customs which offer performance superior to productions

[GRMike]

I would venture to add that I think that a lot of the people here don't know or care about the answers to those questions

No argument from me. But one thing I've noticed in hanging around this site for a couple of years is that Cliff Stamp cares a lot about those questions. So do some of the rest of us. Something my career as a researcher (in a completely different field) has taught me is that people will form opinions based on subjective impressions that often don't stand up to objective testing. It's the default human position, in fact. So I for one appreciate Cliff's attempt to be objective about knives.

Mike

 

[Boink]

My informal testing amounts to this: If I bought it, it's the greatest knife, bar none.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It's a thin hollow grind.

Yeah, if you hollow out an Opinel the cutting performance would improve. Already though it is so high that often you are talking about very small changes, I have two blades of those styles and the performance difference is difficult to measure.

Opinels, sharpened well, have a full convex grind with an edge of about five degrees, they actually compare very well to Alvin's blades which have full hollow grinds, Alvin's are just easier to sharpen, and of course stay sharp much longer.

It holds an edge longer and cuts materials easier.

I have used a large Bowie by Carter, he grinds his edges very thin, so stock they would outcut a Deerhunter on shallow cutting. The bowie I had would even do so on some materials.

On thicker and more binding materials however the Deerhunter would pull ahead, and of course all you would need to do is change the angle on the Deerhunter to raise its cutting ability.

They come in a variety of steels, all the way up to near full hard D2 so edge holding can be very high, the AUS-6 Deerhunters ones are fairly low end though for edge retention.

... people will form opinions based on subjective impressions that often don't stand up to objective testing.

If you watch the forums, you can see ideas propogate through people who will present them as if they were based on work they did when often times it is just hearing someone else, they often didn't do it either.

I have at times in researching a knife encountered dozens of opinions which tend to let you believe something, only to push further and watch all of them collapse and be left with no actual use at all.

You will see them fall apart when you start to get specific because they are left with either making something up, at which point they will start to contradict each other, or they just get very vague.

...if you want to discuss the various medium, then there will be certain advantages to thicker blades.

Yes, some times you need thickness to cause the material to split, or give you the strength to apply more force, or simply allow you to do more work.

For example I have two blades from Alvin in similar stock, one has a full convex grind, the other hollow.

The hollow one cuts better, but only slightly, and the convex one can do a lot of cutting that I would not do with the hollow as the edge has no support.

[geometry]

I don't know and I don't care ...

Which is why there is so much hype in the industry. If customer were more aware they would realize that often times much of what is claimed is nonsense such as promoting cutting ability based on steel type.

As well equal or higher performance could be obtained with much cheaper knives if selected accordingly, and better performance with a tuned production vs stock custom, often many times to one.

I recently had a AISI 420 blade outcut and stay sharper alongside a high end S30V one, simply because I adjusted the geometry of the 420 blade to better suit the task.

This comes from caring about geometry specs, among other things.

-Cliff

 

[3Guardsmen]

I recently had a AISI 420 blade outcut and stay sharper alongside a high end S30V one, simply because I adjusted the geometry of the 420 blade to better suit the task.

-Cliff

Are you speaking of the CRKT Point Guard, Cliff?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Yeah, I was cutting used carpet, the Point Guard had been reprofied to a full height grind which left the edge < 0.005" thick, it was a microbevel you could not see. Comparing this to the stock Paramilitary, the Point Guard cut through the carpet smoother, required less force, and after 254 cuts was similar in sharpness cutting 1/4" poly, and rubber tubing.

Now the steel on the Point Guard wore much faster, in fact after the cutting the microbevel on the Point Guard had actually worn right off completely. The bevel was still on the Paramilitary, no surprise as it has much higher wear resistance. However since the edge right behind the micro-bevel on the Point Guard was ~6 degrees per side, it continued to cut well even with the micro-bevel ground right off.

Of course if I regound the Paramilitary with a similar profile it would move ahead of the Point Guard.

-Cliff

 

[db]

Yeah, a almost full hard D2 AG Deerhunter would be a real good edge holder and cutter. I beleive my AG Bird and trout, small Deerhunter. is Aus 8. Quick story on steel types and edge holding. I had alot of cardboard to cut up so I grabbed a 420V/S90V small fixed blade I had. We all know S90V is a killer edge holder right? Well, I also had my Opinel #6 in my pocket. Jump to the end of this story the Opinel cut 3 times as much cardboard as the small fixed S90V blade did. They both needed a good sharpening and how long you think it took to resharpen that S90V? Hint I don't want to dull it alot ever again.

 

[crossada]

i have a kellam puuko from their kp line? made by olavi kemp...sp? it is a pretty fantastic woodsman knife in my opinion. truly a handmade knife as well

 

[the possum]

Hey there, Cliff.

When it comes to pure slicing ability, I completely agree that geometry will play a far bigger role than who's name is stamped on the tang. And that naturally, better steel and heat treatment will only show itself if compared to identical geometry.

Comparing handmades and factory blades on a per dollar basis, though... That's kinda tricky. Don't you agree? I mean, how many handmade knives have you ever seen for less than ten bucks? In this regard, the factories will win every time. This is especially true if we compare handmades to factory knives that have been modified to better suit the task at hand. I've been carrying some cheap multi-blade folders, since I haven't got any money for new toys. My solution was to reprofile the blades, and this has been enough to get me by. The smaller blades are now fully flat ground from spine to edge, with a microbevel. The bigger blades wear wide convex edges, for more support on tougher jobs. Some edges are finely polished; others are left rough and agressive. I have a beautiful Warren Osborn folder that's fully hollow ground, with an edge not much thicker than a business card. I'm sure it would cut great, but haven't put it to much work because of its value. To me, if we want to give the handmades their true credit, we'll have to include all those other design factors besides edge geometry.

Now, I know we may be straying a bit here, since you seem more interested in folders and small fixed knives, but really big knives (and swords) are one area where I feel handmades really reign supreme. I haven't gotten to compare my big Bowie to factory knives, because they simply aren't made anything like what I need. A few semi-custom shops make knives close, but would still need extensive modification. The first blade I used (because it was the biggest I owned at the time) was low quality. I reground it, which helped, but it still can't compare to the performance I get now. This is in every respect- cutting efficiency (the low grade steel couldn't be sharpened thin, as it was too weak), grind thickness, dynamic balance, handle comfort, ad nauseum. If you are interested in hearing more about this, I'm willing to share.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...how long you think it took to resharpen that S90V?

Ten seconds? I can dig a hole with a 10V blade and sharpen it back to a razor in less than five minutes just with hand stones and a Sharpmaker.

To me, if we want to give the handmades their true credit, we'll have to include all those other design factors besides edge geometry.

Yes there are lots of reasons to pay more, cosmetics being one, just having a hand made by itself is enough for some.

...really big knives (and swords) are one area where I feel handmades really reign supreme.

Yeah I have tried a number of large production brush knives and they all have pretty large problems. The thing is the demands on such knives are pretty high and you really have to get it right or the knife can just explode.

A few semi-custom shops make knives close, but would still need extensive modification.

Yeah again, redo the edge, fix the handle, and ideally alter the steel.

If you are interested in hearing more about this, I'm willing to share.

Always. Did you ever get to try out a bainite bowie you mentioned awhile back?

-Cliff

 

[WYK]

I just had a couple of bars of 52100 forged and rolled. I intend to use them for Bowies. In your experience, how does 52100 compare to other knife steels? Is there a manufacturer that even uses it?

WYK

 

[Cliff Stamp]

QUOTE=WYK]...52100 compare to other knife steels?[/quote]
52100 is a solid working steel which will offer quality edge retention and toughness, you can easily exceed it in either areas in other steels, 5160 is tougher, D2 will give better edge retention (for most work). But as an all around performance it holds solid over a wide range of work.

Is there a manufacturer that even uses it?

Swamp Rat uses a varient, and there are various convex ground production 52100 knives similarin style to Blackjack.

-Cliff

 

[the possum]

Yeah I have tried a number of large production brush knives and they all have pretty large problems. The thing is the demands on such knives are pretty high and you really have to get it right or the knife can just explode. -Cliff

Agreed. You can whittle sticks with just about any edged tool, but when you need a couple feet of steel for tough jobs, the design and quality differences are magnified exponentially.

Did you ever get to try out a bainite bowie you mentioned awhile back? -Cliff

Well, yes and no. I did make my current bowie from 5160, and Joe Walters heat treat it to form bainite, but unfortunately I got a bad piece of steel from the end of a pour or something. So, my observations aren't really valid about it. Even with the inconsistent steel though, it's held up a lot better than my previous ATS-34 knife. I went into more detail in this thread. There is also a link to my coon hunting page in that thread, where I often discuss performance issues for my circumstances.

I think with a blade this big, dynamic balance and handling issues are really important. So is a handle that won't let the blade fly out of your grasp. This is one area where I really disagree with the current trend of making big knives with slick handles and no pommel. (i.e., the "Southwestern Bowie".) I also believe too many makers grind their tips too thin. If you look closely at the last picture in the thread I linked, you can see the reflection on the sharpened false edge. Note how the edge bevel gets wider towards the tip. I made the primary grind progressively steeper towards the tip, for more support, until the edge bevel becomes the primary grind. This makes the difference between losing a fraction of a milimeter, instead of a quarter inch of steel when the tip strikes something hard.

 

[Quiet Storm]

"You can find the same grind on a $10 Mora, and an Opinel will outcut an Emerson readily."

-Cliff


Here we go again... You don't really believe that do you?

None of the Emersons I own, have owned, handled and plan on buying were even supposed to outcut an Opinel. Seems like you know zilch about blade geometry.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

This is one area where I really disagree with the current trend of making big knives with slick handles and no pommel.

I never understood that either, with a firm grip, no fatigue, everything clean, you can usually hold on to anything, however get a bit tired, get a bit sweaty, etc. .

I also believe too many makers grind their tips too thin.

For the most part a lot of knives never consider anything but perfect use, this is rarely the case in life however.

None of the Emersons I own, have owned, handled and plan on buying were even supposed to outcut an Opinel.

Never said anything to the contrary. However it was argued by someone else :

imho nothing is sharper than the emerson zero bevel grind, nothing, a zero bevel grind CQC8 is a slicer for sure.

-Cliff

 

[Mr.BadExample]

I have a 1/8" thick convex ground nessmuk by Dale Chudzinski that outcuts everything else I own.
I'd love to see a test of Burt Foster's "Blue Collar Camp" knife. I have one on order, if someone else has one I'd love to see a test. On Burt's site there's a cutting test of a camp knife, it's impressive.
I don't know about holding up vs. Busse's warranty, but ABS J.S. test knives have to bend 90 degrees and not break. So someone out there must make knives that will take a beating.

 

[Quiet Storm]

Never said anything to the contrary. However it was argued by someone else :

My post was directed at sharpstick.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have a 1/8" thick convex ground nessmuk by Dale Chudzinski that outcuts everything else I own.

Opinels are thinner with a full convex grind.

-Cliff

 

[knifetester]

I have a 1/8" thick convex ground nessmuk by Dale Chudzinski that outcuts everything else I own.

Chudzinski does make an outstanding knife for people that like traditional styling. They are highly sought after by re-enactors, especially mountain men types. Oddly (maybe thankfully since his prices are real low for hand forged work) his work is largely unknown outside of history buffs, and is not discussed as often in knife circles. For re-enactors that really use their knives, and want a real working tool and not just a show piece, they are considered THE premium knife.

Here is his website:
http://chudzinski.tripod.com/index.html

I have a couple of Chudzinski knives, a kitchen paring knife and a mini-Nessmuk. Both knives are 1/16" thick. The paring knife is 01 and the Mini in 15n20, with the mini being a convex grind (actually not a grind since I think it is forged in, but you know what I mean) and the paring knife a forged flat with an edge bevel. Both cut very, very well. Maybe not as well as a very well sharpened Opinel or a thin fillet knife, but very close.

His Wharncliffe and utility knives look really great, I just don't have the money to buy all the knives I would like. I would buy another knife from him without hesitation.

I spoke to him when I ordered my knives, interesting fellow. From talking to him, he seems like a knife user and lover who makes knives. I called him to ask about his heat treat and such. He described how he goes about selecting his heat treat for different steels, and how much is trial and error with many pieces of steel being treated and broken to examine grain structure and different characterstics. He said he does treat his steels softer than many modern custom shops do, becuase he wants to emphasize the toughness of the steels he works with, as well as ease of field sharpening. I was a bit puzzled about the field sharpening, since I use a DMT diamond diafold in the field, or an ez-lap, but he explain that most of his customers are traditionalist, history buffs, re-enactors and the like so he makes sure they can sharpen there knives with river stones and other traditional means since those are all that are allowed at some events and gatherings. He said this philosphy seems to appeal to the wilderness skills folks too.

I have had no edge retention issues with his knives( better than a SAK or Opinel for example), and they do sharpen very easily.

He was really open about what should be expected of his knives, he basically told me he makes knives only intended for cutting "normal" materials, like leather, meat, rope and such. He said he likes his edges really thin, and that if you use them to hack through knots, try to cut harder metals or exert lateral pressure on the edges you will have problems.

I asked about his warranty, he said it was pretty simple, if he was alive and you have a problem with one of his knives, he will make it right. He added that if I did anything really stupid (I think his example was prying out a stuck engine block and break the knife) there would probably be a charge for repairing the blade. Anyways, he seemed like a very straight forward, no BS kinda guy and very down to earth. He seems to care about his customers being happy, his wait list was like 6 months and he said the vast majority of his customers are repeat customers which tells me a lot about a maker. (I was a repeat customer myself BTW, I bought the Mini-Nessmuk, then the paring knife).

He said he only works with Carbon steels (1084, 1095, 01, L6 and 15n20 were what he offered me) and natural handle and sheath materials. He would not make a knife thicker than 1/8" and usually works in 3/32" 15n20, with smaller blades being 1/16". That may have changed, but it was his policy when I talked to him.

His knives are really great looking, I love the woods he uses in his handles. Functional art almost. He is like an old world craftsman born a century to late, kinda like Dan Winkler.

It was a while ago that I talked to him, but he said he was a carpenter by trade (finish and cabinet I think) and was very much into japanese wood working tools and had a really nice collection of eastern hammers, saws and chisels.

Opinels are thinner with a full convex grind.

BTW, one thing that stuck out in my mind about our conversation is that when I asked him what kind of pocket knife he carries, he told me he was carrying an olivewood handle Opinel that was a gift from a friend!!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

....he wants to emphasize the toughness of the steels he works with, as well as ease of field sharpening.

There is something to be said about softer edges for really hard work. I have been using a couple of Randalls lately and they are so soft you can file them readily, it does make them really easy to repair with a file.

I asked about his warranty, he said it was pretty simple, if he was alive and you have a problem with one of his knives, he will make it right. He added that if I did anything really stupid (I think his example was prying out a stuck engine block and break the knife) there would probably be a charge for repairing the blade.

Most warrenty issues happen when the promotion for knives is extreme and vague. All the custom makers I deal with have the same general policy, if you have a problem they will fix it.

Just be clear about what your knives are meant to do, and of course make sure they can do it.

-Cliff

 

[knifetester]

There is something to be said about softer edges for really hard work. I have been using a couple of Randalls lately and they are so soft you can file them readily, it does make them really easy to repair with a file.

Yes, it is actually quite suprising to me. Since my usual preference is to thin M2 blades (Old Gerbers), very hard and fairly heavily alloyed, the effectiveness of some softer simpler steels suprises me. [Edited to add: Note that I am not talking about real soft, like Martindale or Tramontina machetes (high 40-low fifty RC), but rather in the area that Opinel, SAK, Mora 2K and the Chudzinski knives seem to fall, i.e. ~56-58 RC]

I first noticed this when working with knives like SAKS, Opinels and the Mora 2K, though fairly soft they held their edges through a suprising amounts of cutting.

While some of the edge retention is a direct result of the cutting geometery, on some cutting chores softer steels do not do as bad as I had thought they would.

Take carpet cutting, very abbrasive right? But I have used Mora knives and out cut much harder knives. I think part of that was from harder blades micro-chipping on inclusions (you know how filty used carpet can be), whereas the softer steels did not chip and suprisingly did not impact noticeably.

Having glanced of bones a number of times, counters, pots, plates, etc, I think the toughness of the slightly softer steel and ease of sharpening can be an asset under certain situations.

Cliff,
Have you used any of Chudzinski's knives? If so, which models and steels? Did you go with standard Heat Treat or request a harder HT?

I am interested on your thoughts on his heat treat, since it is counter to the approach taken by Swaim, Johnson, et al but still effective. Not in edge holding certainly, but in regards to overall performance. While his grinds are not Alvin thin, they have a wider scope of work and are still more acute than is seen on many baldes these days. I have read several reviews [on other forums and on the web] and all seem very positive in regards to cutting performance and working with the maker.

Thanks,
KT