Custom Order 6 Months Late...Need Advice

Slatts said:
I think some of these custom knifemakers could really benefit from more structured business processes. And I understand how small business work, so don't tell me that they can't afford it. More schedule control, a more change management when things don't go as planned, more responsiveness to customers to know the status. No way can most companies stay in business for long by promising a service/product by a deadline and not delivering until months later - I don't care how good they are. Even if they are that good, a bit more structure would make them better.
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It's a tough world out there for small businesses, and I don't know of a single custom knife-maker that is not a very small "small business." Last I knew, 90% of all new small business telephone customers are disconnected for non-payment within eighteen months of establishment of service. 5% last five years or more.

You want a level of business sophistication that is improbable in the real world. So do I. Desirable -- but improbable. If small businessmen were sophisticated, very, very few would open their "doors" in the first instance.

They live on hope - hope to get business - hope to supply the ordered service or goods - hope to get a good reputation - hope nothing goes wrong that they can control - or cannot. They imagine success that allows them to spend the rest of their working lives running their own business - and 95% don't make it five years -- and typically end up broke and in debt up to their eyeballs.

(And I am still upset when commitments are not met.)
 
imho a lot of problems arise from not quoting accurate delivery times, if its gonna take 2 yrs, say "its gonna be 2 yrs". most folks dont have a problem with the wait imho, as long as they know how long its gonna be, when 6 months go to 12 then 18 folks get antsy, add in lack of communication and then folks really start worrying.

if i was in the knife 'biz i would quote accurate delivery times and answer the phone, probably 99% of problems solved, whats so hard about that??

of course the ones i have dealt with (emerson, crawford, greco, nealy, ralph) all do this already, its the smaller time guys just starting out who have got to learn this imho.
 
Well, I first posted this story Oct 23rd. I finally established contact later in October and was told once again that it would be shipped out first of the week. This would put it arriving to me early November. As of today, nothing has arrived and now 3 messages have been left by me and have not been returned.

Next step is to make one more phone attempt, but this time stating that I want all of my deposit money back. If not, then a certified letter will be sent expressing the same. If that does not work, well, the situation will get a lot nastier from there. Losing the money certainly isn't an option for me.

I am a customer service specialist, so treating people like this is just not in my realm of understanding.
 
I would just add, I haven't worked with a single maker that would even take a deposit. It takes good bookkeeping skills and scrupulous honesty to maintain the equivalent of perhaps hundreds of "escrow" accounts. Most knifemakers don't have the time let alone the skills to manage such a task.

As has been mentioned, most popular makers (and yours sounds like such a maker) can easily sell a knife if you were to flake, so why would they bother with taking a deposit? It sounds suspect to me in the first place.
 
Architect said:
I would just add, I haven't worked with a single maker that would even take a deposit. It takes good bookkeeping skills and scrupulous honesty to maintain the equivalent of perhaps hundreds of "escrow" accounts. Most knifemakers don't have the time let alone the skills to manage such a task.
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I have been asked for a deposit by one maker (10%), and have had one other maker accept my offer to give him a deposit, because I wanted some expensive materials used. I have no problem with deposits as long as they are reasonable. As far as I am concerned, asking for half down, or payment in full in advance is unacceptable.

You are correct that there would be a fair amount of bookkeeping needed to keep track of deposits, but if a maker is taking deposits, he/she darn well better be keeping records.
 
First of all, this guy should never have demanded deposits on new batches of knives until his prior obligations had been fulfilled.

This is a very important point, because failure to adhere to such a policy creates a significant possibility of digging oneself deeper and deeper into a hole that eventually becomes to large to emerge from. Believe me, I have first-hand experience with a maker who did just that. For example, these guys might spend those deposits on new materials, bills, food, etc. and all of a sudden realize they need to take more new deposits to pay for the already paid for knives. Eventually, they can get even farther behind and get so overwhelmed that the last guys in end up losing everything.

Secondly, the complete lack of communication is also entirely unacceptable.

If it was me, I would have demanded a refund quite some time ago.

I think it's very important that you reveal the maker's name now, so other customers may learn about the extent of the problems. I hope you do get your money back, but all the signs indicate that this maker has bit off more than he can chew. I think there's a decent shot you never see you knives or your money. Even if you do, he's still a prick for repeatedly blowing you off. Either way, I'd like to know who he is so I can steer a wide berth.

P.S. - If he fell off a cliff and died or something then I take back the part about him being a prick.
 
In 1997 I ordered my first custom, a Bagwell Belle. Big Bill Bagwell was and is one of the most engaging persons I have ever spoken with on the phone and my guess is he is pretty good about it in person as well.

About 9 months later I got a call telling me the knife would be done inside a few days and he asked me to send him a check.

A week later Bill called me saying that he had a slight buffing wheel accident - the knife had been yanked out of his hands during a momentary slip of concentration and had been casually launched across the room and thru both sides of a five gallon bucket.

Bill's concern was that I needed to know about the couple extra days he wanted to spend with it, making sure it was repolished properly and that it was perfect from his perspective as the maker prior to it going out.

I did not give it a second thought when the knife was a couple days past due, but he felt obligated to call me because as he put it, the price of a knife like that was quite a bit of money to have hanging out of a checkbook without something concrete to show for it.

It was overkill on his part, but I was really impressed and moreso when the knife got here. I have since sold the knife as I found a different path to travel, but I have never forgotten how Mr. Bagwell took care of me.

After six months of being paid nearly $1000, you deserve an answer, period. Send the guy a fed-ex or registered letter asking about the delay, that he get back to you immediately (if it's a phone conversation take notes and date the notes) and make sure you notate the new delivery date, any agreement regarding upgrades or substitutions, and the cost of failure to fulfill.
 
shaldag said:
A number of knifemakers are not too good at estimating time. A number of collectors and customers that I meet are incredible perfectionsists, and expect that any knife that they pay a premium price for should be ABSOLUTELY PERFECT in every detail. We can get away with this because these knifemakers demand the same thing from themselves. And feces happens, sometimes the fit and finish might not be perfect, or the ivory might crack, or the heat treat wasn't perfect. (The latter actually happened--the maker called me and told me that things would take a little longer). I would rather have THE perfect knife than one that has that minor flaw. So it'll take some more time. A couple of phone calls is all it takes to make me happy, and I am the LEAST patient person I know.
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I think shaldag makes a good point. A phone call or an email goes a long way in easing a customer's concerns. I guess thats my "pet peave" with people. I don't understand why they don't return your calls.:mad:
Nobody is that busy!!

Mark T.
 
A written communication was sent today requesting all of my money back...and more will follow. I understand that everyone wants to know the maker, but at this point, I feel it is best left unsaid. The fact that the knife is late is a minor issue to me...it really comes down to all the broken promises that I have been given and the difficulties in getting my calls returned.

Since this is the only wrong doing (at this point), I don't want to throw out a name yet. However, I have had it with this whole situation. The final issue for me is going to come down to me getting my money back immediately. If there is any indication that this is not going to happen quickly, then by all means posting it here will be the nicest thing that I do.

I would like to say that this was the first custom order that I placed and it has left a very bad impression. However, I have since had the opportunity to work with Darrel Ralph, Chuck Gedraitis, Grant and Gavin Hawk, Terry Guinn, and Donnie Barksdale. I would like to thank these makers for being professional, communicative, and timely in all of their dealings with me. If it were not for these good experiences, I would hang up knife collecting for good. Thanks guys!
 
Thanks for the kind words, it can take a lifetime to build a good reputation and one knife deal gone wrong to ruin it. I hope that this works out for you.
Regards,
CHuck
 
I can understand your reluctance to name the maker,but understand you can help prevent possible heartache for another member here by giving a heads-up.By keeping it to yourself you let others fall into the same position.Based on your side of the story,I see no issue with making it public.Good Luck with your refund request.
 
Yah, I'd like to know.

But we already have had posted everything needed to avoid this situation.

Don't pay up front.
 
I would like to see the name of the maker as it may save others the same problems. On the other hand as has happened here before, you must be careful naming a maker.

If it happens to be one that is particulary popular, regardless of how much he has lied to you, you may still have his followers and other makers come in here and dump a pile of bricks on you...some makers are untouchable, even when you are the one getting screwed.
 
For those who would like to know the maker's name try the PM process. That way the maker's name is not put out to the public prematurely, but those heavily into the custom market at least know which makers out there are causing problems or having troubles meeting their committments. I understand the relunctance to name names too early. Negatively dropping a name in a public forum (semi-public) is like dropping a bomb on someone's house. You better dang well be sure you want to kill everyone and everything in that house before you do it.
 
Hello,
My written notice was received and an offer was extended to refund the money right away. The offer was also made to complete and ship the knives. I can't deny that I want them...why else would I have waited so long to get them....so we agreed on a date later this month by which I would either have my knives or have my money back. I am actually happy with this decision. I do not really feel that I had expressed my frustration to him until now, and he now has a fair chance to finish the deal or refund my money.

We had a long talk about what has gone wrong here. There are some unfortunate factors in his life that caused the delay and that is understandable. I explained that the primary frustration was in regard to the repeated promises to ship and not the extended delay. The maker took full responsibility for this and apoloized sincerely. He explained that it was not an effort to deceive me, but more of an issue of losing track of time and forgetting what has been commimted. I beleive this to be the case in this siutation. I have always been under the imperssion that the maker had integrity, but I think there is a lack of organization, followed by a growing and busy schedule that has caught up to him in a very bad way.

We talked about the 50% deposit issue and how it was the general consensus that it was not good practice. I remain on the fence on the issue. These kinves that I have ordered are made of expensive handle and steel materials (Damascus Stainless for example). There is a big investment for the maker to purchase the materials.
At the same time, I agree with all of you that this maker could sell these knives in an instant if I were to flake out and not pay. Again, I remain on the fence, but if I were a maker, I would probably not accept money up front because it will keep you motivated to finish and ship a knife and you aren't putting yourself "in the hole" so to speak.

So, I will report back later in the month how it goes. I want to apologize to those of you asking me to report the maker's name, but I have made a deal to wait another few weeks and I am going to stick by that deal. I can tell you that based on our conversation today this maker is going to continue to require a 50% deposit, so the general consensus here is that most of you will not be working with him for this reason. I also beleive that my letter was a wake up call and I belive that future customers will be treated more carefully.
 
This is your transaction to handle as you see fit. Hopefully you are correct and the maker has learned his lesson, and won't be doing this type of thing in the future.
 
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