about a person on the otherside of the world.. no comeback.. but I stand behind myself 100% as being open and honest about how my knives are made.

Well in NZ.. Svord is the top dog. he is the man.. I am proud to have his logo on MY knife. I am proud that he was willing to leave the svord logo on at MY request.. rather than send me blank blades. He could have done that and told me not to mention his name incase the knives were sh** and didn't sell.

He didn't because he is a good guy and his steel and heat treat is worthy of being recognized..

but its not his knife, and he is not the knife maker on this item.. he is the man with the damn good steel and damn good heat treat and the ability to let me get my design done at a price that whips ass over grinding them out one by one.
 
KyleyHarris said:
What makes anything custom is being "made-to-order" What makes it hand made by me is that I design it, I GET it cut and treated, and then I put the edge on how I want it, and I cut all the handles from scratch and shape them specifically to my requirements. (not svords or anyone elses) Lets be quite clear. this is not a Svord knife I am finishing up.. This is my knife that svord has kindly agreed to heat treat, and stamp for me.
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I have lost you a bit. This is also applies to Svord Peasant folding knives that you got the blade from, modified it, and attached the handle to? I'm not talking about the full tang hiker. I'm talking about the one you describe in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-DeTNVekBI

Was the blade that you used never finished by Svord and never put on their folding knife?

KyleyHarris said:
Its easy to say something about a person on the otherside of the world.. no comeback.. but I stand behind myself 100% as being open and honest about how my knives are made.
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I think you're doing a great job. Putting the videos on the net about how the knife is made, clears your name for good. Geographical location has nothing to do with it.
It is not your reputation that is being questioned here, it is just a word play.

I also want to extend my apologies to you, Kyley, for putting you on the spot.
 
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effer said:
I have lost you a bit. This is also applies to Svord Peasant folding knives that you got the blade from, modified it, and attached the handle to? I'm not talking about the full tang hiker. I'm talking about the one you describe in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-DeTNVekBI

Was the blade that you used never finished by Svord and never put on their folding knife?



I think you're doing a great job. Putting the videos on the net about how the knife is made, clears your name for good. Geographical location has nothing to do with it.
It is not your reputation that is being questioned here, it is just a word play.

I also want to extend my apologies to you, Kyley, for putting you on the spot.
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Dont need to apologize..

As to those ones.. Those are the 20 that I made before the Full Tang.

No. those were never finished by Svord and were not from completed Peasant knives. I got them direct from the stamp and Ground the choil and shaping etc on an angle grinder, then put the convex on with a belt sander. After attaching the handles I ground the knife to the shape I wanted for the hiker. As you can see, and as I mentioned in the videos.. These blades are actually Seconds.. Nothing wrong with them except for some pitting on the blades in areas that are cosmetic. So I took those seconds at a good price.

After doing 20 of them, I felt it worth the effort to go the extra mile and actually design the blade how I really wanted it. The blade is a slightly different shape and a little leaner, and has everthing the way I wanted it. Then using Svord steel (because in the volume he buys thats the cheapest way to do it, and using the same company as svord to laser cut we get the cheapest pricing) then Bryan heat treats it for me and sends it to me.

My Goal is to make good knives in a way that provides the best to my customers.. not the best to my ego and that of others that say.. Wow, you hand ground them all thats so cool.. I know I can do it.. Everyone who knows me knows I can do it.. Why should I do that and charge everyone double the price with no gain? :) then I can only sell half as many? I am not a lesser knife maker because I do the smart thing.. I'm one that keeps my customers happy.. Customer first.. not ego and peer pressure.

If another knifemaker wants to limit his ability to make the same knife over and over by handgrinding his design over and over then good on him.. but if I was a customer Id want to know why he isn't laser cutting.. If you are a stock removal knife maker and you make the same pattern over and over using an angle grinder then its not for the customers benefit, and it sure doesn't make the knife better quality.. no.. its either not smart, not good business sense, or your doing it because you dont have access to the tools, or could just be to be fashionable and charge a lot more.....

I'm now into my doing my 170th full tang hiker since I brought them out last year.. As a hobbyist knifemaker I think I am doing just fine and dont really need to defend anything I do. But.. when people try and put your reputation and honor on the table, or god forbid my "integrity" as was stated.. well.. swear words will come out :)

Do you know what I think is abominable.. Making a knife, and selling it to some poor SOD at a decent price, even though its the first of its kind, and has never been tested in the slightest. I wonder how many knifemakers actually take their knives and put them to the test before shipping them off to the clients. I tested the durablity of my knife, and the design for over a month before selling one... to make sure that what I was making was of satisfactory quality.. Somepeople think that the customer should do all the testing of a knife...
 
What would the correct definition of a Yellow Horse Buck 110 be?

I usually see them advertised as a Yellow Horse custom and not a Modified Buck, which is right?
 
Do you have a website to order these knives from or any dealers in the USA? What do these sell for?

How about posting up some pictures of the knives themselves both finished and maybe before the handles go on? Other than the videos on youtube are there any pictures posted anywhere?
Thanks.
 
I see it like this : If it's you designed it and had someone else do most of the hard work it is a custom design, not a custom made knife, and you are not the maker, Just the designer.
 
I think the reason for all this "hot" debate is somewhat distorted perception of "custom" being more valuable than other knives. Which, of course, is fallacious concept.

Custom means made to prearranged specifications. It can be even badly made, and of inferior quality and design. Yet, if it fulfills this one criterion, it is a "custom". It doesn't mean it is more valuable, in fact it can be less valuable than not "customised" piece. (E.g., with enough money (lot of them, because it would probably ruin the brand :)), you could persuade Bugatti to install a gazebo on the roof of the Veyron and have stove and concrete floor in the interior. You could persuade them that it should have rudder instead of steering wheel and anchor instead of brakes. You could call it Ultraveyron. It would be unique custom piece. And a piece of junk as well.

Yet, you can see here on board all the time that someone buys a knife (often from a dealer, not even the maker, so s/he has absolutely nothing made to spec on that knife), a knife which is even marked as specific model/pattern and there are literally dozens knives out there that are practically identical, and often differ less than "production knives" made during several years.
Yet, the owner claims it "custom", just because s/he paid a lot for it (personally, I think this is often the ONLY reason for many people to call something "custom", like with aforementioned Chris Reeve products) or because the maker made it by hand (depsite the fact, that there is perfectly good term for such - "handmade").


The conclusion is simple. If something is "custom" or not means practically nothing to everybody apart from the original person requesting the specifications. If and how is something done may show the skill of the maker (or lack of it, for that matter :)).
All that really matters in the end is the quality of the final product.
 
KyleyHarris said:
As to those ones.. Those are the 20 that I made before the Full Tang.

No. those were never finished by Svord and were not from completed Peasant knives. I got them direct from the stamp and Ground the choil and shaping etc on an angle grinder, then put the convex on with a belt sander. After attaching the handles I ground the knife to the shape I wanted for the hiker. As you can see, and as I mentioned in the videos.. These blades are actually Seconds.. Nothing wrong with them except for some pitting on the blades in areas that are cosmetic. So I took those seconds at a good price.
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OK. That makes sense now. I understand you point.
 
QuietBearr - got quiet about page #3 of this thread.

I see things Kyley's way. :thumbup:

I'm cetain some guys here watch the famous OCC motorcycle makers assemble their high dollar "custom" motorcycles?

Almost everything's off the rack, except the design concept and a tweak here and a tweak there.
 
huugh said:
Yet, you can see here on board all the time that someone buys a knife (often from a dealer, not even the maker, so s/he has absolutely nothing made to spec on that knife), a knife which is even marked as specific model/pattern and there are literally dozens knives out there that are practically identical, and often differ less than "production knives" made during several years.
Yet, the owner claims it "custom", just because s/he paid a lot for it (personally, I think this is often the ONLY reason for many people to call something "custom", like with aforementioned Chris Reeve products) or because the maker made it by hand (depsite the fact, that there is perfectly good term for such - "handmade").
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Knife for many people is not just a tool, it is also a collectible, piece of art. You can try to associate some dollar amount with a specific tool based on a given parameters (not easy), but associating dollar amount with art in most cases is close to impossible. Putting a price tag on a rare collectible item is also a difficult task. One can determine how rare it is, but to find out what this piece worth in collectors eyes can be very tricky.
You can say that this knife isn't worth it, but someone else will say that it does. You both will be wrong and right at the same time, because you will be measuring it on different scales.

What if a Maker has a line of 4" knives. He talks to a customer and customer says "I like the design and everything else, but would like to get a knife with 3" blade". Knifemaker does one. It is a "custom" now. Right? Then another guy says "I want to get one with 3" blade too, everything else you do is perfect". So what the second knife is? Custom, semi-custom, production? Maybe the first knife with 3" was a "prototype"?

I agree, using a term "handmade" is in most cases is more appropriate. But how much work is needed to be done by hand to call the knife "handmade"? What tools are "allowed"? What process of heat treating would be "automated" and what will be "handmade"? Etc.

I think any word association can be confusing. It is better to take a "chill pill". No need to try to convince somebody that he should use the word that comes to you mind when you talk about the knife in question. As long and both understand what it really is, what you call it doesn't really matter.

huugh said:
All that really matters in the end is the quality of the final product.
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To you maybe... But for many people it can be different. There is more to it, than just quality. As a piece of art and collectible, knife's beauty and value is in the eyes of beholder.
 
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A Couple of Quotes from the knifemakersguild

The purposes of the Guild were, and continue to be: to promote custom knives and knifemakers, to assist the knifemaker technically, to encourage ethical and professional business conduct, and to sponsor an annual business meeting and knife show.
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From Article 1, Section 4.

The Guild recognizes that the term “Handmade Knives” is difficult to define and subject to varying interpretations, but hold that, at a minimum, it requires that a maker personally grind, forge, or knap the blade, and honestly disclose how each component is produced.
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Now, the guild is again by no means an authority. The create a set of rules, and ask that members adhere to them. This means that if you buy a knife from a Guild member then you have a reasonable understanding of what a guild member will provide you.

This in no way means that anyone outside of the guild is wrong either. The guild is simply creating some structure to help a set of makers communicate and sell to buyers who can have a similar understanding.

Not, being a member does not mean I am required to state my case in the same fashion. They also recognize that this will not automatically mean my definition is wrong.

Its interesting to see that the blurb states they want to promote Custom knives and knifemakers. But the Rules dont say you must make "custom" knives because they clearly understand all requested items are custom. They stricture that you must make a handmade knife. They also understand that this is speculative so they put a few basic rules on it. From the inclusion of Knapping, and the exclusion of Heat Treating, we can see that the knifemakers guild is smart enough to understand that knives are not all made of steel, and all knives dont require heat-treating to be knives.

Now, The specifically do not exclude CNC, or laser cut or milled blades from being considered HandMade. They also do no say you must be the owner of the milling machines.. All they demand is that your customer is fairly and reasonable told how the knife is made.

A Factory Produced knife is cut, ground, and sharpened by a machine with no user input at all. A HandMade knife is any knife where there is a hand in the making, and by their definition some part of the grinding, sharpening process is also done. They expect you to tell your customer what level of handmaking you did.. Eg, Lasercut, ground to finish, or Angle Ground to shape etc. They expect you to say.. Purchased handle scales and shaped, or Made scales from raw materials.. etc etc. They dont allow for an all defining rule.

Are they Right Or Wrong? The Answer is Yes to Both.. They have made some rules so that customers can buy a product with confidence.. This in no way means that if you are not a member of the guild, that you are not a knifemaker, or a maker of handmade knives.. But even they understand that a custom knife cannot be redefined away from simply being a knife ordered by a customer to be made.

Personally I think that their definition is reasonable and the same as what most people expect.


Sorry guys, but I wont post any links or advertise myself and make gain from this thread. I'm not a paying member. You can find me if you want to.
 
jvan said:
What would the correct definition of a Yellow Horse Buck 110 be?

I usually see them advertised as a Yellow Horse custom and not a Modified Buck, which is right?
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The correct answer is what they choose to call it as long as they have informed you of the process. Its your decision to take it or leave it, but not to tell them the description is wrong.

It is a modified buck, thats true. Its also true that its a custom Yellow Horse knife. They choose the one that sounds good for them to sell. Both are factual. And they have told you its a Buck 110 so they are not misleading you at all.
 
If you call a knife a "Custom" that was NOT 100% cut, ground, heat treated and finished, tip to handle by the same person, what do you call one that WAS???

They are obviously two different things.

A knife that is not 100% made by ONE person, is in a different category. Doesn't make it a bad blade, but it is NOT the same.

Considering this is probably the largest knife resource on the Web, why don't the makers here just come up with a nomenclature that you can agree on?

AS AN EXAMPLE

"Customized" means an existing production knife that was modified (Yellowhorse 110)

"Custom" means one that not a production blade and is less than 100% made by the same person.

"Handmade" means 100% made by ONE individual from a blank piece of metal.

Just a suggestion.

Carl-
 
One that can be universally agreed on.

Otherwise you end up with a thread at least 6 pages long and a bunch of BS in 5 of them.

Carl-
 
If I were to take sides, I'm with Kyley on this one.
And as much as i too would like it to be, it is totally not black and white, there are as many shades of grey as there are people on this planet.
My 2 cents:
In my mind a custom knife is made (more or less, designed, ground, finished, doesn't matter to me) by the maker for someone. Maybe the maker just has an inspiration: "Hey I wanna make a knife like this.", in that case the knife is made by the maker for himself.
If it's sold later, it doesn't change the fact.
Production knives are made to be sold to just someone.
Oh and like a few others here, I've gotten in an argument with QuietBear (he trashed on a knife, though a cheap knife, that he hadn't even used one bit) and I noticed pretty fast there's no reasoning with him, pretty much all his arguments were based on something he probably had read somewhere. Just an armchair elitist that's taken it up a notch in my book.:jerkit:
 
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