Custom Striders Overpriced?!?

[Gator97]

...Watch me apply it to basic economics:

I'd rather have you read the posts more carefully For starters, in the same sentence I specifically noted that whatever I posted didn't apply to Strider knives, since people are buying them by their choice.

Nothing that is bought in enough quantity to perpetuate it's production is overpriced. NOTHING.

Well, that is were I disagree with you and Marcinek. Just the fact that something is bought in enough quantity doesn't mean it is not overpriced. There are things like monopolies, price fixing, simply lack of choice for large group of people, etc... None of that of course ever crossed your mind, because life is perfect and nobody ever does/has done any of it

If they were indeed overpriced then the prices would be coming down, not either staying the same or going up.

If you had a choice. Obviously, with Striders we all do, but to apply that as a generic rule would be wrong.

The market sets the price, not opinions.

Hmm, you see, market isn't the abstract concept, in other words, for a market to set a certain price, N number of people have to have an opinion that X price is worth paying... So, in the end, it's the opinions that set the price, and drive market...

 

[scouter27]

Just the fact that something is bought in enough quantity doesn't mean it is not overpriced. There are things like monopolies, price fixing, simply lack of choice for large group of people, etc... None of that of course ever crossed your mind, because life is perfect and nobody ever does/has done any of it

Yes it does. That is FUNDAMENTALLY what it means. What you are trying to say is that it's not worth what people are paying, which is a matter of opinion. Strider does not exist in a monopolistic economic system. There is no lack of choice, and certainly no price fixing when you can buy a Cold Steel GI Tanto rip off of the Strider BN for 1/10 the price of the real deal. Don't assume because you had a thought that I didn't already dismiss it as ridiculous.

I'd rather have you read the posts more carefully For starters, in the same sentence I specifically noted that whatever I posted didn't apply to Strider knives, since people are buying them by their choice.

Everything I said still applies. Ransom also exists in a "supply and demand" type of system.

 

[dongbeiren]

No they are not, on the contrary, the production striders are.

 

[Gator97]

Yes it does. That is FUNDAMENTALLY what it means. What you are trying to say is that it's not worth what people are paying, which is a matter of opinion.

Doh.... Interesting debate style, arguint or proving a point which I didn't argue, specifically striders, which I said few times don't apply, because people have choice.
However, the case which I was referring to when people do not have any choice, somehow in your mind still applies with the same rules.

Strider does not exist in a monopolistic economic system. There is no lack of choice, and certainly no price fixing when you can buy a ...

Thank you very much, except you repeated exactly what I said about Striders - people are buying them by their choice, and repeating the same in your words proves your point how?
Again, monopolies, price fixing, etc do happen. Therefore, your argument that based on the single fact when any given item sells for a certain price absolutely doesn't mean it isn't overpriced. The price can be manipulated, fixed, forced etc. Now, before you go again about them Striders not being a monopoly, yes, thank you, I know that, it wasn't about Strider(again!), it was about your blanket statement, and just the sale can't be used as a single irrefutable proof.

Everything I said still applies. Ransom also exists in a "supply and demand" type of system.

Whatever you say, I don't feel like banging my head against the "wall of faith"...

 

[Noctis3880]

I think Striders are overpriced in general simply because the fit and finish issues that necessitate sending the knife back seems more prevalent than other $400-$550 knives. However, I do feel they'll likely be able to make good sales simply because of the uniqueness of their knife designs. Saw a tanto SmF up close and I could immediately understand as I was very much tempted to fork over $550 just to wrap my hands around that monster sized knife with very comfortable looking handles. I still feel that having the maker personally make the knife himself isn't worth a $700 price increase if it's mostly made with the exact same materials and blade steel, which is the same reason why I'll never purchase a custom Hinderer knife.

Just the law of diminishing returns I suppose. I just don't feel that a custom hand ground XM-18 will have that much of a leap in fit and finish and/or performance over the production version.

I can swallow buying a CRK Umnumzaan for that tiny extra bit of extreme fit and finish. I simply can't justify spending over $1,000 for just one knife when I could get two customs made to my exact specifications. Which is another thing to bring up, as these customs are already made without the buyer's input on blade grind, blade steel, and handle material. While I probably won't be able to find a lot of makers willing to make my exact knife design from scratch(as you often have to choose from existing designs), you at least have some wiggle room so far as blade length, color, blade steel, and handle material. That to me is the deal breaker in whether to buy a custom or not. Though my R.J. Martin Overkill was so close to perfection that I didn't mind the lack of choice, as I probably would have gotten the exact same thing if I was the one asking to have it made for me. Though I suppose whoever buys those Strider customs felt the same way I did and just let themselves go.

 

[hardheart]

If a person says a knife is overpriced, then it is overpriced. It is irrelevant that someone else paid the asking price. Trying to argue this point is nonsense. One person is saying "the product is overpriced because I and like-minded people feel the asking price is higher than the perceived value, so we did not engage in the transaction", while the other side is saying "the product is properly priced because I and like-minded people feel the asking price is equal to or below the perceived value, so we did engage in the transaction". Both are ad numerum/populum, so one will not trump the other.

It doesn't matter how many people bought the knives, there are billions more that didn't. Not everyone who bought the knives came away from the transaction feeling they got their money's worth, hence they ended up feeling the product was overpriced after padding the numbers for a ridiculous argument. Just the same, you can't cite 6 billion people not owning a Strider because you also don't know how the vast majority of them feel about the product, or if they even know it exists. So raw numbers are meaningless. Moreover, value is not determined by committee, it is each individual consumer working within the confines of their own economic position.

The value of something is not determined by the "market", it is determined by individuals interacting in the market. Every single purchase is an individual action. Perceptions of value can be influenced by overall market activity, but that still comes down to an individual assessment of this activity and their personal opinion on it. When a person who knows about substitute products in the market says something is overpriced, then it is overpriced to them. All someone could say in response is just that there are enough consumers who do not agree with the overpriced assessment to allow the business to continue to sell at whatever the price is at the time. That still does not mean that the product is not overpriced to plenty of others.

 

[scouter27]

Doh.... Interesting debate style, arguint or proving a point which I didn't argue, specifically striders, which I said few times don't apply, because people have choice.
However, the case which I was referring to when people do not have any choice, somehow in your mind still applies with the same rules.

So what you're saying is, your posts don't belong in this thread at all? We are talking about Strider knives, specifically the custom variety. You are talking about everything BUT Strider knives, so it's completely irrelevant to this thread. You're arguing a point not inclusive to this thread.

Maybe if I annotate my statements for you it will help.

Any product [with market conditions similar to a custom Strider knife] that is selling at any price is not overpriced [if the buyer has other options, as is the case with a Strider custom]

better now?


Noctis, I have not read of any issues with F&F on the custom knives, which is what we're talking about here. That doesn't mean they couldn't be out there though I guess. I think people are less forgiving of F&F issues on Striders because of the price, not that the issues are more common among them than on less expensive brands. When you buy a standard SnG or SMF there is a chance that Mick or Duane ground it, by the way. Their shop is way too small for those two to only be churning out customs all day, everyday. They have at least once made a full custom for an individual. They don't do it typically, but this guy is one of their top customers, which goes a long way to getting stuff done. I don't hold that against them, because they are a very big small company. Meaning that they, in my opinion, have a fan base larger than their size would have you believe. That means they don't really have time to make a full custom for everyone that wants one, and no real way to pick and choose who to make them for (with the one notable exception that I have seen).

Things that add expense to the Strider customs are exotic steels, exotic finishes and the desirability of the product.



hardheard, speaking only for myself, I am only arguing the use of the word "overpriced". Communication is a survival skill.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overpriced

Definition of OVERPRICE

transitive verb
: to price too high

"Overpriced" is an objective term. If something is priced too high then it will not sell. Since Strider customs are obviously selling at the asking price, they cannot be overpriced. They may still be too expensive to an individual.

The price of a product is determined by the individuals in the market. However, no single individual has the power to set the price for everyone. Each individual sets a price he or she is willing to pay and that is what determines the price (in a perfect system).

 

[MyChaos71]

Are people buying overpriced items to "buy in" before the prices of those overpriced items plummet? I've been some buying things with the hope their price goes up, at which point I can sell. Duh! I must have the whole thing backwards! I guess that's why I'm broke.

People buy things for different reasons, but that was not the argument.
Our argument was not about Strider anymore, it was about my resentment for the general definition that: " The right price = the price people will be willing to pay"
Sorry, I don’t agree with that definition!
If I sell my "off the shelf" Rat 1 for $ 200, does that make it the right price or does it simply make me a good con-man?
Go read "The Emperor's new clothes" again, it is all about price and value, and the power of Marketing….

 

[Slider817]

I bought a Strider a while back, wasn't so impressed with the quality so I sold it. I I've been eyeing some of the custom offerings, i really like them, especially the Starlingear ones, sure they are pricey, a bit too much for me right now, but If I found one for a decent price that was lightly used, I would be very happy with it.

 

[scouter27]

People buy things for different reasons, but that was not the argument.
Our argument was not about Strider anymore, it was about my resentment for the general definition that: " The right price = the price people will be willing to pay"
Sorry, I don’t agree with that definition!
If I sell my "off the shelf" Rat 1 for $ 200, does that make it the right price or does it simply make me a good con-man?
Go read "The Emperor's new clothes" again, it is all about price and value, and the power of Marketing….

Ok I reviewed The Emperor's new cloths and now I want you to review the definition of "overpriced" because you are still ignoring that word. I don't want to hear any BS about that argument being "just semantics" either. Semantics is what MAKES a language. Without it, all language is just random, pointless grunts and squawks.

You selling one knife to one sucker for more than it's actually worth is not the same as a company selling a LOT of knives to a certain section of the market at a given price. The fact that you even tried to use that as an argument just shows me that you are willing to throw any random factoid out there in order to prove your point, no matter how irrelevant the information is.

If you don't want to pay $1000+ for a custom Strider, then you believe it's too expensive. Since there are many others that will pay that for them, they are not overpriced. What's so hard to get about that?

In any case, I'm done here. I don't think I can make my point any more clear, and obviously some people don't want to see that they are just using the wrong word to describe their feelings. Use language inappropriately all you want now, I'm gone...

 

[spikedog]

Well production units are overpriced. All of mine had to go back for new stop pins due to vertical blade play and lock issues. I have sold them all ans won't get any more.

 

[Striderco]

I dont want to pay more than a grand for a custom strider because I do feel they are too expensive! Now could I buy one sure, i have a g I could blow on one but I just feel like for what you get its way overpriced! Doubling/tripling the price for a knife that is called a "custom" that is essentially a standard strider with some jewelry added just doesnt add up for me!? So call me cheap, or say its out of my price range but its not. I just dont see the value there! I also have found a knife that could prob cut a strider in half! And its def not overpriced! LOL

 

[hardheart]

"Overpriced" is an objective term.

No. I cannot make that any more clear. Economics is a study under humanities for a reason. Value is not assigned solely to utility, to balancing labor to acquire the funds vice labor saved in the purchase and use of the good, to replacement cost, to cost of materials. These knives are blatant Veblen goods, that is not an objective purchasing decision. Either they confer status or they do not. Either that status is realized by the individual, or it is not. That is what makes a folding knife "worth" over a thousand dollars when the same materials, components, and function exist for a tenth of the price. It is valued by the name and images associated, not by raw numbers of how many feet of cardboard it can cut, how many pounds of force the lock can withstand, how many grams of steel are lost in corrosion tests, etc. All of that can be had for less money, less labor. It is not about pure performance, it is about something emotional.

 

[Gator97]

So what you're saying is, your posts don't belong in this thread at all? We are talking about Strider knives, specifically the custom variety. You are talking about everything BUT Strider knives, so it's completely irrelevant to this thread. You're arguing a point not inclusive to this thread.

Uhmm, lemme remind you, it was you and couple others members who went on lecturing folks about economics 101 with blanket(and questionable) statements.

Maybe if I annotate my statements for you it will help.

It won't, they're still incorrect.

"Overpriced" is an objective term. If something is priced too high then it will not sell.

Oversimplification. What if 1 unit sells? What if 10 or 100? What about company's projected sales, gols and so on...

The price of a product is determined by the individuals in the market. However, no single individual has the power to set the price for everyone. Each individual sets a price he or she is willing to pay and that is what determines the price (in a perfect system).

So, according to you only the opinion of the individuals who bought the product is what counts, even if more individuals didn't buy the same product because they thought it was overpriced. There goes all the marketing and economics as a science...

 

[Thomas W]

With all of our time having significant worth...this thread is overpriced.

 

[ohen cepel]

Thomas, well said!

I prefer to not deal with frauds and felons ("strider", not his real name of course) when I can help it anyways so the rest is just talk.

 

[Striderco]

I havent checked out the threads about their claims of being in the special forces and what not but felons? Seriously!? Wow! I never thought this thread would create such a stir. Was just wondering if anyone else thought their customs were rather overpriced!? Wanted an SNG for awhile now but if the allegations against these guys are true I will not buy anymore of their products! There are plenty of other hardworking, honest, talented makers out there!! Suggestions for some rock solid tough folders? Custom or not? RJ Martin seems to come up alot! I ve recently discovered Grayman Knives! Got a Dua from them and already ordered another one!

 

[scouter27]

Mick has a felony conviction. He is upfront about it, and he served his time. He has told his side of the story on his subform on another knife-related forum. I don't have a link, but there is more to his side of the story than you will read anywhere else.

I can tell you this, there is a large population of active duty, reserve and former military personnel that support Mick, Duane and SKI (myself included). I'd go out on a limb and say that SKI and its owners have done more for military personnel than the vast majority of its detractors ever will.

As for Duane's history, I have read the powernetwork.org site about him, and it has circular links as references. They also have a linked PDF that says DoN could not release his info, and a lot of statements of official sources, with nothing to back it up. Maybe I missed something, the site is poorly laid out, and the colors annoy me, which seems to be by design.

If it's not enough that random people on the internet support Mick and Duane, how about Marine Sniper/Legend Chuck Mawhinney? He has at least one design being made by Strider, the CM, and his name on the MT Mod 10 "Sniper", one of which (maybe it's 2) is gifted to a person in each Sniper class at Pendleton, and maybe LeJeune too, I don't really know for sure. An individual that goes by the moniker "Norseman" on some forums was given one.

 

[hardheart]

Mick has a felony conviction. He is upfront about it, and he served his time. He has told his side of the story on his subform on another knife-related forum. I don't have a link, but there is more to his side of the story than you will read anywhere else.

Mick's side of the story is that he did not serve any time and an E-2 with 18 months of service before going AWOL and getting the boot with a bar to re-enlistment and a bad back was offered a trip to Somalia to serve in some spooky capacity. But then his lawyer came out and said that the request for this during trial came from Mick and it was turned down.

I can tell you this, there is a large population of active duty, reserve and former military personnel that support Mick, Duane and SKI (myself included). I'd go out on a limb and say that SKI and its owners have done more for military personnel than the vast majority of its detractors ever will.

SKI didn't do anything for anyone I know, and the one service member I have seen with a Strider over the last eight years got it as a present from his brother. A large population relative to what, and just how large anyway? I've got a population of about 18 thousand here, I can start a poll and go CHU to CHU if you like.

As for Duane's history, I have read the powernetwork.org site about him, and it has circular links as references. They also have a linked PDF that says DoN could not release his info, and a lot of statements of official sources, with nothing to back it up. Maybe I missed something, the site is poorly laid out, and the colors annoy me, which seems to be by design.

You missed the scout sniper forum admin posting that he called in contacts and that no one heard of him and his name appears nowhere. You also missed the name changes and non-combat MOS with no sniper training.

If it's not enough that random people on the internet support Mick and Duane, how about Marine Sniper/Legend Chuck Mawhinney? He has at least one design being made by Strider, the CM, and his name on the MT Mod 10 "Sniper", one of which (maybe it's 2) is gifted to a person in each Sniper class at Pendleton, and maybe LeJeune too, I don't really know for sure. An individual that goes by the moniker "Norseman" on some forums was given one.

Appeal to authority, especially one who is not in a position to verify any of their claims. People have friends, but their qualities and accomplishments are not transitive.

 

[scouter27]

Mick's side of the story is that he did not serve any time and an E-2 with 18 months of service before going AWOL and getting the boot with a bar to re-enlistment and a bad back was offered a trip to Somalia to serve in some spooky capacity. But then his lawyer came out and said that the request for this during trial came from Mick and it was turned down.

That's not the exact story I have read, but it pretty much includes all the negatives. Way to selectively use your resources.

SKI didn't do anything for anyone I know, and the one service member I have seen with a Strider over the last eight years got it as a present from his brother. A large population relative to what, and just how large anyway?

Well if you haven't experienced something in 8 years, it must not exist. I served 4 and did meet people who were gifted Strider knives. Maybe you're just not hanging around with the right people, I don't really know.

I don't know how large. Maybe if you e mail SKI and its distributors they can tell you how many of their knives ship to military bases and APO/FPO addresses. This of course would leave out anyone not having knives shipped to these addresses, either by PO box or because they live off base, but it would give you and idea, if you're really interested.

I've got a population of about 18 thousand here, I can start a poll and go CHU to CHU if you like.

Please do.

You missed the scout sniper forum admin posting that he called in contacts and that no one heard of him and his name appears nowhere. You also missed the name changes and non-combat MOS with no sniper training.

I didn't miss that. It had no documentation other than a forum admin's word. I saw the name changes (and don't care), but where did you see his MOS?

Appeal to authority, especially one who is not in a position to verify any of their claims. People have friends, but their qualities and accomplishments are not transitive.

Didn't you just use an "appeal to authority" just above here? I don't see how Mr Mawhinney is in any worse of a position than an admin on the Scout/Sniper forum in regard to getting information about a former Scout/Sniper


None of this matters, you seem to have SKI and its owners all figured out. Nothing I can do to change your mind, no matter what I try. I hope you always enjoy non-Strider knives. Leaves more for me.