Dealbreakers

[Broos]

Thanks for all the enlightening comments, gentlemen. Great thread.

 

[Bruce Bump]

You guys have made me afraid to make another knife.

 

[Erik Fritz]

This is a great thread!!!!!! as a relatively new maker with a little over two years experience this has been very interesting. at Reno i got the first chance i have had to talk to collectors outside of the few that have bought my knives. I think that as knifemakers this is something we need to do more often. I have a chance quite often to goto other makers shops and get there ideas as to what i can do to improve my knife. one thing that i have noticed is that when i approach a maker he might see something in my knife that he would change that is what he would do to his knives. if that makes sense. at Reno i got a chance to talk to Steven and he gave me a whole new perspective on what to look for when i am finnishing a knife. the other thing i see is that as a maker there is no way i am going to be able to make a knife that appeals to every collector. any way thank you for this thread it is something that i think all new makers need to hear.

 

[RogerP]

You guys have made me afraid to make another knife.

You know Bruce, I was re-reading this thread thinking a maker is going to look at us collectively as a bunch of impossible to please nit-pickers. But Bruce Evans makes a good point about communication. The great thing about custom orders is the opportunity for maker and buyer to have a meeting of the minds before the hammer ever hits hot steel.

As for show knives - heck, you can't please everybody. But I would agree with Les that a knife with a 5" giraffe bone handle with mokume inlays, brass fittings and a 3" blade is going to sit a while waiting for that special someone.

Roger

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

This is a great thread. My list of grievances and lamentations will be forthcoming.

 

[jdm61]

You guys have made me afraid to make another knife.

I was already almost at that stage. I have been forging on and off since around March of '05 and have yet to try to sell a knife for fear of embarrasment and this thread just made it worse

 

[Les Robertson]

To the knife makers out there don't be afraid to make a knife. Just follow this guideline:

That being said, the price of the knife should be commensurate with the mistakes. Remember you are being paid for your mistakes which is the best way to learn.

All knives have mistakes, one of the goals of a knife maker should be to limit the amount and severity of the mistake(s).

Roger:

Thanks for the comments. I think more people are beginning to understand the makers position and the commensurate price that should be asked. That being said it is essential that the makers figure out their position in the market and understand how to price their knife. Too many rely on makers to give advice in this area. Especially those who have been making knives for decades.

First, the new maker doesn't understand he is asking his competition to price his knives. McDonald's never asks Wendy's what a price should be for their new chicken sandwich.

Second, value pricing will be essential in the coming decade for makers to be able to price their knife with several factors involved. Collectors are reading this thread and making notes....makers are responding that they are afraid to make knives. It is not that your knives are not worth anything, the question is are you providing a value price for the time, expertise, market position and materials used.

Example, every knife that a collector buys at a show is in a way a value. Most makers don't charge more for each of their knives even though there may be considerable expense in doing the show involved. Hell, every knife sold at either of the New York Shows should cost at least an extra $50.

Coop;

Your old school "I buy what I like". Collectors like you are the back bone of custom knives. If every buyer expected to buy a knife and have it at least hold their value, there would only be half the knife makers that there are now. Maybe less than that.

The only way to compete would be to offer same or similar quality for less money. Eventually the maker would work into the higher prices.

The plight of internet driven makers is raise fast, flatten out and drop like a marble off the end of the table. While the maker may not disappear, those using inflated internet prices to guide their retail pricing will find their prices maxed out. The value will be gone in the knife at that price, subsequently the after market price will drop (this usually happen before) to the point that collectors will be onto the new "Next" maker. At this point you may see the maker introduce "semi-custom" to offer a less expensive knife to compete in the market.

The custom knife market is very fluid and and always interesting.

WWG

 

[Kohai999]

Brass I kinda understand what with the "brass has no class" thing....which I am not sure that I totally agree with, but i don't really use it anyway. I do use a lot of NS. Do these people want exclusively stainless fixtures or is 1018, etc ok too? I have a lot of 1018 and it may actually be easier to mill than NS in some ways. How hard is stainless to mild, grind, sand, file, etc?

1. It really is not that "brass has no class". I hate that saying.

Polished brass is a sight to behold. Patina/oxidation on the brass, which occurs 2 minutes after you hold it in your hand, is one of the ugliest sights on the planet. If you like it "rusted", and think it has character, great. Most people who buy knives don't like it. 1018 would be ok with some degree of surface finishing(fire coloring/case coloring is good), but stainless steel would be an overall preference. There is also copper, phosphor or preferably silica bronze, damascus, and shakudo or shibuichi, japanese words for "really pretty when finished properly".

2. Nickel silver is white brass. I hear/have heard from a fair amount of makers that there is some that barely tarnishes, but have not seen it personally. Green is not a favorable color for handle metal.

3. Stainless is wonderful to mill, not so much fun to file, fairly easy to grind/finish, and is less "gummy" than brass or nickel silver. It is also more expensive than brass, I think, and when 416 is heat treated, it shows more oxidation resistance than just about any other material except gold.

I disagree with WWG about mokume, but that is a personal issue. Copper/Silver mokume is AWESOME, WWG just has not seen enough of it used on knives to love it the way that I do. Of course, Phillip Baldwin of Shining Wave Metals(a large supplier to the jewlery industry) is a close friend, and supplies me with material that I share with makers I work with. Have sold 6 pieces with this material, no complaints, no regrets.


Knife by Chuck Gedraitis. Worked with him on the project. Really like this one. Handle is African Blackwood, anodized, fileworked titanium liners, mokume bolsters.

Ivory micarta is an awesome material that gives some of the beauty of ivory, with none of the drawbacks, except that it is mostly plastic. I like the material.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Thor I am]

This is a great thread! I am not going to bother with my own list as it is included in multitude in others' comments.

I am going to toss out the ultimate deal breaker that has not been mentioned!

I think the knife is ugly.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and if I THINK, for whatever reason, that the design isn't pleasing to MY eye.
FORGET about the technical merit and the superb workmanship. My wallet stays closed.

I try really hard to only buy knives that I consider to be very beautiful.

This is my main driver as well.

NEVER USE BRASS.....EVER. I know it is soft, cheap and easy to work. Collectors don't want to have to clean their knife every 3 days.

...and I just think it doesn't look good (like a bad attempt at gold). :barf:

Although I am seeing and hearing the "I" word used more with regards to custom knives. Even though the majority of members of this particular sector of BF have presented viable arguments as to why the "I" word cannot be used. Makes you wonder how many "Graveyard" knives are in their collection.

Guilty as charged (as must be evident by agreeing with Peter about beauty - which is always in the "I" of the beholder). This of course also means that I must have a few "Graveyard" knives. Not a problem as long as I like them and am not interested in selling.

Engraved knives. Almost without exception this gives the next buyer a reason not to buy the knife.

I've gotta say, this one suprised me. I seem to see a lot of engraved SRJ and Loveless knives engraved. I don't think they sell any slower than the non-engraved kinds. And they do sell for more money. Most art knives are engraved and would likely not be right without it. Most high-end folders are engraved.

WWG,
Is this comment mainly with respect to forged knives of the bowie / fighter genre or is it supposed to be encompassing all of custom knives (and let's not get into a discussion of the term "custom" in this thread. PLEASE).

Thanks,
Thor

 

[Bruce Evans]

Nickel silver is not white Brass it is Nickel-Zinc-Copper and been used for over a hundred years on knives under the name German Silver....White Brass /White Bronze is a aluminum mix that melts almost as low as copper,it wont solder or it would get used more often as it stays silver color well also.You guys would be suprised how much White brass is used in casting fittings for knives and people think it is Nickel Silver.....You can get both from Jewlery suppliers and all over the web.

I have never seen NS turn green,but I guess if it was left against some acid tanned leather it might.

I have ti agree with Mr. Bump.....Now days I am also afraid to make a knife....Since being sick I know I make mistakes and am not at the level I was,but I have been told that is in my eyes only,But I have to think,should I let it outta the shop or not.If not I would have to just quit and that would drive me crazier than I am going now with as little shop time as I have been getting.


Bruce

 

[Jose Reyes]

Okay, maybe I'm missing something, but do you mean the "I" word as in "me" or does is stand for something else?

I have a piece of mokume by Mr. Baldwin that I think is just lovely. One of those aquisitions that just makes you giddy. It's just a blank right now but even still it looks great, IMO.

 

[Jose Reyes]

Nickel silver is not white Brass it is Nickel-Zinc-Copper and been used for over a hundred years on knives under the name German Silver....White Brass /White Bronze is a aluminum mix that melts almost as low as copper,it wont solder or it would get used more often as it stays silver color well also.You guys would be suprised how much White brass is used in casting fittings for knives and people think it is Nickel Silver.....You can get both from Jewlery suppliers and all over the web.

I have never seen NS turn green,but I guess if it was left against some acid tanned leather it might.

I have ti agree with Mr. Bump.....Now days I am also afraid to make a knife....Since being sick I know I make mistakes and am not at the level I was,but I have been told that is in my eyes only,But I have to think,should I let it outta the shop or not.If not I would have to just quit and that would drive me crazier than I am going now with as little shop time as I have been getting.


Bruce

I'm not a maker but I gotta think that you should just keep making each knife one at a time until you get back in the groove and continue to improve. As you gain experience and build a solid foundation then you can worry about all the nuances and how you can make them work harmoniously to your ideals or the customer's request. I think WWG said it all when he stated that each mistake is a learning curve and to just charge accordingly. You have a lot of talent so don't worry about it too much.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Engraved knives. Almost without exception this gives the next buyer a reason not to buy the knife.

WWG

Thor, I think (?) WWG was referring to buying engraved knives in general, not necessarily addressing higher end engraved pieces from makers such as Fisk, Dunn, SRJ and Loveless just to name a few. Collectors admire and seek engraved pieces form these makers and as you said expect to pay more for it.

 

[chickenfried]

A while back someone noted the opinions are coming from educated knife buyers. Well it's time for an uneducated one .

For me the #1 thing is that the proportions of the knife look right. I've seen a lot of knives where the size of one part stands out and IMHO that's a bad thing. Maybe it's a small knife with a huge handle or vice versa. Or a gigantic guard that ruins an otherwise great looking knife.

 

[Thor I am]

Okay, maybe I'm missing something, but do you mean the "I" word as in "me" or does is stand for something else?

I thought it means 'I as in me'. I might have misunderstood. The reason I think this is because I have heard a few comments that one ought to consider the knife's resale value when buying, even if the thought is to never let it go. The thought behind that is that one might get sick of it someday.

I think it is sound advice if one isn't very sure about the purchase. I think it helps to stop rash decisions. But if you purchase after careful consideration of your lasting enjoyment in the ownership and therefore isn't on impulse (like an order for example), I think the resale value is much less important. I also don't look at knives as investments per se even though some certainly are by default.

Thor, I think (?) WWG was referring to buying engraved knives in general, not necessarily addressing higher end engraved pieces from makers such as Fisk, Dunn, SRJ and Loveless just to name a few. Collectors admire and seek engraved pieces form these makers and as you said expect to pay more for it.

Kevin, that's why I asked the question. It seemed odd to me as the statement was rather global and not qualified to a specific segment (or leaving out some segments specifically).

 

[Les Robertson]

The big "Heyday" of engraving with regards to custom knives occurred mid-80's to early 90's. This was no more evident than on stainless steel interframe folders. To the point that the knife became merely a canvas for the engraver.

Prices in some cases quadrupled the price of the knife. As you can imagine, not one of those knives held their price. Barrett and Smythe had some of the most talented makers and engravers working for them. I remember some years back they were offering many of those knives at half-price just to move them. Most of the dealers I know had no interest in any of those knives. I was even called about taking some of those knives on consignment.

Engraving today is being used as more of an "accent" then anything else. Most makers if they are being honest will tell you that they are losing money by engraving the knife. Steve Dunn may be the exception to the rule.

From purely a sales perspective engraving adds to the sale price of the knife. So an expensive knife becomes even more expensive. This increase in price makes the market smaller for the sale or resale of the knife. Adding engraving further shrinks the market for the sale of the knife. While adding another possible objection to purchase that must be overcome. What if the new buyer doesn't like the "Vine and Roses" pattern. What if he only buys Winston Churchill engraving, etc.

Additionally the price increase added because of engraving will now give the buyer more options. Perhaps the carbon steel knife can now be a Damascus knife or added beautiful Fossil Walrus Ivory, etc.

The more expensive you make a knife the more buyer will consider having the maker "build something just for them". That way they can get exactly what they want.

Because you have reduced the number of potential buyers those collectors who will consider the knife and do take the "Investment" potential into account (and when you start talking about knives at $2,500 and up you at least have to consider this) will think just a little bit longer before buying the knife.

A direct purchase by a collector from a maker is different than a purchase in the after market. One view is that the collector is commissioning the knife he has always wanted. The buyer in the after market will more than likely have a different motivation.

My comments are with regards to all custom knives. Engraving should accent the knife and not overpower it. I am more of a knife purist, I would rather have my knives be a stand alone entity. As I have seen engraving and scrimshaw be used to cover up flaws on knives.

That being said, I am a sucker for Gold inlay on black or dark blued fittings. I had a Bowie made by Doug Casteel that I believe Mr. Newell can comment on. Blackened Damascus blade, blackened guard, ferrule and pommel with a black Jade handle. With Gold inlay and wire to accent the knife. A truly phenomenal knife.

STeven:

I stand by my comments on Mokume . We will have to agree to disagree.

WWG

 

[ptgdvc]

WWG's engraving analysis is right on target. Modest embellishments with in a generic design (leaves, scrolls, patterns) can serve to accent the beauty of the piece. However less is more! There is a tipping point where the more money that you invest in engraving, THE MORE YOU REDUCE THE VALUE of the knife, and LIMIT its appeal.

 

[Kevin Jones]

WWG's engraving analysis is right on target. Modest embellishments with in a generic design (leaves, scrolls, patterns) can serve to accent the beauty of the piece. However less is more! There is a tipping point where the more money that you invest in engraving, THE MORE YOU REDUCE THE VALUE of the knife, and LIMIT its appeal.

I agree to a certain extent. However I don't like to generalize or make blanket statements regarding knives. I think each knife or knife design needs to stand on its own merit. Just like the handle material thread where many were suggesting that "wood handles should never be used on high end knives". It depends on the high end knife.
I've seen folders that were fully engraved and looked quite nice where others should not have engraved at all.
In my opinion, many times tasteful engraving enhances a knife, adds value over and above the cost of the engraving and will help sell a knife.

The below may be examples.

Here are two pieces that has been posted in the gallery already, but, I just got these back in the mail from Mr. Bruce Shaw.

He knows exactly what to do to set a knife apart from others.

Check out the before and afters...

Fred Durio before:

Fred Durio after:

Ron Gaston before:

Ron Gaston after:

 

[Don Hanson III]

Okay, maybe I'm missing something, but do you mean the "I" word as in "me" or does is stand for something else?

I have a piece of mokume by Mr. Baldwin that I think is just lovely. One of those aquisitions that just makes you giddy. It's just a blank right now but even still it looks great, IMO.

Jose, I'm not a big fan of mokume but that is a good looking piece, I like the color.

 

[Kohai999]

In my opinion, many times tasteful engraving enhances a knife, adds value over and above the cost of the engraving and will help sell a knife.

I've got an example of support to ptgdvc and kevin's thoughts.

1. Have an older Warren Osborne knife. Highly desired maker, very, very good gents' pattern mid-lock, nice ironwood, but sort of boring, and he spot-welded the bolsters to the liners, which you could see in the right light. Got a SMOKIN' deal on the knife.

2. Had Julie Warenski do banknote scroll on the bolsters, with her gold beaded border. The spot welding marks are no longer visible. The knife is now all-around quite attractive, unique, and will sell in a New York minute for a decent profit. It is not for sale at this time.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson