DAMASCUS – Functional Knife Blade or Art?

The difference in the steels are highlighted by how the alloying elements react to the etchant. We know that the nickel bearing steels etch more silver, As I understand it, the more manganese you have in plain carbon steel, the darker it etches.
 
OK, so the oxidization is a process of etching/the etchant. Wouldn't that oxide be negated upon some polishing of the blade/final cleaning?
Eventualy it would wear off.


So to make a more damascus of greater contrasting steels you want to look at the percentage of manganese and?

Thank you all for this great information!! I really appreciate it!

Stefan
 
OK, so the oxidization is a process of etching/the etchant. Wouldn't that oxide be negated upon some polishing of the blade/final cleaning?
Eventualy it would wear off.

If you etch medium to deep for contrast, the only way to remove the oxide in the "valleys" would be to buff or polish down the "peaks".....that would be some massive amount of work, and pointless.

For the majority of intents and purposes, AN oxide layer in the "valleys" is there to stay.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
If you etch medium to deep for contrast, the only way to remove the oxide in the "valleys" would be to buff or polish down the "peaks".....that would be some massive amount of work, and pointless.

For the majority of intents and purposes, AN oxide layer in the "valleys" is there to stay.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson


I would think that would go for some of the deeper finer crevices on the blade and/or small holes surfuce imperfections (for lack of a better way of saying it). What about if you use a paste type polish, I would assume that would remove it? Now does this apply to all etchants?

Now the question of welded material being stronger then non welded/a forged billet? I've seen welds that are stronger then the material they welded but that is a function of heat and weakening of the neighboring material as the result of too much heat. I'm guessing welded material could be as strong but there is a greater chance for failure since there is a lot more that could go wrong. Imperfect welds, debree, etc. Any imperfection in the material in the blade is a weak spot if I'm correct?

This plagues me, and I know I will probably never be able to tell the difference in performance between x makers forged knife and his damascus forged knife providing he has the same amount of skill at forging each one?

This is me thinking out loud. Is my train of thought correct or am I off base?

Thanks for putting up with me and answering my questions!

Stefan
 
I know nickel is very impressive but what other metals,materials provide really good contrast when etched?

Thanks again,
Stefan
 
I haven't read any responses yet, so I'll do that afterwards.

Well...

To me, damascus on a knife blade is like wearing a pair of ostritch or alligator boots.

It screams out, "Look at me".

A woman of status, who wears the jewels, and too much lipstick outside the lines. And, wants everyone to know who she is, and how smart her kids are. And, she lives in a big house and has a rich husband. And she parks her car inside the garage. Her nails are done for her. She wants for nothing. And, in college she was popular. Blonde and beautiful. A head turner. Spoiled by daddy. And, she is not really anything special if you take away her beautiful hair. Her teeth and her nails, without these pristine objects she is nearly ugly.

Her "special" qualities are her looks and her high lifestyle. She owes everything to her looks.

It's all fashion.

You guys are talking jewelry, i think. Which is ok.

But, what is important about it, really?

It looks good. It looks interesting. It is artistic. It is refined, and sublime. It "will" be a knife, but it works equally well as a poodle, trophy, or on a keychain. Why be a knife when it could do So much more?

Golf clubs!
David
 
I would think that would go for some of the deeper finer crevices on the blade and/or small holes surfuce imperfections (for lack of a better way of saying it). What about if you use a paste type polish, I would assume that would remove it? Now does this apply to all etchants?

Now the question of welded material being stronger then non welded/a forged billet? I've seen welds that are stronger then the material they welded but that is a function of heat and weakening of the neighboring material as the result of too much heat. I'm guessing welded material could be as strong but there is a greater chance for failure since there is a lot more that could go wrong. Imperfect welds, debree, etc. Any imperfection in the material in the blade is a weak spot if I'm correct?

This plagues me, and I know I will probably never be able to tell the difference in performance between x makers forged knife and his damascus forged knife providing he has the same amount of skill at forging each one?

This is me thinking out loud. Is my train of thought correct or am I off base?

Thanks for putting up with me and answering my questions!

Stefan

ABS Journeymen smiths are required to forge damascus blades for use in their performance test to become mastersmiths. So I believe one can assume their damascus blades perform at least as well as their forged carbon blades.

ABS Mastersmith Performance Test.

1. ROPE CUTTING: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO TEST THE EDGE GEOMETRY AND SHARPNESS.
Applicant is responsible for supplying the test rope and ensuring that it is a minimum of one (1) inch in diameter. If the applicant brings a larger rope, the applicant will be judged using the same criteria as though the rope was one inch in diameter. The rope is to be hung in a safe manner, so that the end of the rope to be cut hangs loose without touching the floor or any other object. As a safety precaution, the rope is not to be hand held by another person during the rope-cutting test. The hanging end of the rope is to be marked with tape or a marker to clearly indicate the area that is to be cut. The cut must be approximately six (6) inches from the end of the free hanging rope. A minimum of one (1) cut must be made.

The applicant is to aim at the mark with a two (2) inch margin of high or low being acceptable. The applicant must sever the rope in two with one stroke. If the applicant fails on the first attempt, the Master Smith will allow two more attempts. However, if the Master Smith believes that the failure to sever the rope is due to the lack of skill or strength of the applicant, the Master Smith may attempt the rope cutting with the test knife. This is a test of the applicant s ability to make a knife, not to cut with it. If neither the applicant nor the Master Smith successfully cuts the rope, the applicant fails.

2. WOOD CHOPPING: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO DEMONSTRATE EDGE TOUGHNESS.
The chopping test is to be conducted with 2x4 construction grade wood stud of the applicant s choice. The 2x4 may be either hand held or clamped into a vise or other safe devise. A chopping motion (no whittling) is to be used. The 2x4 must be chopped completely through a minimum of two (2) times. The applicant may choose the area of the 2x4 to chop through.

Following the chopping test, the Master Smith will inspect the edge to determine if there is any noticeable damage to the blade. Any nicks, chips, flat spots, rolled edges, or other deformations of the blade will result in failing the test.

3. SHAVING HAIR: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO DEMONSTRATE EDGE RETENTION.
After the Master Smith approves the quality of the edge, the blade will be returned to the applicant. The applicant must then shave hair using the section of the blade that was most frequently used in the cutting and chopping portions of the test. Enough hair must be shaved to demonstrate that the edge remains keen and shaving sharp.

4. BENDING: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO SHOW THAT THE APPLICANT IS ABLE TO HEAT TREAT A KNIFE WITH A SOFT BACK AND A HARD EDGE.
The bending of the blade is the final test. Safety gear should be worn. At the discretion of the applicant or the Master Smith, the edge may be dulled prior to bending.

The Master Smith will mark a line across the width of the blade approximately 1/3 distance from the tip of the blade. The blade will then be inserted into a vise, tip first, such that the blade is placed into the vise up to the mark on the blade. If the vise jaws are rough, smooth metal inserts shall be located on each side of the clamped portion of the blade to protect the test knife.

The blade shall be bent by force applied to the handle. A leverage device such as a pipe may be used as long as it does not pose a safety risk. The use of such a device is at the sole risk of the applicant and at the discretion of the supervising Master Smith.

The applicant will then bend the blade ninety (90)degrees. The supervising Master Smith will signal the applicant when the ninety (90) degree angle has been reached.

The blade is allowed to crack at the edge on bending but not beyond approximately two thirds (2/3rds) the width of the blade. However, if any part of the blade chips or any part of the blade or tang breaks off, the applicant fails. Because of the many variables in the size,

Geometry, and temper line of the blade, the Master Smith using his/her judgment, shall determine if the extent or location of the fracture line is acceptable. The decision of the Master Smith is final.
 
I haven't read any responses yet, so I'll do that afterwards.

Well...

To me, damascus on a knife blade is like wearing a pair of ostritch or alligator boots.

It screams out, "Look at me".

A woman of status, who wears the jewels, and too much lipstick outside the lines. And, wants everyone to know who she is, and how smart her kids are. And, she lives in a big house and has a rich husband. And she parks her car inside the garage. Her nails are done for her. She wants for nothing. And, in college she was popular. Blonde and beautiful. A head turner. Spoiled by daddy. And, she is not really anything special if you take away her beautiful hair. Her teeth and her nails, without these pristine objects she is nearly ugly.

Her "special" qualities are her looks and her high lifestyle. She owes everything to her looks.

It's all fashion.

You guys are talking jewelry, i think. Which is ok.

But, what is important about it, really?

It looks good. It looks interesting. It is artistic. It is refined, and sublime. It "will" be a knife, but it works equally well as a poodle, trophy, or on a keychain. Why be a knife when it could do So much more?

Golf clubs!
David


Oh now, don't make me pull out my golfing pictures!:D
[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]



BTW has anybody tried bluing a damascus blade? After bluing wetsand the blade getting the high spots? I think that would really show some amazing contrast. I am thinking about trying it on my cable blade I made. I need to go pick up some bluing! Might be interesting, hopefully it turns out better then me trying to blue that W2 blade of mine!!!!:eek:
 
I know nickel is very impressive but what other metals,materials provide really good contrast when etched?

Thanks again,
Stefan
I don't think that any provide that bright silver look of nickel, but steels with varying amounts of manganese will etch differently. Steels with chromium, like 52100 and 5160 will also come out a slightly different shade. Smiths use nickel bearing steels like 15N20, L6 and 203E for a reason. Nothing works better for getting that high contrast and still having the blade made totally from steel that will harden.
 
Just to throw something else in the mix ------- don't forget that Ray Kirk was the first and maybe only one to win a cutting competition at the SOS show in Mesquite with a damascus blade. Did anyone else win with a damascus blade????????? Mike
 
I haven't read any responses yet, so I'll do that afterwards.
Well...

To me, damascus on a knife blade is like wearing a pair of ostritch or alligator boots.

It screams out, "Look at me".

A woman of status, who wears the jewels, and too much lipstick outside the lines. And, wants everyone to know who she is, and how smart her kids are. And, she lives in a big house and has a rich husband. And she parks her car inside the garage. Her nails are done for her. She wants for nothing. And, in college she was popular. Blonde and beautiful. A head turner. Spoiled by daddy. And, she is not really anything special if you take away her beautiful hair. Her teeth and her nails, without these pristine objects she is nearly ugly.

Her "special" qualities are her looks and her high lifestyle. She owes everything to her looks.

It's all fashion.

You guys are talking jewelry, i think. Which is ok.

But, what is important about it, really?

It looks good. It looks interesting. It is artistic. It is refined, and sublime. It "will" be a knife, but it works equally well as a poodle, trophy, or on a keychain. Why be a knife when it could do So much more?

Golf clubs!
David

Perhaps you should read first David. It may keep you from writing such a ridicules post next time. ;) :)
 
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BTW has anybody tried bluing a damascus blade? After bluing wetsand the blade getting the high spots? I think that would really show some amazing contrast. I am thinking about trying it on my cable blade I made. I need to go pick up some bluing! Might be interesting, hopefully it turns out better then me trying to blue that W2 blade of mine!!!!:eek:

A few years back, using black baking enamel to increase pattern contrast was popular as demonstrated by these two Tim Hancock beauties from the upcoming David Darom book "The Art of the Western Bladesmith"

picture.JPG
 
A few years back, using black baking enamel to increase pattern contrast was popular as demonstrated by these two Tim Hancock beauties from the upcoming David Darom book "The Art of the Western Bladesmith"

picture.JPG

Wow that is impressive. I wonder how well the enamel holds? I think I might try bluing just to try it.

I did not know that about the MS test!

Thanks for the information!

Very Respectfully,
Stefan
 
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I don't think that any provide that bright silver look of nickel, but steels with varying amounts of manganese will etch differently. Steels with chromium, like 52100 and 5160 will also come out a slightly different shade. Smiths use nickel bearing steels like 15N20, L6 and 203E for a reason. Nothing works better for getting that high contrast and still having the blade made totally from steel that will harden.


Good information! Thank you also!

I appreciate the help and tolerating my questions from you and Kevin!

Very Respectfully,
Stefan
 
I certainly put my foot in my mouth a bit. Should have read first. This actually is the best Thread discussion on damascus i've read, and shows the variables encountered, w/ different
types. Generalizations are not accurate.

Speaking of function, a damascus blade CAN cut better than a single steel blade due to the micro serrations of the layering as it reaches the edge. A lot depends on the pattern of the damascus, number of layers, etc. Some cutting chores are benefited by this.
I dont generally prefer damascus over a good carbon steel, but some might find the cutting qualities of damascus blades appealing and make or order their knives accordingly. Thats not to say I dont like damascus. I do. Just speaking of function right now.
Lin

Lin,
How is this true? What steels?

Have your tests shown tnis?
David
 
Karl,
If you are still on the line, have you compared any damascus blades to your 52100 and 5160 test blades? Would be interesting to hear results..
David
 
Just to throw something else in the mix ------- don't forget that Ray Kirk was the first and maybe only one to win a cutting competition at the SOS show in Mesquite with a damascus blade. Did anyone else win with a damascus blade????????? Mike
Kevin Cashen told us at Mid-Ohio that he entered that cutting comp with a damascus knife a while back because he was asked, I believe by Jerry Fisk, to do so to demonstrate that a properly made and heat treated damascus knife could be competitive. Suffice to say that it was. Kevin did some "stupid knife tricks" with a couple of big damascus choppers at the hammer-in during his discussion of cutting/edge geometry and we were duly impressed.:thumbup::D
 
There should be no difference in the cutting ability from a makers carbon knife or their damascus knife. .

i don't see how this is true. maybe I'm wrong, but as i understand, it (damascus) is a "compromise" for the sake of art. Always. Is this true?

Good, sure. Excellent, maybe. Equal or Better?
Microserations?.. need to hear more actual cutting test results. It follows a lot of hype- from how alluring it is to the eye. But, is it truly "worthwhile", and why?..
What doess the science say?
David
 
Originally Posted by lwrhea
Speaking of function, a damascus blade CAN cut better than a single steel blade due to the micro serrations of the layering as it reaches the edge. A lot depends on the pattern of the damascus, number of layers, etc. Some cutting chores are benefited by this.
I dont generally prefer damascus over a good carbon steel, but some might find the cutting qualities of damascus blades appealing and make or order their knives accordingly. Thats not to say I dont like damascus. I do. Just speaking of function right now.
Lin

Lin I agree that damascus can cut better than a single steel for some cutting chores due to the micro serrations caused by pattern and number of layers. I was told that the finer patterns like ladder and maiden's hair cut better than other patterns.

I would think that on a properly forge welded damascus blade that there is not much difference between damascus and a single steel.

The main reason that most makers don't use damascus in cutting competitions is the extra work and expense of making a damascus knife for a cutting competition.

Jim Treacy
 
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