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Damascus shouldn't be cheap
- Thread starter Culpeper
- Start date
Really? So, let me see an example of one (preferably production) knife marked as "damascus" that is made of "real damascus", i.e. wootz?
Today, the term "damascus" = pattern welded steel.
Airbag wasn't always called "airbag" by everyone, however today "airbag" is a term, like it or not...
Larrin
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Damascus has been the common term for pattern welded steel since at least the 70s. There has always been a group of people saying that the term "damascus" only refers to wootz, and that you should never refer to pattern-welded steel as damascus. Well, once a term is commonly used to refer to something, it is a proper term, whether you like it or not.
The $100 Bear Damascus Bowie's at SMKW's are a bargain. Alabama Damascus, which I believe is part of Bear, is the largest maker of Damascus steel in the states. They - and Bear - are located near Jacksonville, AL. They actually are reported to have made the Damascus blades for the recent short run of Kershaw Damascus Leeks (1660DAM - List $119.95). I believe SMKW had them for ~$80 - a real bargain. I have one of the $100 Bear Damascus Bowies and got my Dam Leek yesterday. They are definitely keepers.
I also picked up an assortment of Bear and Puma knives over the last six months from 'Academy Sports' chains on clearance. The Bears are not as finely made as Bucks - but they are great 'users' - and fairly priced - even before the discount. They are made here - in Alabama. The Puma's were all German made - and super nice - they like Stag.
I had the good fortune of finding a store (DLT Trading) near the original Marble's location - and they had some 'old' stock - made 'up there'. Great values. I believe some of Marble's current stock is still made here - in TN or KY, wherever they are. Much of their lessor expensive goodies are made 'offshore'. Heck, even Buck, not to mention Gerber, has a line made 'offshore', so it isn't a shocker at all. My two older Marble's are nice.
If you want a Kershaw Leek sized kife in Damascus, consider that 1660DAM. If you want a BIG hunk of Damascus, get the Bear Bowie - both blades were made in AL
Stainz!
I also picked up an assortment of Bear and Puma knives over the last six months from 'Academy Sports' chains on clearance. The Bears are not as finely made as Bucks - but they are great 'users' - and fairly priced - even before the discount. They are made here - in Alabama. The Puma's were all German made - and super nice - they like Stag.
I had the good fortune of finding a store (DLT Trading) near the original Marble's location - and they had some 'old' stock - made 'up there'. Great values. I believe some of Marble's current stock is still made here - in TN or KY, wherever they are. Much of their lessor expensive goodies are made 'offshore'. Heck, even Buck, not to mention Gerber, has a line made 'offshore', so it isn't a shocker at all. My two older Marble's are nice.
If you want a Kershaw Leek sized kife in Damascus, consider that 1660DAM. If you want a BIG hunk of Damascus, get the Bear Bowie - both blades were made in AL
Stainz!
Culpeper
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Some people believe with great fervor preposterous things that just happen to coincide with their self-interest. Since I no longer own anything remotely "Damascus" I can easily argue that pattern welded steel is not true Damascus steel. Whatever is seen on occasion in Lake Loch Ness is commonly referred to as a "monster" but that doesn't make it so. I would settle with calling old country "Damascus" as "Damask Steel" and the pattern welded, acid etched, sit on your shelf or else you'll scratch it as, "Damascus Steel". I can think of a few words for sexual intercourse that is commonly used but that also doesn't make said words proper. Hey, I'm not trying to squeeze blood from a stone. I just got through thumbing pages of Blade Magazine and looking at advertisements for "Damascus" blades and I couldn't find but a few that referred to the fact that the process is pattern welded steel. Everybody knows that a lot of ignorant people are buying knives at a premium but they think they have something like what some of the Crusaders used. Again, that doesn't make it so.
Culpeper
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I'll do that. The "Bear" Bowie that is. So, I can show some people what simple pattern welded steel looks like, commonly referred to as "Damascus Steel". I like the $100 Bear Bowie with the white bone handle.
Well, that line of argument would display a good deal of ignorance. Up until recently, it was not understood (and I would argue that it is still not fully understood) how ancient damascus (wootz)-blades were made and what gave them their distinctive pattern. Even now, there are only very few people/companies/researchers that think they can reproduce true wootz damascus. So anyone who believes to buy something reminicent of the days of the crusade when buying "damascus-steel" simply hasn't made their homework. In addition pattern welded steel has been around the block a few times as well. It has been forged in the west for several decades and historically has been used in the far east as "embelishment" for sandwiched blades aswell. Finally the term "damascus" has historically also only pointed in a general geographic direction. It is not that the making was confined to the city of Damast, so the term has historically arisen as a colloquial term as well. Why is it so wrong that now pattern welded steel is named after the pattern in wootz damascus and is also colloquially referred to "damast steel"?
Finally, pattern welding is an art in and of itself as well. If you think that pattern welded steel is just some knock-off of wootz, you should take a close look at what some blades smiths like Devin Thomas (who is probably the most recognized name in pattern welding these days and happens to be be Larrin's father) or Ed Schempp for example can pattern well.
Culpeper
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Please don't quote me out of context...
Yeah, I'm doing my homework and not going to be telling people this is the steel of the ancients. But the industry doesn't seem to have a problem with, well if they want to think wages is not income and only gold is money than that is their fault and lets just take their money and glut the market with junk. Like the Marble's junk I bought advertised as, "Genuine Damascus". Someone can piss on my boots and tell me it is raining only one time. After that, I get it.
Yeah, I'm doing my homework and not going to be telling people this is the steel of the ancients. But the industry doesn't seem to have a problem with, well if they want to think wages is not income and only gold is money than that is their fault and lets just take their money and glut the market with junk. Like the Marble's junk I bought advertised as, "Genuine Damascus". Someone can piss on my boots and tell me it is raining only one time. After that, I get it.
Culpeper
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It (Marble's) has the plain what is on this blade look like that Marble's Pakistan knife I just sent back.
But this Damascus USA blade is interesting...
Culpeper I never intended to quote you out of context. Still not sure I have, but I appolgize if it was so perceived on your end.
Still, I read out of your posts that you feel led on by the term "damascus/damast/damask steel into buying something that you thought was something both ancient and superior. This is something that I don't quite understand. If you were a real history buff or interested in historic weapons, you should have come across the difference between pattern welding and wootz long before you made you purchase. Which makes me wonder why you bought a damascus blade to begin with? If you bought it for the looks, the difference shouldn't matter to you and performance wise: How do you know that a wootz damascus blade is superior to modern steels and or to pattern welded steels and if so, in which way? Modern metallurgy has some a long way since the times of ancient wootz damascus. Either way, I am pretty sure that it wasn't anybodies intention to pee on your boots.
Lastly, if you are just starting to get intersted in this subject, I am somewhat surprised that you are trying to propose a naming scheme on how damascus steel should be referred to. Strikes me as somewhat arrogant to be quite frank. Also your naming scheme obviously doesn't work out. The city in question is writen differently in different languages, so whether you call the steel "damascus", "damaskus", "damask", or "damast" really make no difference, all you have done is name the same thing in different languages.
To end on the more positive note: I think the most impressive example of pattern welding, that I have seen sofar, was the Spyderco logo patternwelded by Ed Schempp.
Still, I read out of your posts that you feel led on by the term "damascus/damast/damask steel into buying something that you thought was something both ancient and superior. This is something that I don't quite understand. If you were a real history buff or interested in historic weapons, you should have come across the difference between pattern welding and wootz long before you made you purchase. Which makes me wonder why you bought a damascus blade to begin with? If you bought it for the looks, the difference shouldn't matter to you and performance wise: How do you know that a wootz damascus blade is superior to modern steels and or to pattern welded steels and if so, in which way? Modern metallurgy has some a long way since the times of ancient wootz damascus. Either way, I am pretty sure that it wasn't anybodies intention to pee on your boots.
Lastly, if you are just starting to get intersted in this subject, I am somewhat surprised that you are trying to propose a naming scheme on how damascus steel should be referred to. Strikes me as somewhat arrogant to be quite frank. Also your naming scheme obviously doesn't work out. The city in question is writen differently in different languages, so whether you call the steel "damascus", "damaskus", "damask", or "damast" really make no difference, all you have done is name the same thing in different languages.
To end on the more positive note: I think the most impressive example of pattern welding, that I have seen sofar, was the Spyderco logo patternwelded by Ed Schempp.
Culpeper
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Oh no, I had no intention of coming across as upset. I'm very interested in the subject. I didn't get my feeling hurt or anything like that and, yes, I purchased a cheap so-called Damascus knife out of curiosity and then went from there. I don't have a problem with pattern welded steel being named "Damascus Steel". I use the term myself throughout the thread out of input from others such as yourself. What I have found is that the art has been pissed on with cheap imitation like any other art but the industry shouldn't get a "bye" just "because". Companies like Marble's should be pointed that their "Genuine Damascus" is nothing more than cheap shit. And though I'm new to this subject I think calling anything "Damascus" that has been dipped in acid is insult to such new names for me such as, Joel Davis. Thus, the title of my thread, Damascus shouldn't be cheap. I find it disrespectful to the original people that created the original so-called Damascus steel without the need of power hammers and hydraulic presses. I have no problem with starting such things as a smear campaign against companies like Marble's for putting out cheap crap and calling it Damascus because in this case I don't suffer from contempt prior to investigation. I went into the subject with a suspicion but I didn't want to post anything unless had something tangible to look at first, ask the question, read recommended sources and come to my own opinion. Cheap Damascus like I got from Marble's is a fraud. You or anyone else on this thread were not the ones pissing on my boots. It was a company like I mentioned and my own ignorance was what motivated me to get pissed on in the first place. I also know that my opinions come across as criticism but sometimes I make fun of myself....
I also think new people that are truly interested in a subject should challenge the knowledge of those more experienced. How else am I going to get corrected?
I also think new people that are truly interested in a subject should challenge the knowledge of those more experienced. How else am I going to get corrected?
Kohai999
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All modern pattern welded steels are etched in acid solution, usually nitric acid, or ferric chloride.
In Indonesia, they use cyanide and lemon.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
Culpeper
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Well for one thing, Alabama Damascus isn't even in Damascus Alabama.
What crap, they should move their factory there.
mike
TEXAN!
Culpeper
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If my memory is correct Fain Edwards originally supplied the damascus to Bear.
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I have used several billets of Alabama Damascus( Brad Vice) that I bought on e-bay. They were all good. Grind like butter, good patterns and stick at around 60 rc on initial heat treat. No complaint's.
Monty
Monty