Dealbreakers

Jose Reyes

Jose Reyes

Joined
Nov 14, 2001
Messages
1,152
I'm wondering what details would cause you to pass on an otherwise perfect knife? For me it's filework on the spine and Spanish notches. Steven seems to dislike raised choils and I'm sure there are other details that you guys find important. So, what are your pet peeves regarding knife design?
 
Not sure if there's any. Maybe if I suspected deeply that the handle material has been harvested unethically (my definition of it) - i.e., poached endangered animals. Also, if the maker rubs me the wrong way. It takes a lot for that, but I know that I wouldn't buy a knife from watsizname pseudo-ninja. :jerkit:

I won't buy the basic ABS bowie at this point. It's not that I have too many, but I'm bored to tears with them. Generally, I also won't buy the classic flat oval guard on a bowie (most of which are "classic ABS bowies" anyways). There can be exceptions to this ffor the right price / maker.

I won't buy a full tang knife where the tang isn't tappered.

I won't buy any of the goofy blade grinds found on too many tactical knives these days.

I don't like the Buster Warensky style leaf blade daggers.

At this point, I pam probably not buying Japanese style blades, partly because I have quite a few, partly because they're very expensive for the quality in comparisin with traditional custom knives.

I refuse to buy over the internet expensive pieces when the ppicture posted is crappy.
 
A cracked ivory handle will cause me to avoid the knife.

A lot of brass in the fittings.

Giraffe bone.

Narrow Bowie blades.

A knife without a sheath....not sure that counts in the context of this thread.

Really skinny/thin guards on a Bowie.

Knives with the handle material that rests right up against the guard (i.e., where there is no ferrule or spacers to seperate the guard from the handle material).

Mortised tang handles.
 
Jose Reyes said:
I guess it deserves it's own thread but I wonder what aspects would cause you guys to pass on an otherwise "perfect" piece?
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1. Bead blasted blades-have a few, but don't want any more.

2. Brass or nickel silver fittings.

3. Poor transition from blade to handle.

4. Slab handles without a guard or bolster on anything but an inexpensive user.

5. Handles without a mechanical bond-pin or bolt or threaded tang.

6. Aesthetically unappealing engraving or handle sculpting/carving-better to be unadorned.

7. "fishhooks" on handrubbed satin finishes.

8. The afformentioned spanish notches.

9. The afformentioned, dreaded "raised choil".

10. C or D guards that don't work with the piece.

11. Bad blade to handle ratio. If it has a 5" blade, I prefer a 4 1/4" handle on a fixed blade. On a folder, handle anything more than 1" longer than the blade is TOO long.

12. Unimaginative or poorly executed damascus patterns, bad welds, cold shunts, glaring pattern deviation in a conspicuous location.

13. Giraffe Bone, oosik(normally),ivory, boring wood, cracked anything; specifically pearl.

14. Uncentered blades in folders, the detent not matching the ball, so the blade point can stick up without interference. Front to back play.

15. Slotted(without filework) or especially phillips screw construction.

16. Goofy looking blades without a clear purpose.

17. Loveless style blades that seek to "interpret" rather than shooting for the brass ring, and doing the correct elements-lugged guard on subhilts, proper shape, tapered tang, deep hollow grinds....

Lastly, not that I would not buy the knife for this reason, but I TRULY dislike kydex sheaths. On Dozier and Krein knives, I get Kenny Rowe to make leather sheaths for me. Kydex scratches the hell out of a blades' finish.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
tom mayo said:
wow steve.......thats a long list!:p
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Just off the top of my head, Tom.:)

Had a fair amount of time to consider in the last 22 years. Explaining to a maker diplomatically what the lack of satisfaction is, that has been the hard part.:eek:

Now that my meds are dialed in, it has gotten a lot easier.:D

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Actually, my wife telling me I can't have it is my biggest deal breaker. :D
 
I passed on some very nice folders that were liner locks. I realize it is an effective way to lock a knife if it is done right, but I just have a personal hang-up on liner locks I prefer pieces with more diverse/complex locking mechanisms.

Gotta agree about not liking filework on the spine....or on the backspacer for that matter.

Also, unfortunately for me, I have myself convinced that I don't like Black Lip Pearl any longer. There is a Bennica Butt Cap folder available that I would love to have, but it has Black Lip and I can't convince myself that I want another Black Lip knife. I'd love it if it had Lapis or some other stone instead.
 
RWS, LOL, as much as I love knives none are worth sleeping on the couch over. Well, maybe if it's only for a couple of months...:D I agree with your first point but that's more of a flaw in my opinion.

From Steven's list I would add # 7 & 12. # 16 too but to me that's something major that would keep me from being interested in the first place.

Interesting to see two different sides of the spectrum from Joss and Steven, who each have a pretty nice collection IMHO.

Blacklip pearl is beautiful but I would be concerned about it's fragility...
 
Jose Reyes said:
I'm wondering what details would cause you to pass on an otherwise perfect knife? For me it's filework on the spine and Spanish notches. Steven seems to dislike raised choils and I'm sure there are other details that you guys find important. So, what are your pet peeves regarding knife design?
Click to expand...

Great thread Jose. I will add my extensive list tomorrow. To late to get into it tonight.:yawn:
Curious thought, so you don't like tastefully done decorative filework on a blade spine?
 
Kevin Jones said:
Great thread Jose. I will add my extensive list tomorrow. To late to get into it tonight.:yawn:
Curious thought, so you don't like tastefully done decorative filework on a blade spine?
Click to expand...

No, I pretty much dislike any filework on the spine, although I can live with an inch or so of serrations on a nice piece. There was a super nice Jerry Fisk Sendero with wolf's tooth damascus that I was really lusting after but the circular notches he puts on them were the dealbreaker. On a folder though I don't mind filework on the "backspacer" as long as it isn't on the blade itself.
 
A few of the things likely to make me pass on a knife (in no particular order):

1) Uneven plunge cuts - not a deal-breaker on an appropriately priced knife from a newer smith, but a deal-breaker on a MS knife.

2) Indifferent hand-rubbed satin finish. This is the toughest part about buying knives on-line: photos tend to make all satin finished knives look equally good. They sure aren't. And there is no magic to the fineness of the grit. I'll take a flawlessly executed 600 grit any day over the guy who took it to 1200 but didn't get the 600 stage right in the first place.

3) Poor fitment of blade to guard or off-centered guard.

4) D-guards or very elongated S-guards (legality / importation issues).

5) S-guards that run too close to the handle on the underside, interfering with a proper grip.

6) Short handles. I don't have huge hands, but have found more than a few bowies and fighters with not enough handle length. It doesn't matter that I'm not going to use it - when I pick it up, the knife has to feel secure in hand. A 10" plus blade with a 4" handle is just not on. This is most often seen when the maker is limited by the length of the natural handle material - like a walrus tusk that is only so long. Fine, but for me, I would prefer the use of a spacer in a complimentary material to lengthen things out.

7) Handles with overly thick midesections. I'm not sure where or when, but somehow the notion of a "palm swell" has been embraced as definitive of a properly designed handle - to the point where some feel that more is better. I like to see a top view profile of a knife handle before I buy - 'cause I positively can't stand an overdone palm swell that makes me feel like I just grabbed hold of a cue ball.

8) Full exposed tang - a deal-breaker on all but an inexpensive user. I just don't like the look and really don't like the sharp edges of the tang that can be exposed with but a little shrinkage of the scales.

9) Elephant ivory - beautiful stuff, but too many importation hassles to make it worth my while.

10) Stag carvers (crown stag excepted) or walrus tusks not finished with a butt cap. Personal preference here, but I don't generally find the pithy core of a horn or tusk to be it's most attractive feature. Cover it up, please. It makes the knife look properly finished.

11) As Joss alluded to - the maker. My experience in the forged blade field has been so overwhelmingly posiitive that I am hesitant to even mention this, but if the maker is a first class ego-maniacal jerk, my money will stay in my pocket no matter how good the knife is.

12) Boring wood. The good stuff is not that much more costly, please use it. I for one like carbon steel wood-handled bowies perfectly well, but the wood should be of the finest example of its kind - not a lifeless broom handle.

13) Thanks to Kevin for reminding me - Micarta. I don't want it even on a user. Don't like it, won't have it.

There are many more elements of design that are very important to me - but these are a few of the spot-it-right-away elements that inform my "pay or pass" decision making.

Roger
 
Jose Reyes said:
Interesting to see two different sides of the spectrum from Joss and Steven, who each have a pretty nice collection IMHO.
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STeven is much more experienced and methodical than I am. Maybe it's due to having had to make money at the trade.

I added a few items, upon reflection.

Many things posted are flaws, IMHO, not design choices.
 
There is a good long list of things here I agree with. Some may not be a dealbreaker, but certainly items I would scrutinize.

My peaves:

  • Damascus folders that open with the layers being felt on the detent ball. Yuck. Believe me, some of the best in the industry get it wrong, and others make it appear easy. A gent's folder should not need to open stiffly or less than smooth.

  • A poorly placed, inscribed, etched, designed, or stamped maker's mark. Here is an area that is so completely personal, that it is hard to ever critique this aspect. But--we know it when we see a good one, and we remain quiet when it's abysmal. (As social needs dictate.)

  • Any folder with a clip and no originality or consideration of the 'flow'. Those ubiquitous generic 3-hole Spyderco clips are still being provided on top maker's work. Yuck.

  • Imprecise filework. Not matching symmetry or uninspired same ol'--same ol' design.
Coop
 
Joss, I'm assuming we are referring to design issues or flaws here if I understand Jose's thread title.

In no particular order.

1) Cracks in handle material other than natural "bark" of course.
2) I'm very into frame handles; however it's a problem if the slabs have shrunk away leaving a frame edge that is noticeable to the eye or sharp.
3) Inferior hand rubbed finish. Higher the grit, the more the blade's imperfections show. As Roger, I would much rather see a well executed 600-1000 than poor executed 1500-2000.
4) Imperfections or very noticeable variations to pattern in Damascus.
5) Micarta handle material on anything other than a user.
6) Poor fit of handle material against fittings.
7) Guards that are not centered.
8) Poor blade to handle ratio.
9) Blued fittings.
10) Scratched guards.
11) Bad welds or similar imperfections in Damascus.

May be more, but these are the ones most important to me.
 
Recently a very well regarded MS was telling me about a nice large Bowie knife that he was bringing to Little Rock. When he started to describe its BRIGHT BLUE fittings, I stopped the conversation. That was the end of my interest in the knife.

I utterly detest BLUED FITTINGS. Giraffe bone, oosic, ugly stag, and boring wood handles are also deal killers. Give me black micarta anyday. I will run away from ugly Damascus blades. I can live with nickle silver fittings, but prefer stainless or damascus.
 
Kevin & ptgdvc- Question regarding blued fittings: Is this more a personal taste thing regarding the color, (i.e., would browned, plum, blacked rust, etc. be preferable?) or is it concern that the finish will wear off the edges just from handling it? Would other finishes on the same material be preferable- such as French Gray or simply left "in the white"? Or would you rather see a different material chosen such as wrought iron or damascus?
 
I'm impressed.:thumbup:

You all pay close attention to your knives. You know what you like and what you don't -- sometimes in excruciating detail.

Other than the obvious (a design I can't love, a maker whose philosophy or ethics rubs be wrong), it usually boils down to:

--Poor fit and finish. Each aspect of the knife must be well-executed, with great thought and care. For me, this encapsulates most of what has already been discussed.

--From Roger P's well thought out list, I heartily agree with: 5, 6, 7, and 10. These really aren't fit and finish issues but are matters of taste (where mine are in agreement with his).

--From Steven's interesting list, 6, 9, and 10. Definitely!

Also, must admit, when I've gone 'a little too far,' the spousal unit definitely yanks my chain. We've got a lot of couches, but these old bones prefer our bed.
 
the possum said:
Kevin & ptgdvc- Question regarding blued fittings: Is this more a personal taste thing regarding the color, (i.e., would browned, plum, blacked rust, etc. be preferable?) or is it concern that the finish will wear off the edges just from handling it? Would other finishes on the same material be preferable- such as French Gray or simply left "in the white"? Or would you rather see a different material chosen such as wrought iron or damascus?
Click to expand...

It’s mostly a durability issue with me, though quite a bit isn't visually appealing to me either.
I had a bad experience with bluing on an expensive shotgun one time. You really don't have many options on shotguns, however there are many other finishes to choose from with knives.
 
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