Dealer discounts

Hi Roland,

You are welcome. Actually, what I wrote is not obvious to most. Took me awhile to learn the "ropes" especially with what goes on before the show.

You are correct most makers are not getting wealthy. As well most do the very best job they can every time they make a knife.

Whether you buy the knife directly from the maker or go through a dealer it really doesn't matter. As long as you are buying custom knives.

One thing I forgot to mention about makers working with dealers is that makers do receive orders from collectors after they see a knife on either a dealers table at a show or on their web site.

As well I know one maker who received 40 orders within two weeks after I wrote an article in Blade on him. Guess how much I received for all those orders...yep $0. He received his JS Stamp at the 2007 Blade Show and is on his way to getting his MS stamp!

Makers and dealers work as a team and success by either benefits both.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
Les, i meant no slight on custom knife dealers and through this thread can appreciate how they help knife makers (particularly, exposure and finances by buying the knives up front). now, if you could stock a few more traditional type folders,----- maybe i can get another knife from you ! hope you're smilin'. roland
 
I think that two very strong arguments can be made (not the only two, mind you) for using the services of a dealer, assuming said dealer actually wantrs to carry your stuff......I'm not there yet, but hope springs eternal..lol.
1. Even if you have your own web site, I gurantee you that, unless you are someone like Jerry Fisk, a dealer like Les has MANY more serious knife buyers visiting his site in a day than you have in a week or probably a month........or maybe a year. ;)
2. TIME is the enemy of the solo knifemaker. There isn't enough of it and if you have a dealer doing the leg work for you, then you have a little more time to make knives.
 
Hi Roland,

No offense taken or slight felt! :D Any thin skin I had was removed long ago!

Im working on the traditional folders. Tim Britton, TA Davison and Rick Nowland.

So make sure you visit every day! LOL

Hi Joe,

Excellent points...most makers find it is not money...it is time that they run out of first.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
Artisan Knives has a very unique and smart concept. It's valid. I like Ty Young, and he is a longtime professional photographer. We have talked many times in the past. It's obvious he can do some really nice work.

For only $100 he will place you in a Gallery as long as you supply him with quality photos. In the case of Owen Wood, I see one of my photos and one from Point Seven. Neither with credit attributed to the actual photographer. I am certainly not too keen on this. I will look into the why's and protocol tomorrow.

Use my images all you wish, as long as it was paid for by either the collector or maker, but not for free and NOT without proper credit. :grumpy:

This concept is not unique, though. The Knife Network also has a very similar deal for individuals. $100 for unlimited ads and for-sale postings.

Thanks for the reminders of how much time is involved in day-to-day transactions, Les. I have streamlined my photo production, yet THIS aspect is what prevents me from being even more productive. Arrivals, trips to shippers, Click-n-Ship, re-packaging, gazzilions of emails, etc. all take up valuable time. I need a helper.... :thumbup:

Coop

#### Edit: I just sent Ty a polite note. Now I see there are a bunch of my images on the site--some with credits, and some missing. An oversight I am certain. I am sure he'll get this right. :)
 
Artisan Knives has a very unique and smart concept. It's valid. I like Ty Young, and he is a longtime professional photographer. We have talked many times in the past. It's obvious he can do some really nice work.

For only $100 he will place you in a Gallery as long as you supply him with quality photos. In the case of Owen Wood, I see one of my photos and one from Point Seven. Neither with credit attributed to the actual photographer. I am certainly not too keen on this. I will look into the why's and protocol tomorrow.

Use my images all you wish, as long as it was paid for by either the collector or maker, but not for free and NOT without proper credit.
:grumpy:

This concept is not unique, though. The Knife Network also has a very similar deal for individuals. $100 for unlimited ads and for-sale postings.

Thanks for the reminders of how much time is involved in day-to-day transactions, Les. I have streamlined my photo production, yet THIS aspect is what prevents me from being even more productive. Arrivals, trips to shippers, Click-n-Ship, re-packaging, gazzilions of emails, etc. all take up valuable time. I need a helper.... :thumbup:

Coop

#### Edit: I just sent Ty a polite note. I am sure he'll get this right. :)

I have found that anything that's worthwhile takes time if you put the deserved effort into it.

Coop, you are very generous with your photos and the custom knife industry is better off for it. :thumbup:
 
Wow, what a great debate. Bottom line, as a maker, when you make a knife that you think is some of your best work yet, and you still have to sell it, the next best thing is a picture by a pro. You know who they are. With the average cost at $100 with Ty you the great picture plus for $25 more your knife is on his site for sale, that is a good deal, and you want the pro pic anyway.
 
I don't want to minimize the good work that Ty is doing. But I wish to clarify what a client gets from me for their $$$.

For $110 I will produce a single sideview of a knife ($150 for a multiple image), edit and print out actual quality paper prints, and ship the knife back to the client INSURED. This fee is included. BTW, my insurance will also cover the knife from the client to me, saving them costly extra shipping charges.

I will also print up all the information about this knife and the maker, attach it to the back of a 4x6" print, and mail the physical photo to (6) Editors of popular US knife magazines for their considerations. You can only imagine the time spent doing such. It's the iceberg under the tip in this business. ;)

I do not offer to sell a client's knife. That's what Ty is all about. But then again he does not state he will submit the maker's work to magazines, either. Both methods have validity.

Coop
 
This thread has really taken a life of it's own.

Coop,
I have wondered also, knife photos being freely used/shared, it seems like there could be some legal issues involved, using the photos as a part of a business venture without some form of consent.. i guess you must feel a little surprised where your photos turn up?

In the case of the website mentioned, do the knives remain in possession by the maker?, if so, how is this different from ebay, with better photos.. or is it mo re of an advertisement?

Why is "advertising" forbidden on this forum.. what exactly constitutes advertising?

Les,
Like an ant looking up and wondering about the huge world above, i have also been witness to the advantages dealers have finding a niche in the market and customer base. it's almost like magic,.. when the internet is this vast thing. People will pay retail, and pass on wholesale. I don't have the answers, but you have given me some ideas, its about security, trust, the knowledge you offer.. all the things you bring to the table. This makes sense. I understand i think.

Do you find yourself in competition with collectors, with some makers? ..if so, not giving away secrets, how do you keep an edge? And do Collector's have an edge on the knives off auctions and ebay for instance?

Can you say more about the "state of flux" you mentioned in your first post?
David
 
I don't want to minimize the good work that Ty is doing. But I wish to clarify what a client gets from me for their $$$.

For $110 I will produce a single sideview of a knife ($150 for a multiple image), edit and print out actual quality paper prints, and ship the knife back to the client INSURED. This fee is included. BTW, my insurance will also cover the knife from the client to me, saving them costly extra shipping charges.

I will also print up all the information about this knife and the maker, attach it to the back of a 4x6" print, and mail the physical photo to (6) Editors of popular US knife magazines for their considerations. You can only imagine the time spent doing such. It's the iceberg under the tip in this business. ;)

I do not offer to sell a client's knife. That's what Ty is all about. But then again he does not state he will submit the maker's work to magazines, either. Both methods have validity.

Coop

The service of sending the pics to the knife mags and books is one thing that i did not know about until recently. This strikes me as one very good reason (among others) to have your knives photographed by one of the small group of specialists like Coop.....aside from the pictures bein purty:D My own pics make my knives look like I hammered them out of an old rusty license plate and buffed them with a brick....lol
 
Hi David,

The state of "flux" in dealer discounts is occurring because makers are taking a little bit more of a business approach. This is especially true of those with web sites.

The dealer discount is now being looked at a little harder. When I talk with makers or do seminars for makers I tell them to ask the dealer what they are getting for their money...because that is what they are giving up.

Obviously the discount for a dealer who merely puts a photo on their site should not be as high as the dealer who puts you on their site and takes your knives to shows where they actually set up at. The latter saves the maker both time and money. The dealer who only attends and does not set up, does the maker little or no good, as they are their primarily to buy or trade knives. They may brown bag and sell a few outside the show...but that is not their main objective of attending a show.

My niche is that of an Entrepreneur not a dealer. To me there is a big difference. Dealers buy and resell. Entrepreneurs exploit or create opportunities I approach my business as just that a business. Perhaps the greatest advantage is to be able to spot "diamonds in the rough". Through years of refinement I can talk to a maker and in 5-10 minutes be able to tell you if the maker has the ability to be successful. Success being different things to different people. This "talk" will have little to do with the makers abilities. The skill(s) will come...it is the character of the maker that will, for the most part not change.

Initially as I wrote in my book there were 7 questions I asked makers to get a feel for their work. However, as I learned some difficult lessons, I realized that I was only asking questions about their skills...not their character.

Another advantage that I have is having been full time for the last 13 years. I spend my days...with rare exception almost every day of the year talking with collectors.

Collectors have more input than they realize. Listening to collectors Bob Neal and myself to form LDC Custom Knives. This resulted in the only 10 knife tactical folder sets to ever be offered as and sold as a set. As well we offered a set of 5 fixed blades...3 of which were featured on the Cover of Tactical Knives.

From the lessons I learned from that project I started Vanguard knives. To date 54 different exclusive designs have been made in different numbers. These knives have encompassed Folders, D/A Folders, Fighters, Sub-Hilt Fighters, Hunters, Survival Knives and utility knives. Each has completely sold out.

Entrepreneurs don't wait for the market to come to me...they create the market.

This is done through a combination of finding quality makers, who will take advice in design, material selections, marketing strategies and value pricing. Combined with my abilities to promote these makers through forums like this, my web site, setting up at shows, being interviewed and mentioning their names when the article subject is asking specifically for makers within the context of the article, and writing for the magazines.

There is no real secret. Dealers generally come from the collector ranks. They start with a very good knowledge of a specialty area or types of knives.

The difficulty is trying to move outside that area of expertise. Having put years into one type of knives or even two...now you are going to have to shorten the time on the learning curve and try to make as few mistakes as possible. Each mistake helps with the learning curve...but costs you money. Obviously unless you are independently wealthy or Mom and Dad are footing the billshould you want to move into a new area.

While I am known best for tactical knives (folders and fixed blades) and more recently forged blades. I still sell presentation folders, Damascus Folders, etc.

Where as my buddy Bob Neal is best known for folders, but has an excellent working knowledge of fixed blades. He too is very active in the forged blade market. Between the two of us we have almost 50 years experience in custom knives. As well we have been setting up next to each other for at least 18 years. So purely through talking with each other about knives for hours and hours, we have a pretty good idea of the folder and fixed blade market. We are very fortunate that we have each other to bounce ideas, market trends, makers to watch, materials to use, hot designs (before the become hot) etc.

Between the two of us there are very few questions we can't answer about a custom knife.

Bob in his own right is quite a force in custom knives. I always tell him he is the second best dealer I know. :D

Hope this answered your question. If not ask some more. The only secret is doing your home work...12 hour days, looking at a couple of million custom knives...and figuring out 98% of the time which ones you will be able to resell...for a profit.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
Hi David,

Missed one question.

In the general global business sense I am in competition with every person or company that sells a knife...no matter what outlet they use.

Having never sold factory knives. I have never been in direct competition with those dealers and factories that do sell factory knives.

I most definetly find myself in competition with collectors. As there a some makers who will actually sell a knife for full price to them instead of discounting the knife to me. This habit can be particularly annoying on the first day of a big knife show! :D

Collectors are the life blood of the custom knife market. They have given me more insight to custom knives than they will ever realize. As they will really examine a knife that they buy. Look at it over and over again. When they are at a show they will move from table to table, looking at each knife. Agonizing over how they will make their decision and then when they finally do they have a great sense of relief. And then they start all over again hunting for the next piece of their collection.

I will walk through the same show giving cursory glances at hundreds of knives looking for "certain things" that will lead me to stop and ask the maker about the knife. At some shows there are less than 10 knives that interest me...than at a show like the Blade Show... there will be hundreds. Sadly most will be sold directly to collectors. :D

What am I looking for? What the collectors have told me they want in countless conversations over 24 years.

Occasionally I will figure it out on my own.

Ebay, Blade Fourms and other Internet forums provide a great outlet for the collector. What used to take years to find out the collector can now find out in days...how much is the knife I want to sell worth?

The After Market is the true "learning ground" for the collector. Fortunately there is so much information available on the Internet, the learning curve shortens every year.

Most collectors still buy what they like. However, more and more are doing a little more "homework" before they buy a knife.

This goes back to the learning curve for the dealer, especially the new ones. Their knowledge will be put to the test every day. They will be expected to know about what they are talking about.

Collectors are so much better educated about custom knives these days, it is amazing. If you are set up at a show...you better bring your "A" game. As you will be challenged.

Man I love knife shows!

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
The service of sending the pics to the knife mags and books is one thing that i did not know about until recently. This strikes me as one very good reason (among others) to have your knives photographed by one of the small group of specialists like Coop.....aside from the pictures bein purty:D My own pics make my knives look like I hammered them out of an old rusty license plate and buffed them with a brick....lol

About half the knives that I have had Coop shoot have ended up in publications - mags, knife annuals, etc. While Coop has no control over what gets published, by providing a first rate photograph AND detailed info, he sure makes it easy for an editor to select one of his photos as representative of the subject matter of the article in question.

Roger
 
Perhaps i am too "Canadian", but when a knife maker quotes his price, i will either buy the knife or not. but i will not "make an offer". the knife maker knows how much expense, expertise and work went into the piece. to offer less, seems to me insulting. however, for some reason i do not feel the same way when dealing with a knife dealer. anybody else have this "double standard" ? roland
 
I buy direct from the maker and also, at times, from the dealer. As long as the price is within the same price range as the maker's, why not? Especially if it is THAT particular knife, at the dealer, that cranks my chain.

If it isn't good for the maker, the maker will stop or disappear. If it isn't good for the dealer, the dealer will stop or disappear. That's what a free market is all about.
 
Hi Roland,

First, let me say that having set up at 6 custom knife shows in Canada. I can assure you that your fellow countryman ask for a better price, while at the show.:D

The trend of asking for a discount is still alive and well, however it is slowing down a little.

This is due to the fact that so many sellers now have web sites. Consequently, there is no particular reason to lower the price (usually we are asked to discount on Sunday) as you can just take the knife home an put it on your web site.

When makers ask me if they should lower their prices I tell them in the long run it will hurt their sales.

1) if you lower the price, the collector will tell the rest of the community. This does 2 things:

A) When other collectors find out they will be upset that they paid full price.

B) This will set the new "market" price for that knife. Not what the maker or the collector wants.

2) My other comment is, if you will sell a knife for a particular price on Sunday...why not offer the knife for that price on Friday? This allows you to utilize "Value Pricing", possibly sell out and possibly pick up some orders. As well if you sell out that will encourage collectors to check out your knives either at shows or on a web site. Ever walk into a gas station and look at the lighters at the counter? There is never a full rack of them. Why? Because the owner knows that 70% of all consumers want to buy something that other people have already bought. The 10% who would buy the product initially are referred to as "early adopters"...the other 20%...will never buy the product.

When people ask me for a discount and I tell them no. Most will say "I had to ask". To which I respond "I understand and I had to say no". Which any one who has raised a couple kids knows that saying no, gets easier and easier. LOL :D

Roland it is your right as a consumer to get the best price you can.

Remember this...not every knife maker knows what their knives should sell for. Perhaps they are too high and will agree with your price. I think as long as you are making a reasonable offer you will not be insulting the maker...the dealer yes :D, the maker no.

Betzner hit the nail on the head. The custom knife market is part of a "Free Market economy. Ultimately it is the consumer who determines who stays in business and who goes out of business.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
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