DAMASCUS – Functional Knife Blade or Art?

Properly made and heat treated damascus will perform as good as
properly forged and heat treated mono steels. Damascus can perform, but it's
made for beauty not added performance.

Type of steels used, number and temp of welding heats, quality of welds,
thermal cycles after welding/forging and heat treat are most important.
Any of these processes will make or break the final product.

Some high performance mixes are; W2/15N20, 1084/15N20 and 01/L6.

Not all damascus is created equal.
 
Properly made and heat treated damascus will perform as good as
properly forged and heat treated mono steels. Damascus can perform, but it's
made for beauty not added performance.

.........
Not all damascus is created equal.

Perhaps a little historical perspective is in order......

The Indian and Indonesian weapons produced from the steel first appeared around 300 BC. The Chinese were next to adapt steel around 220 AD... Along with their original methods of forging steel, the Chinese had also adopted the production methods of creating Wootz steel, an idea imported from India to China by the 5th century AD. This early steel-making method employed the use of a wind furnace, blown by the monsoon winds and produced almost pure steel. Also known as Damascus steel, wootz is famous for its durability and ability to hold an edge. It was originally created from a number of different materials including various trace elements. It was essentially a complicated alloy with iron as its main component.

Recent studies have suggested that carbon nanotubes were included in its structure, which might explain some of its legendary qualities, though given the technology available at that time, they were produced by chance rather than by design. The ancient Sinhalese (Sri Lankans) managed to extract a ton of steel for every 2 tons of soil, a remarkable feat at the time. One such furnace exists in Samanalawewa (Sri Lanka) and archaeologists were able to extract steel as the ancients did 2200 years ago.

Crucible steel was produced in Merv by 9th to 10th century AD.

The Japanese adapted the method of Chinese steel production around the 11th century.

So let's get it straight.....we always talk about history in knives....the first really good weapons made of steel were made of damascus steel, otherwise it was generally wrought iron, which is not as good for an edged weapon. It wasn't for the pretty patterns, although once the ancients got a good grasp of the technology, they started getting fancy with pattern development, including etching. The ancient recipe in Indonesia for blade etching includes arsenic and lemon juice, as an example.

Much of the above information came from Wikipedia, and I personally don't agree with calling damascus "wootz", as the methods of production have altered significantly, to the point that the distinction must be made, but for historical purposes relevant to this discussion, the terminology should be used as extant.

David, you are a teacher, last I heard......some self-education might be considered before flaunting your ignorance again....it makes it hard to take your statements, or even your questions seriously.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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STeven, very good info and I agree 100%.

My above post was concerning modern hand made knives.

Edit to add; Steven brings up a very good bit of history above.
Pattern welded steel and Wootz were king and to some extent still are today.
 
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Sorry if i came across in an obnoxious way.. I was being a little obnoxious, making a generalization. "flaunting my ignorance".

I would be interested in any test results- cutting hemp rope, comparisons, for example. If anyone has that info. Or any hard science, references..
David
 
Sorry if i came across in an obnoxious way.. I was being a little obnoxious, making a generalization. "flaunting my ignorance".

I would be interested in any test results- cutting hemp rope, comparisons, for example. If anyone has that info. Or any hard science, references..
David

SELF-EDUCATION, David....call Kevin Cashen, or Ed Schempp on the telephone, or e-mail them....they will help you......stop trying to get the information without doing any work of your own...it is embarassing.:(

STeven Garsson
 
Part of the reason i didn't want to ad this Thread- because i had preconceived notions about damascus. Which i figured it wouldnt hurt to admit.,

If these change, I am willing to admit I'm igorant and wrong, but someone must present some kind of evidence for
damascus besides the art of it. Historical, i see there is great reason for it. What about now- it looks like a sidewalk art show. Why? why important to modern knives - imagination creativity? i get that. But, how better? If better.
David
 
Part of the reason i didn't want to ad this Thread- because i had preconceived notions about damascus. Which i figured it wouldnt hurt to admit.,

If these change, I am willing to admit I'm igorant and wrong, but someone must present some kind of evidence for
damascus besides the art of it. Historical, i see there is great reason for it. What about now- it looks like a sidewalk art show.
Why? why important to modern knives - imagination creativity? i get that. But, how better? If better.
David

Let me remove any doubt....you are ignorant and wrong....it will not take scientific facts to prove this.

The problem with prejudice is making a decision before becoming aware of the relevant facts of a case or event.

It is up to you to reverse your prejudice, not the knife community...because you find no value in damascus.

STeven Garsson
 
david the point of damascus is mo money. I have never seen a damascus that I like.

email Lovett for some good eye opening answers.
 
david the point of damascus is mo money. I have never seen a damascus that I like.

email Lovett for some good eye opening answers.

severed, have you ever seen ANYTHING that you liked? :confused:

I didn't know Mike Lovett was an authority on damascus?
How often does he or has he forged damascus?
 
severed, have you ever seen ANYTHING that you liked? :confused:

I didn't know Mike Lovett was an authority on damascus?
How often does he or has he forged damascus?


I have seen many that I like Kevin. for example I really like the laminate stuff BF is doing.

I am not sure if Lovett has forged damascus but I do think he has forged blades before. He is a wealth of knowledge on performance of steels.
 
Way back, Kevin Jones said:

Unless I'm mistaken, the very early wootz damascus was actually the most durable and fictional steel of the day at a time when these attributes could mean life or death for the sword bearer in battle. The wootz steel (ingots) were actually produced in India then sent to the sword makers of Damascus Syria who then forged these fine swords. So the first damascus was actually utilized for it's functionality not it's beauty.

That's one reason I had this made. It cuts like crazy. And I wanted to see how a wootz or wootz-like steel looks and works. So for me looks and use (although this one is a gift for a friend). I have another on the way for me, but a totally different style.

Dino in Reno
 

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I have seen many that I like Kevin. for example I really like the laminate stuff BF is doing.

I am not sure if Lovett has forged damascus but I do think he has forged blades before. He is a wealth of knowledge on performance of steels.

Is "BF" Bill Fiorini?

Sorry Severed, but you probably don't want to get too far into this one, because you obviously don't have the depth of knowledge in order to make it a discussion of equals.

This level of ignorance is very frustrating. Yes, Mike Lovett knows a lot about metallurgy, and he happens to be a buddy of mine, so I am not going to poo-poo on him.

That said, he does not have the direct level of experience with making and testing his own damascus like that of Kevin Cashen, Howard Clark, Don Fogg, Tim Hancock, Darryl Meier, Al Pendray or Ed Schempp. These are all makers that have formulated performance damascus and tested it against their own carbon steel blades, and made observations.

As far as basic performance criteria, the damascus was noted to meet or exceed hoped-for results...the only advantages that I have heard were of the micro-serration qualities inherent to the pattern.

This is not however why these makers create damascus...they do so for the joy of manipulating the patterns and creating knives out of the material....it is the same reason that MOST knifemakers do what they do....otherwise, those that could would probably work a "real" job with paid vacations and health care benefits.

The statement that it is just about money is insulting to the utmost degree, and off the charts as far as wrong, based upon my PERSONAL knowledge of many of these makers.

For Devin Thomas, it is probably about money...that is what he does, and only what he does.

STeven Garsson
 
Is "BF" Bill Fiorini?

Sorry Severed, but you probably don't want to get too far into this one, because you obviously don't have the depth of knowledge in order to make it a discussion of equals.

This level of ignorance is very frustrating. Yes, Mike Lovett knows a lot about metallurgy, and he happens to be a buddy of mine, so I am not going to poo-poo on him.

That said, he does not have the direct level of experience with making and testing his own damascus like that of Kevin Cashen, Howard Clark, Don Fogg, Tim Hancock, Darryl Meier, Al Pendray or Ed Schempp. These are all makers that have formulated performance damascus and tested it against their own carbon steel blades, and made observations.

As far as basic performance criteria, the damascus was noted to meet or exceed hoped-for results...the only advantages that I have heard were of the micro-serration qualities inherent to the pattern.

This is not however why these makers create damascus...they do so for the joy of manipulating the patterns and creating knives out of the material....it is the same reason that MOST knifemakers do what they do....otherwise, those that could would probably work a "real" job with paid vacations and health care benefits.

The statement that it is just about money is insulting to the utmost degree, and off the charts as far as wrong, based upon my PERSONAL knowledge of many of these makers.

For Devin Thomas, it is probably about money...that is what he does, and only what he does.

STeven Garsson

Burt Foster, the mo money comment was a sarcastic joke. Sorry it did not come across. I mean it in no serious way. guess I should put one of these, :p.

You are correct, your knowledge does exceed mine in this arena. But not Crucibles knowledge, and then there is Cliff Stamp. I go from what I read and knowledge I gain from talking to some makers and steel mfg's. Companies that have spent big money in researching and developing this stuff. It just seems that most damascus made wouldnt even keep up with most of the cpm stuff.:D
 
Burt Foster, the mo money comment was a sarcastic joke. Sorry it did not come across. I mean it in no serious way. guess I should put one of these, :p.

You are correct, your knowledge does exceed mine in this arena. But not Crucibles knowledge, and then there is Cliff Stamp. I go from what I read and knowledge I gain from talking to some makers and steel mfg's. Companies that have spent big money in researching and developing this stuff. It just seems that most damascus made wouldnt even keep up with most of the cpm stuff.:D

1. It would certainly help to use emoticons to indicate sarcasm in this case...otherwise, I would probably have left it alone....but David isn't being sarcastic, he believes that damascus is pretty but has little performance value...

2. Steels that are created for performance first offer just that...performance..but under specific criteria that may obviate the "art" aspect of it....for instance, I have not yet seen a CPM steel with a hamon....and the BEST hamon from western bladesmiths on western style blades I have seen was on W2, which is no longer widely available.

There is a seat for every ass at the table.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
OK, giving it a rest.... interested in these microserrations- anyone have some flakes of info. ?
David
 
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I have been putting one damascus Master Smith damascus knife to a LOT of use lately and it has performed superbly:

orig.jpg


This had been Burt Foster's personal user, so clearly the maker did not see damascus as a performance detriment.

no disrespect meant to any who have posted some seriously well done eye candy , but the above knife is a stand out in my mind. Anytime I think of a damascus knife , this image will be the first one I see. Thanks for sharing.

Just stopping to think about all the work and research these makers are putting into making their own Damascus , and making it perform as well as it looks , my hat is off to all of them.
 
..but before i go, Someone please offer (or reference) a side-by-side performance evaluation to support the equality/superiority of damascus vs. carbon steels. I would sleep better seeing this.
David
 
I've read through this thread, and can possibly offer some insight on a few of the questions/comments.
Steven is correct that the reason many of us create damascus is because we enjoy forging and creating. Its a natural evolution. After you forge a few hundred straight steel blades, you become somewhat bored with it...or in my terms "The hammer knows what its doing." Then you dive into damascus, and the inner fire is ignited all over again. Its new, its exciting, and its fun. Next comes Mosaic...which is another evolution all its own.

Concerning the question on the micro-serration effect, that characteristic is especially noticeable when the base damascus is created from a mixture of high and low carbon steels, in a fairly high layer count, with the laminates terminating or crossing the cutting edge. That mixture will provide an end product where you will have hard and soft layers (the high carbon portion will harden, where as the low carbon will remain comparitivley soft. This means that when the blade is sharpened the end result will be the "micro-serration" that was previously mentioned. Looking at it under a microscope the view resembles tiny teeth, similar to what you would see on a hacksaw blade. This edge does not hold better than any other because of the mild steel in the mix, but it does provide an extremely aggressive cutting edge that works very well on tough or fiberous cutting chores.

Addressing what Don said about the cutting abilities of damascus....I agree. If properly produced and heat treated, it will cut no worse than a blade made from one of its components. That being said, the majority of Bladesmiths today create their damascus out of alloys that are all hardenable. The obvious example is 1080 & 15N20. The reasons that this combination is so popular with bladesmiths is that the two alloys are so compatable. They exhibt very similar expansion and contraction properties, which makes them very easy to forge weld (15N20 is basically 1075 with 1.5% nickel content, meaning that it will achieve nearly identical "as quenched" hardness as 1080), and since the two are so similar, they can be forged in ways that would tear other combinations of steels apart. The next area where this combination of steels shines is in the heat treatment. With some mixtures (different alloys combined) the expansion and contraction properties are so far apart that the steel literally tries (and often succeeds) in tearing itself apart when quenched. This is not the case with 1080 and 15N20. Again, the mix is very compatible.

Where the rubber meets the road...testing and cutting ability. Its all up to the individual Bladesmith, and what each has deemed important. I personally believe that a knife is first a tool, and no matter how great it looks, it must first cut, and cut well. All Knifemakers do not necessarily share this idea, and it is true that some have created damascus blades strictly as "eye candy". Along those lines my mind goes back to the time when "nickel damascus" was popular. It was beautiful no doubt, but because of the nickle, which is a non-hardeneing alloy, those knives did not cut well, especially in lower layer counts (which were usually the most visually striking). Another example is the "El-Cheapo" thunderfoged damascus. I have fielded more calls and emails about that stuff than I care to remember..asking me why the blades made from it would not hold up. Its all about the "overall package", from beginning to end, that makes damscus an excellent cutting material....or not. From the choice of alloys, to the proper forging, to the heat treating, to the final geometry applied to the blade.

Finally, speaking strictly for myself, I have tested many, many damascus blades over the years. Many have been my own, and many have been from other Bladesmiths. Those blades that came from established Bladesmiths, whom I know their methods and intents, performed at a level ,or in some cases better, than straight steel blades. Those blades that came from individuals with minimal experience in Damascus steel were often sub-par. Its all about the experience and knowledge of the individual creating the damascus, and the blade that follows. Can Damascus keep up with the CPM steels? I've not tested them side by side to see, but if properly produced, I believe they could/can.
Where custom damascus knives are concerned, asking for impericale evidence is pretty much a moot point. There are far too many variables within each Bladesmith's shop. From base steel choices, to forging abilities, all the way through heat treating and geometry. It all has to do with the integrity of the individual Bladesmith, their abilities, and their drive to ensure that all the necessary ingredients have been included to produce a superior cutting implement. Do all Damascus blades cut as well or better than straight steel blades? No. Can they? Yes, I believe they can. One only has to look at the tests required by the ABS to know if a Damascus blade can cut as well as a straight steel blade...... ABS Mastersmith testing requirements. If Damascus could not be made into a superior cutting tool, none of use would have ever achieved our MS rating.

Didn't mean to be so long winded, but I felt it was all necessary.
 
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