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Dealbreakers
- Thread starter Jose Reyes
- Start date
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2003
- Messages
- 1,235
I think its interesting that, flaws and imperfections aside, a number of peoples deal breakers are deal winners for others.
I often ponder the psychology of custom knife collecting, the variety of characters, and the very different and vociferous opinions expressed.
What I have concluded is the following:
Custom knife collectors love knives, different types of knives, and they spend lots of money on them. These knives are often unique one of kind items, art, which you can't look up on the internet or a magazine to check out the lastest popular review on. That kind of hints at the fact that we are mostly individuals with a clear understanding of what we like and don't like, able to make purchasing decisions without the assurances of mass appeal or approval of others.
Whats a deal breaker for me? ....... Anything I don't like ...... having lived with myself for nearly 40yrs I know that what falls into that category can change:
Stephen
I often ponder the psychology of custom knife collecting, the variety of characters, and the very different and vociferous opinions expressed.
What I have concluded is the following:
Custom knife collectors love knives, different types of knives, and they spend lots of money on them. These knives are often unique one of kind items, art, which you can't look up on the internet or a magazine to check out the lastest popular review on. That kind of hints at the fact that we are mostly individuals with a clear understanding of what we like and don't like, able to make purchasing decisions without the assurances of mass appeal or approval of others.
Whats a deal breaker for me? ....... Anything I don't like ...... having lived with myself for nearly 40yrs I know that what falls into that category can change:
Stephen
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2003
- Messages
- 2,369
I am going to toss out the ultimate deal breaker that has not been mentioned!
I think the knife is ugly.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and if I THINK, for whatever reason, that the design isn't pleasing to MY eye.
FORGET about the technical merit and the superb workmanship. My wallet stays closed.
I try really hard to only buy knives that I consider to be very beautiful.
I think the knife is ugly.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and if I THINK, for whatever reason, that the design isn't pleasing to MY eye.
FORGET about the technical merit and the superb workmanship. My wallet stays closed.
I try really hard to only buy knives that I consider to be very beautiful.
Phillip Patton
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2005
- Messages
- 5,344
Great thread! As a maker, it's nice to know what the buyers are thinking.
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2002
- Messages
- 12,297
I am going to toss out the ultimate deal breaker that has not been mentioned!
I think the knife is ugly.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and if I THINK, for whatever reason, that the design isn't pleasing to MY eye.
FORGET about the technical merit and the superb workmanship. My wallet stays closed.
I try really hard to only buy knives that I consider to be very beautiful.
Don't you buy no ugly knife
- Joined
- May 9, 2000
- Messages
- 29,205
Giraffe bone
Brass guard and or buttcap (brass spacers are okay)
Mediocre handle material
Filework
Mosaic pins when I don't think they look appropriate to the design.
Blued or black blade
Pattern welded steel with a pattern that I don't like.
Brass guard and or buttcap (brass spacers are okay)
Mediocre handle material
Filework
Mosaic pins when I don't think they look appropriate to the design.
Blued or black blade
Pattern welded steel with a pattern that I don't like.
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2006
- Messages
- 13,363
I think its interesting that, flaws and imperfections aside, a number of peoples deal breakers are deal winners for others.
I often ponder the psychology of custom knife collecting, the variety of characters, and the very different and vociferous opinions expressed.
What I have concluded is the following:
Custom knife collectors love knives, different types of knives, and they spend lots of money on them. These knives are often unique one of kind items, art, which you can't look up on the internet or a magazine to check out the lastest popular review on. That kind of hints at the fact that we are mostly individuals with a clear understanding of what we like and don't like, able to make purchasing decisions without the assurances of mass appeal or approval of others.
Whats a deal breaker for me? ....... Anything I don't like ...... having lived with myself for nearly 40yrs I know that what falls into that category can change:
Stephen
Very well put Stephen. Bravo :thumbup: :thumbup:
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2006
- Messages
- 13,363
- Joined
- Sep 26, 1999
- Messages
- 4,486
I am seeing allot of dislike for Nickel Silver here...Does this mean you would pass on a reproduction that was done with the same material as the original...This would also include Brass on some,like the Ames Bowies....
Man these are some big lists of "I dont like's" good thing you have many makers to choose from.
This thread brings back the point of.....Collecters and makers need to disscuss knives allot more,not just collecters wanting one thing and the maker seeing something else and wondering why he doesnt get looked at....
Communication....we need Communication
Great thread by the way
Bruce
Man these are some big lists of "I dont like's" good thing you have many makers to choose from.
This thread brings back the point of.....Collecters and makers need to disscuss knives allot more,not just collecters wanting one thing and the maker seeing something else and wondering why he doesnt get looked at....
Communication....we need Communication
Great thread by the way
Bruce
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Great thread, unfortunately the majority of the posters are very knife educated collectors. Why is this unfortunate? Most of the people reading this and other internet forums didn't know what a "plung cut" was until Dan Farr's article. Which makes me wonder how does he have time to write articles when he is 4 years behind on orders...put that is another thread.
First, let me state I am a custom knife purveyor. I buy knives (mostly) with the specific intent to resell. Consequently, I am very aware of what collectors like and dislike.
What amazes me is that the majority of knife makers are unaware of what collectors want. This probably explains why 95% of knife makers are part time.
My big three are:
Fit
Finish
Flow (this includes blade to handle ratio) Makers pay attention A 5" handle should not have a 2-3" blade. Now, never wonder again why you brought that knife home from a show.
One thing I noticed at the Little Rock show...lots of Damascus, most very plain some bordered on ugly. Some makers explained to me that this was a skill they needed to test for their MS stamp. This comment stunned me...these makers were JS qualified and were thinking a year in advance. WOW. Ladies and Gentlemen I have no doubt these makers will earn their MS stamp. They are acting like PROFESSIONALS. I was impressed! Then there were the makers who thought they should get an extra $200 - $300 for plain Damascus....just because it was Damascus.
To those makers using Damascus, the days of the "exotic mystery" steel are over. You want more than an extra $100 on a Bowie, it better be some good looking pattern. Terry Davis had a hunter with what he called "Feather" Damascus. When I looked at it the first thing I thought was "This looks just like a feather". It was then he told me it was "Feather" Damascus....very nice.
DON"T COME TO A SHOW WITH A HUNTER THAT DOES NOT HAVE A SHEATH.
Much like planning to become MS. Plan ahead for your sheaths. I know that Kenny Rowe and K.D Graham can make a sheath off of a drawing or copy of your knife. You can even fax it to them, yes some faxes do come out a little smaller, include the dimensions. BE A PROFESSIONAL.
Just say NO to Giraffe Bone.
NEVER USE BRASS.....EVER. I know it is soft, cheap and easy to work. Collectors don't want to have to clean their knife every 3 days.
Silicon Bronze..takes on a Patina! Brass Rusts!
Don't use white Mastodon Ivory with cracks in it. Why, because the majority of the people walking through the show till think it is Elephant Ivory. Some will think you are a low life SOB for killing Elephants. As it has been pointed out Elephant Ivory with a crack is a deal breaker.
Mastodon Ivory with color and cracks has "Character". Surface Ivory which is nothing but cracks and checks can make beautiful handles. Mike Ruth had an exceptional knife with this handle material at the Arkansas Show. Very NICE!
MOKUME....this is the Japanese word for "Something to never be used on a knife". No really, look it up. Stop it right now, I don't care how good it looks as jewelery.
Makers charging too much money for their position in the custom knife market.
Collectors who buy these knives are rewarding bad knife makers and punishing good makers they never heard of. Buyers of these knives are heard to say "I buy what I like". Later they are heard to say "I'd rather keep it than sell it for half price". Hence the term "Graveyard Knife" was coined. That's right I get a nickle every time someone writes or says that.
Although I am seeing and hearing the "I" word used more with regards to custom knives. Even though the majority of members of this particular sector of BF have presented viable arguments as to why the "I" word cannot be used. Makes you wonder how many "Graveyard" knives are in their collection.
Engraved knives. Almost without exception this gives the next buyer a reason not to buy the knife.
Scrimshaw. See above. Note you love Yellow labs, but the buyer loves Black Labs or Brown Labs or a Cocker Spaniel.
While many of you may think I am talking about reselling. The rules apply for the most part to makers selling the knife for the first time.
Ok, back to pet peeves:
Dove tail bolsters that don't match.
One bolster longer than the other.
Blades that don't center in a folder.
Blades that sick out past the handle when the folder is closed.
3" Bladed "Flipper" folders that don't open when the flipper is used.
Jigged bone on anything but a copy of an old factory knife.
4 pound 7" fighters. These knives feature saw teeth, wrench cut outs, wire cutters, 5/16" stock, etc. While the makers swear the ABC law enforcement guys and Elite Military are using them (Perhaps SEAL's in lieu of a weight belt).
These are predominately bought by Wannabe's and Mall Ninja's.
Oh, 3/16" stock on folders have to be questioned. Hello the pivot pin will swedge long before the blade breaks. 1/4" stock for a folder is right out.
2 Pound Folders.
Master Smith makers who are not making their own Damascus.
Sloppy solder joints, burnt spots on the solder, flux pits on the blade or guard.
Mortised tangs with a split between the wood or whatever handle material was used.
Sub-Hilt Fighters with lousy joints that are filled with epoxy to make it look "right".
Kydex Sheaths, have the maker put mole skin at the opening and that will keep the blade from getting scratched by the sheath.
Now all that said...every knife has a flaw.
That being said, the price of the knife should be commensurate with the mistakes. Remember you are being paid for your mistakes which is the best way to learn. If you knife is suffering from "Gaposis" this term coined by DR. P Gill. That is the gap between your blade and guard...you don't get $500 for the knife. If you have Gaposis between your bolster and tang....you don't get $500 for your knife. I don't care who the maker is. Gaposis can also be diagnosed with regards to your handle material. Yes, a crack is considered a form of Gaposis, known as Venous Gaposis.
Iis too bad I can video the judging at some of the shows I judge at. That would be the only class a knife maker would need. Sometimes the judges are just totally stunned....like the 10" bladed Hunter!
Ok, that is enough of that.
Make the best knife you can, try improve on each one, then charge a fair price for the knife.
WWG
First, let me state I am a custom knife purveyor. I buy knives (mostly) with the specific intent to resell. Consequently, I am very aware of what collectors like and dislike.
What amazes me is that the majority of knife makers are unaware of what collectors want. This probably explains why 95% of knife makers are part time.
My big three are:
Fit
Finish
Flow (this includes blade to handle ratio) Makers pay attention A 5" handle should not have a 2-3" blade. Now, never wonder again why you brought that knife home from a show.
One thing I noticed at the Little Rock show...lots of Damascus, most very plain some bordered on ugly. Some makers explained to me that this was a skill they needed to test for their MS stamp. This comment stunned me...these makers were JS qualified and were thinking a year in advance. WOW. Ladies and Gentlemen I have no doubt these makers will earn their MS stamp. They are acting like PROFESSIONALS. I was impressed! Then there were the makers who thought they should get an extra $200 - $300 for plain Damascus....just because it was Damascus.
To those makers using Damascus, the days of the "exotic mystery" steel are over. You want more than an extra $100 on a Bowie, it better be some good looking pattern. Terry Davis had a hunter with what he called "Feather" Damascus. When I looked at it the first thing I thought was "This looks just like a feather". It was then he told me it was "Feather" Damascus....very nice.
DON"T COME TO A SHOW WITH A HUNTER THAT DOES NOT HAVE A SHEATH.
Much like planning to become MS. Plan ahead for your sheaths. I know that Kenny Rowe and K.D Graham can make a sheath off of a drawing or copy of your knife. You can even fax it to them, yes some faxes do come out a little smaller, include the dimensions. BE A PROFESSIONAL.
Just say NO to Giraffe Bone.
NEVER USE BRASS.....EVER. I know it is soft, cheap and easy to work. Collectors don't want to have to clean their knife every 3 days.
Silicon Bronze..takes on a Patina! Brass Rusts!
Don't use white Mastodon Ivory with cracks in it. Why, because the majority of the people walking through the show till think it is Elephant Ivory. Some will think you are a low life SOB for killing Elephants. As it has been pointed out Elephant Ivory with a crack is a deal breaker.
Mastodon Ivory with color and cracks has "Character". Surface Ivory which is nothing but cracks and checks can make beautiful handles. Mike Ruth had an exceptional knife with this handle material at the Arkansas Show. Very NICE!
MOKUME....this is the Japanese word for "Something to never be used on a knife". No really, look it up. Stop it right now, I don't care how good it looks as jewelery.
Makers charging too much money for their position in the custom knife market.
Collectors who buy these knives are rewarding bad knife makers and punishing good makers they never heard of. Buyers of these knives are heard to say "I buy what I like". Later they are heard to say "I'd rather keep it than sell it for half price". Hence the term "Graveyard Knife" was coined. That's right I get a nickle every time someone writes or says that.
Although I am seeing and hearing the "I" word used more with regards to custom knives. Even though the majority of members of this particular sector of BF have presented viable arguments as to why the "I" word cannot be used. Makes you wonder how many "Graveyard" knives are in their collection.
Engraved knives. Almost without exception this gives the next buyer a reason not to buy the knife.
Scrimshaw. See above. Note you love Yellow labs, but the buyer loves Black Labs or Brown Labs or a Cocker Spaniel.
While many of you may think I am talking about reselling. The rules apply for the most part to makers selling the knife for the first time.
Ok, back to pet peeves:
Dove tail bolsters that don't match.
One bolster longer than the other.
Blades that don't center in a folder.
Blades that sick out past the handle when the folder is closed.
3" Bladed "Flipper" folders that don't open when the flipper is used.
Jigged bone on anything but a copy of an old factory knife.
4 pound 7" fighters. These knives feature saw teeth, wrench cut outs, wire cutters, 5/16" stock, etc. While the makers swear the ABC law enforcement guys and Elite Military are using them (Perhaps SEAL's in lieu of a weight belt).
These are predominately bought by Wannabe's and Mall Ninja's.
Oh, 3/16" stock on folders have to be questioned. Hello the pivot pin will swedge long before the blade breaks. 1/4" stock for a folder is right out.
2 Pound Folders.
Master Smith makers who are not making their own Damascus.
Sloppy solder joints, burnt spots on the solder, flux pits on the blade or guard.
Mortised tangs with a split between the wood or whatever handle material was used.
Sub-Hilt Fighters with lousy joints that are filled with epoxy to make it look "right".
Kydex Sheaths, have the maker put mole skin at the opening and that will keep the blade from getting scratched by the sheath.
Now all that said...every knife has a flaw.
That being said, the price of the knife should be commensurate with the mistakes. Remember you are being paid for your mistakes which is the best way to learn. If you knife is suffering from "Gaposis" this term coined by DR. P Gill. That is the gap between your blade and guard...you don't get $500 for the knife. If you have Gaposis between your bolster and tang....you don't get $500 for your knife. I don't care who the maker is. Gaposis can also be diagnosed with regards to your handle material. Yes, a crack is considered a form of Gaposis, known as Venous Gaposis.
Iis too bad I can video the judging at some of the shows I judge at. That would be the only class a knife maker would need. Sometimes the judges are just totally stunned....like the 10" bladed Hunter!
Ok, that is enough of that.
Make the best knife you can, try improve on each one, then charge a fair price for the knife.
WWG
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2001
- Messages
- 12,336
Jeez, I have a number of egregious knives, as stated by WWG. Coming soon: My 'Graveyard Sale'... ! :thumbup: 
Good stuff. How many noob collectors will learn more from this thread?
Thanks, WWG.
Coop
Coming soon: My 'Graveyard Sale'... ! :thumbup: Good stuff. How many noob collectors will learn more from this thread?
Thanks, WWG.Coop
jdm61
itinerant metal pounder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2005
- Messages
- 47,357
okay....I'm confused. There have been a number of comments about brass and nickle silver. Brass I kinda understand what with the "brass has no class" thing....which I am not sure that I totally agree with, but i don't really use it anyway. I do use a lot of NS. Do these people want exclusively stainless fixtures or is 1018, etc ok too? I have a lot of 1018 and it may actually be easier to mill than NS in some ways. How hard is stainless to mild, grind, sand, file, etc?
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2001
- Messages
- 1,152
Good post, WWG.
I'd cut Dan some slack since he has 4 years of orders to get through and we don't want him burning out. Writing seems like a good way to unwind.
All this time I thought a "graveyard" knife was one you'd have to "pry from my cold dead hand"... Do you still get a royalty if it's used in the wrong context?
I want to add stock removal to my list but that's a pretty broad swath, I guess some exceptions could be made. Outsourced HT'ing though would be unacceptable.
I'd cut Dan some slack since he has 4 years of orders to get through and we don't want him burning out. Writing seems like a good way to unwind.
All this time I thought a "graveyard" knife was one you'd have to "pry from my cold dead hand"...
Do you still get a royalty if it's used in the wrong context? I want to add stock removal to my list but that's a pretty broad swath, I guess some exceptions could be made. Outsourced HT'ing though would be unacceptable.
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2001
- Messages
- 12,336
- Joined
- May 9, 2000
- Messages
- 29,205
Keith, please don't tell me you don't like Tim Hancock file work.
I just don't like filework period. Not saying it can't be beautifully done, but about the only filework I would possibly have on a knife is where it is used instead of a thumb ramp.
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2001
- Messages
- 1,152
Well, the forged aspect of knifemaking holds a lot of appeal for me so that is really what I collect. I'm not sure if Pearce forged or not but something unique like that would be an exception. The rest of the piece as a whole would have to be considered. I'm sure there are others but ATM I can only think of someone like Warenski for example.
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2005
- Messages
- 43
You guys have covered most of the issues and more than I could quickly think of, but I would add a couple. The original question was something about "what we would consider a deal breaker on a knife that originally appeared to be exactly what we wanted".
If I found ANYthing that was loose or rattlely when I handled thge knife. You can not always tell "tightness" from a photo or without handling the knife. I have found loose items on fixed blades and folders, custom made and cheaper. I like things to be TIGHT!
Also, I like symmetry. If the sides do not match, it disappoints me. This goes for handle slabs, grind lines, and everthing else.
One more thing that really turns me off is GAPS and poor fitting, but this can usually be seen without actually picking up the knife.
Mark
If I found ANYthing that was loose or rattlely when I handled thge knife. You can not always tell "tightness" from a photo or without handling the knife. I have found loose items on fixed blades and folders, custom made and cheaper. I like things to be TIGHT!
Also, I like symmetry. If the sides do not match, it disappoints me. This goes for handle slabs, grind lines, and everthing else.
One more thing that really turns me off is GAPS and poor fitting, but this can usually be seen without actually picking up the knife.
Mark
brightred
Gold Member
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2004
- Messages
- 473
sometimes a dealbreaker for internet buyers like me that hasn't been mentioned yet: knives that have been photographed by professionals. the pros are able to veil significant flaws like wrong proportions, irregular grind lines, irregular or low contrast on damascus, colours, scratches etc. sometimes it would be wise to ask the seller to take a sharp picture from a 90° angle in hard and direct sunlight or with a flash. these the-picture-doesn't-do-the-knife-justice-picutures can be worth a lot of saved dollars (or quite the opposite... just look at the crappy pictures randy morgan took and posted here. if the object on one of the pictures looks somehow similar to a knife, it must be a jewel...). coop: of course you are my favourite knife photographer! 
hans
hans
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2006
- Messages
- 16,703
I know I've already posted...but I just read through the thread again.
I think the vast majority of the points can be summarized just as WWG did above: F,F,F -- Fit, Finish, Flow.
If we understand one another on these three key points, then we've really made a difference with this thread.
Just my $0.02.
I think the vast majority of the points can be summarized just as WWG did above: F,F,F -- Fit, Finish, Flow.
If we understand one another on these three key points, then we've really made a difference with this thread.
Just my $0.02.
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2002
- Messages
- 13,348
I just about fell out of my chair laughing at this one.
I am seeing more and more of that. Or maybe I am slowly getting an idea of where the numbers should be.
Say WHAT??!!!
When I go Sasquatch hunting, I won't take anything smaller.
Roger