Dealer discounts

RogerP said:
And your data to support your claim that his estimate is 10-15% too high can be found where?

Les has many years experience as a custom knife dealer is several areas of the market. He has many more years as a custom knife buyer. I would describe his 90% figure as very educated estimate that is very likely representative of the custom knife reality. Demanding supportive statistical data which you know very well does not exist is a red herring.

Creating a purely arbitrary (and itself undefinied) miminum standard of quality for a knife to be regarded as "custom" is a very transparent and circular means of supporting your claim that the figure is "too high".

Roger
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Roger, you again support my initial point as I do not state my estimate "AS FACT" as so often Les does. It's just my opinion. I also stated earlier that Les supplies figures/percentages based on experience and knowledge, however not substantiated/documented FACT. It would be good to get to level of documentation in this industry so we could have facts.

I'm not saying that Les is not "the man" as a matter of fact he has contributed much knowledge to this thread that will help many.

You should read all my post before entering and pouncing on me.
 
Knife Snobery ! i too visit custom knife sites regularly and the vast majority of knives (90% ?) are under $1000. i bought a neck knife from a maker in Idaho, forged from an old mine railroad spike. walnut handles, sharp, attractive, balanced visually and in hand, and with a fine custom sheath: $90! i like it so much i bought another with elk handles for my son.
i have 5 custom FB hunters, all under $500. all excellent knives, none are junk. in fact the one from Mike Wilson at $175 (BF purchase) is the least expensive, but i think i like it the best. my 2 T.A. Davison folders, both under $500, are absolutely right on excellent. and all the "Sebenza" style knives, most under $1000.
my point: i think it's a buyer's market; low price does not mean low quality; even with a $500 ceiling, there are 1000s of fine knives listed AND they sell, snap them up or the're gone.
if you focus on looking at the very top end of custom knives. you might miss the vast majority of customs flying under your radar. roland
 
RogerP said:
Near as I can figure, you're the only one who thinks that "custom knife maker" is actually a title implying a certain level of quality in the resulting product. Most regard it as simply descriptive of guys 'n gals who make knives. Your attitude toward those whom you describe as "hobbyist/tinkerers" strikes me as elitist, arrogant and condescending in the extreme.

I'll say it again - "custom" knives can be found at all levels of qaulity and are produced by "custom knifemakers" of variable levels of skill in varying quantities.

Roger
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So be it. Isn't it great that we can all have differnet opinions and ways of seeing things?

Roger, have you seen some of these knives that are being past off as custom knives at some of these gun shows and flea markets? I'm not talking about knives from the Geno Denning, Wayne Hendrix or Larry Pages of the world.

By the way do you consider yourself a custom knife maker?
 
Kevin Jones said:
Roger, you again support my initial point as I do not state my estimate "AS FACT" as so often Les does.
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I guess I missed where Les stated "This is a FACT!" I, for one, don't think that every time someone states an opnion they need to include "IMO" in their post. Then again, I'm not all about strict rules on what people should say and how they should think and what terms they may permissibly use.

I also don't see any equivlence between the validity of Les' estimate and yours. While neither are supported by vast reams of statistical date, ONE is supported by a couple decades of broad-based experience in the industry. Neither your experience, nor mine, nor a combnation of the two are remotely equivalent.

Roger
 
If one is focused on knives priced under $1000, one will see more of them.

If one is focused on knives priced over $1000, one will see more of them.

There isn't any proof either way but as Kevin said, look at the top dealer sites and get out your calculator.

Kevin, I have to say, Les is probably pretty close, when considering all handmade knives but I feel his 90% is just a bit high:)
 
Kevin Jones said:
So be it. Isn't it great that we can all have differnet opinions and ways of seeing things?
Click to expand...

Yep.

Kevin Jones said:
Roger, have you seen some of these knives that are being past off as custom knives at some of these gun shows and flea markets? I'm not talking about knives from the Geno Denning, Wayne Hendrix or Larry Pages of the world.
Click to expand...

I have seen plenty of crappy custom knives. They were crappy, but they were still custom knives.

Kevin Jones said:
By the way do you consider yourself a custom knife maker?
Click to expand...

That has been asked and answered.

Roger
 
Kevin,

I too am talking about custom knives, I have never bought a knife at a flea market so I will defer to your superior knowledge of that sector of the market. :D.....It's a Joke...Im laughing as I write this.....see the big SMILE :D

Kevin, you brought up after market price. I addressed that, I am refereing to the makers retail price. The after market can be very fickle, so that at best is a snapshot of the market at that time.

Kevin, you are a collector of a very small section of the custom knife market...the forged blade. Within that your sub-set is even smaller (amount of makers) and then you get to the sub-set of that sub set (type of knife) and you are an elite collector within those sub-sets of the very small section of the custom knives that make up the forged market.

I buy and resell custom knives, across all sectors of the custom knife market. It is my job...it is what I do all day every day. When I attend a show, I try to look at every knife. When I am at home I look at knives on the Internet. I watch the sale forums, to get a glimpse of what the after market is doing. But the absolute best information I get daily is from collectors. They tell me what they like, what they don't like, whose knives are hot, whose aren't, etc.

For the very high end forged blade market I value your opinion. As I know you do your homework for that market.

I can tell you with reasonable accuracy what the price range is for a particular market. This helps in determining what a makers position in that market will be. There will always be some makers who go above that price range, this is done for two reasons:

1) They are trying to get more money for their knives..."Don't Ask, You Don't Get".

2) They don't know how to price their knives for what they are at that particular time.

Imagine how many more knives would be sold if the maker actually knew how to price their knives with regards to their position in the market. Even Super Stars at what some consider a "Prestigious" show don't sell out.

All that said, I will still stick with my 90% number, even though I know it is merely an educated guess.

Kevin, question for you. With all the talk of a coming recession (albeit a short one) What affect to you think this actual or perceived recession will have on the sale of $1,000 plus knives?

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
rprocter said:
Knife Snobery ! i too visit custom knife sites regularly and the vast majority of knives (90% ?) are under $1000. i bought a neck knife from a maker in Idaho, forged from an old mine railroad spike. walnut handles, sharp, attractive, balanced visually and in hand, and with a fine custom sheath: $90! i like it so much i bought another with elk handles for my son.
i have 5 custom FB hunters, all under $500. all excellent knives, none are junk. in fact the one from Mike Wilson at $175 (BF purchase) is the least expensive, but i think i like it the best. my 2 T.A. Davison folders, both under $500, are absolutely right on excellent. and all the "Sebenza" style knives, most under $1000.
my point: i think it's a buyer's market; low price does not mean low quality; even with a $500 ceiling, there are 1000s of fine knives listed AND they sell, snap them up or the're gone.
if you focus on looking at the very top end of custom knives. you might miss the vast majority of customs flying under your radar. roland
Click to expand...

I have not said there are not good knives out there for good prices made by good and dedicated up and coming makers, just that there are lots of horrible examples and I don't put these so called custom makers or custom knives in the same category with the custom makers and custom knives we appreciate and enjoy every day.
Geno Denning for example, I don't know how many knives he is currently making, however I have seen some of his knives that are great examples at a great prices.
 
Kevin,

Since you are into statistical analysis.

Please provide us with yours that quantifies your number. I believe you were looking for reams and reams of statistical analysis?

Surely you aren't basing your percentage on merely your experience. You can include your spread sheet with the understanding this is only from one person in one sector collecting from a very very very small sample of the knives out there.

Remember Kevin we are talking world wide and yes even those crappy 200- $400 knives, like George Herron and his students have made over the last 40 + years.

Kevin, you probably didn't mean it that way, but it could be mistaken that you were regarding George Herron's knives as crappy. This would be a huge mistake.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
Lets look at Ebay as a microcosm.

There are 1878 custom fixed blade knives listed on Ebay. 21 are currently over $1000.

There are 928 custom folders listed
10 are over $1000 currently.


If we assume that only 50% are true handmade custom knives, the number of knives selling for over 1K is still way less than 5%.

I am making some assumptions here, but I would bet more like 98-99% of custom, handmade knives sell for less than $1000.
 
RogerP said:
I guess I missed where Les stated "This is a FACT!" I, for one, don't think that every time someone states an opnion they need to include "IMO" in their post. Then again, I'm not all about strict rules on what people should say and how they should think and what terms they may permissibly use.

I also don't see any equivlence between the validity of Les' estimate and yours. While neither are supported by vast reams of statistical date, ONE is supported by a couple decades of broad-based experience in the industry. Neither your experience, nor mine, nor a combnation of the two are remotely equivalent.

Roger
Click to expand...

Les is always throwing around figures. 100,000 custom knives made in a year, a new customer cost 20 times more that existing. He is probably very close to correct most of the time but an expert IMO has to be careful in distinguishing and presenting fact and opinion.

I agree, and have never implied that my knowledge even approaches Les. That would be observe, but then I'm entitled to my opinion and to challenged him as is everyone.
 
Les Robertson said:
Kevin,

I too am talking about custom knives, I have never bought a knife at a flea market so I will defer to your superior knowledge of that sector of the market. :D.....It's a Joke...Im laughing as I write this.....see the big SMILE :D

Les, you would be surprised at how many of my knives came from flea markets. ;):D :D :D Actually, when my wife and I travel say to Daytona Bike week, she has to go to the BIG flea market. If ever there go to the knives. :eek:

Kevin, you brought up after market price. I addressed that, I am refereing to the makers retail price. The after market can be very fickle, so that at best is a snapshot of the market at that time.

And perhaps that's where much of the 10%-15% difference of opinion we have is coming from. As I think "makers retail" is irrelevant and actual price paid is all that matters in the context of this discussion. So perhaps we are both right from the different angles we are approaching the issue.

Kevin, you are a collector of a very small section of the custom knife market...the forged blade. Within that your sub-set is even smaller (amount of makers) and then you get to the sub-set of that sub set (type of knife) and you are an elite collector within those sub-sets of the very small section of the custom knives that make up the forged market.

But Les please, even though my collection is focused there you know I follow and research a much broader market of custom knives. I would be surprised if you are insinuating that all I know is in my small collection focus.

I buy and resell custom knives, across all sectors of the custom knife market. It is my job...it is what I do all day every day. When I attend a show, I try to look at every knife. When I am at home I look at knives on the Internet. I watch the sale forums, to get a glimpse of what the after market is doing. But the absolute best information I get daily is from collectors. They tell me what they like, what they don't like, whose knives are hot, whose aren't, etc.

As I have stated several times here, I'm not questioning your knowledge or expertise of the market.

For the very high end forged blade market I value your opinion. As I know you do your homework for that market.

I can tell you with reasonable accuracy what the price range is for a particular market. This helps in determining what a makers position in that market will be. There will always be some makers who go above that price range, this is done for two reasons:

1) They are trying to get more money for their knives..."Don't Ask, You Don't Get".

2) They don't know how to price their knives for what they are at that particular time.

Imagine how many more knives would be sold if the maker actually knew how to price their knives with regards to their position in the market. Even Super Stars at what some consider a "Prestigious" show don't sell out.

All that said, I will still stick with my 90% number, even though I know it is merely an educated guess.

Kevin, question for you. With all the talk of a coming recession (albeit a short one) What affect to you think this actual or perceived recession will have on the sale of $1,000 plus knives?

I don't think you will agree here, but I believe it will have a negative effect as even though higher end collectors will still obviously be able to afford the higher end pieces, when they see a recession lower the value of their traditional investment portfolios (stocks/funds) their buying trends are affected.
Interesting though, I have found that collectible cars tend to advance in these down-turns as investors remove funds form more volatile investments such as stock and funds to invest in more tangible non-volatile items.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Click to expand...

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Bladeandbarrel said:
Lets look at Ebay as a microcosm.

There are 1878 custom fixed blade knives listed on Ebay. 21 are currently over $1000.

There are 928 custom folders listed
10 are over $1000 currently.


If we assume that only 50% are true handmade custom knives, the number of knives selling for over 1K is still way less than 5%.

I am making some assumptions here, but I would bet more like 98-99% of custom, handmade knives sell for less than $1000.
Click to expand...

Anthony, everyone knows that most sellers will list lower end knives on ebay more so than higher end. Your analogy proves nothing.
 
Les Robertson said:
Kevin,

Since you are into statistical analysis.

Please provide us with yours that quantifies your number. I believe you were looking for reams and reams of statistical analysis?

Surely you aren't basing your percentage on merely your experience. You can include your spread sheet with the understanding this is only from one person in one sector collecting from a very very very small sample of the knives out there.

Les, my figures are based on my opinion only, you are the one that threw the 90% out there like it was documented fact.

Remember Kevin we are talking world wide and yes even those crappy 200- $400 knives, like George Herron and his students have made over the last 40 + years.

Kevin, you probably didn't mean it that way, but it could be mistaken that you were regarding George Herron's knives as crappy. This would be a huge mistake.

Read above Les, I addressed what type of makers I was refering to not George Herron and the like that have and had been providing great knives at great values for many years.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Click to expand...
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Dealer discount = zero. Why should I give my profits to someone else? It's not as though I had a warehouse full of knives I needed to move and all I had to do was go in back and grab a pallet full of knives.

Now if someone, anyone, wants to buy four or more knives in one transaction, then we can talk about a discount. Nothing special to someone just because they call themselves a "dealer".
 
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