Les, that is a GREAT response. puts a smile on my face AND teaches me something. (that for a known respected maker, the asking price (maker or dealer) is pretty well right on "market value". so, pay up or shut up. (my words to myself). i can live by that ! roland
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Dealer discounts
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Les, you were on a roll here, But 90% of customs worldwide under $1,000 (including custom folders)?
Man, you just pull percentages and figures out of the sky. Put an IMO to that or document it.
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Maybe more than 90%.
Ever go to a gun show, Kevin? The big (250 table) gun show that comes every quarter to my area has at least 6-10 tables of handmade knives ranging from $90-$450 with the average table with over 20 knives on top. Those are handmade, "Custom" knives too made by custom knife makers.
SC is an anomaly as this is the heart of knife country, but there are almost ZERO $1000+ knives at the same show. One purveyor sets up with a mix of Randalls, Reeve's and "good stuff". He sells more Randalls and guns than anything else.
Ever go to a gun show, Kevin? The big (250 table) gun show that comes every quarter to my area has at least 6-10 tables of handmade knives ranging from $90-$450 with the average table with over 20 knives on top. Those are handmade, "Custom" knives too made by custom knife makers.
SC is an anomaly as this is the heart of knife country, but there are almost ZERO $1000+ knives at the same show. One purveyor sets up with a mix of Randalls, Reeve's and "good stuff". He sells more Randalls and guns than anything else.
Les Robertson
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Hi David,
The email notification I received had this in it:
David, you are working in a little talked about area when it comes to the "business" of custom knives. Why a maker gives a 40% discount to two dealers? I knew of one guy who was offering this. First, I give him credit for understanding the "Dealer" mind. A 40% discount will turn some heads.
Usually the reason for the 40% is that the knives are middle of the road and for the most part would only interest 3rd or 4th echelon dealers (note I said dealers and not custom knife dealers). They like this aspect of the knife in that if it doesn't sell for full price they can kick it to the "sale" page and lower the price and sill make 20%.
Note you will never see a "Sale" page on top echelon dealers site...never.
The only reason for a "Sale" page is that the dealer didn't know what they were doing and bought the wrong knife. Almost without exception this dealer is not a custom knife dealer as you will also see factory knives and other items for sale on the site.
Why your friend paid $3,000 for a chopper and the dealer got it for $800? Could be numerous reasons. You don't say how much bigger the chopper was nor do you discuss materials used to make the knife. That alone could make the difference.
The reason your friend paid $3,000, is primarily because he had not done his homework and/or paid a premium for an in demand knife. Either way it is your friend who is at fault. As Im sure the maker did not hold a gun to your friends head to buy the knife.
As well the maker could have owed the dealer money and gave him a break on the knife. Or it could be an "old" order at a less expensive price, or, or, or.
When you are paying $3,000 for a knife...you better know why. As in Why is it priced at that price? Again...homework involved.
Custom Knives more like used cars...no. Your friend wanted the knife...had the money....and bought the knife.
The person to ask is the Maker.
Remember I told you previously that people like to point the finger at the dealer...getting the good knives before the show, getting a deal at the show, etc. Fact is and always will be...nothing happens until the maker decides to sell the knife. Only he or she can determine when, where, why and for how much.
And so it goes.
Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robetsoncustomcutlery.com
The email notification I received had this in it:
David, you are working in a little talked about area when it comes to the "business" of custom knives. Why a maker gives a 40% discount to two dealers? I knew of one guy who was offering this. First, I give him credit for understanding the "Dealer" mind. A 40% discount will turn some heads.
Usually the reason for the 40% is that the knives are middle of the road and for the most part would only interest 3rd or 4th echelon dealers (note I said dealers and not custom knife dealers). They like this aspect of the knife in that if it doesn't sell for full price they can kick it to the "sale" page and lower the price and sill make 20%.
Note you will never see a "Sale" page on top echelon dealers site...never.
The only reason for a "Sale" page is that the dealer didn't know what they were doing and bought the wrong knife. Almost without exception this dealer is not a custom knife dealer as you will also see factory knives and other items for sale on the site.
Why your friend paid $3,000 for a chopper and the dealer got it for $800? Could be numerous reasons. You don't say how much bigger the chopper was nor do you discuss materials used to make the knife. That alone could make the difference.
The reason your friend paid $3,000, is primarily because he had not done his homework and/or paid a premium for an in demand knife. Either way it is your friend who is at fault. As Im sure the maker did not hold a gun to your friends head to buy the knife.
As well the maker could have owed the dealer money and gave him a break on the knife. Or it could be an "old" order at a less expensive price, or, or, or.
When you are paying $3,000 for a knife...you better know why. As in Why is it priced at that price? Again...homework involved.
Custom Knives more like used cars...no. Your friend wanted the knife...had the money....and bought the knife.
The person to ask is the Maker.
Remember I told you previously that people like to point the finger at the dealer...getting the good knives before the show, getting a deal at the show, etc. Fact is and always will be...nothing happens until the maker decides to sell the knife. Only he or she can determine when, where, why and for how much.
And so it goes.
Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robetsoncustomcutlery.com
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I have been to Gun Shows, and many of these so called "Custom Knives"($50-$200) are that you are counting in the 90% are the equivalent of my going out in my garage throwing a knife together from materials on hand. I have a stricter standard for what I consider a legitimate custom or handmade knife. Ever been to the super flea market in Daytona Beach? If you also want to include the $40-$75 "custom knives" they sell there you can probably get that percentage to 99%.
Les Robertson
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Hi Kevin,
Anthony is probably right, it is more than 90% I was just being generous with that number.
Ok Kevin, Im going to give you 80% of the knives that still means that if 100,000 custom knives are made every year...that 20,000 of them sell at retail for $1,000 or more each. Over the course of 10 years that would be 200,000 $1000+ knives made in that time frame. Over the last 24 years that would mean there are almost 1/2 a million $1,000 knives in the world.
Remember, about 70% of all those Loveless knives out there originally sold for under $1,000. Many of the Morans also sold for less than $1,000.
Now Im talking maker retail price...not some of those with hefty after market prices.
Boguszewski
Onion
Mayo
Emerson
Carson
Most of these makers works are selling for well over $1,000...but that is not retail.
Lake
Walker
Every knife is well over $1,000...but they only build maybe 20 a year between them
Now compare that to any two of the makers above. Hell, pick one maker. Now multiply that for at least 15 years.
On the ABS Side of the house...how many makers can actually command $1,000 for a knife...now compare that to every maker who can't.
Hancock, Feugen, Fogg, Newton and maybe 15 more in the entire ABS consistently sell each knife for $1,000 +. At this price range how many knives do they make a year? Most of these will have to have some Damascus and possibly some engraving. Which will cut into the amount of knives a smith can forge.
Lets say there are 100 members of the ABS who can get $1,000 or more on every knife they make. I believe Burt posted on the CKCA email that there were some 1,600 members. Lets say 300 of those are "associate" type members. That means only 8% of the knives being sold by ABS makers are $1,000 plus. Again, I believe the 100 members who can get $1,000 for each knife is a little high.
If you took every high end collector world wide and put added up their knives that they bought that originally retailed for over $1,000. I doubt you would come up with 10,000 knives.
Kevin there is no definitive documentation to prove that 90% of all the knives over the last 20 years sold for under $1,000. But using statistical analysis with a +/- of 3% I would have to say I am very close with the 90% figure.
There is a reason that for sheer numbers Saturn will outsell Porsche every year.
Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Anthony is probably right, it is more than 90% I was just being generous with that number.
Ok Kevin, Im going to give you 80% of the knives that still means that if 100,000 custom knives are made every year...that 20,000 of them sell at retail for $1,000 or more each. Over the course of 10 years that would be 200,000 $1000+ knives made in that time frame. Over the last 24 years that would mean there are almost 1/2 a million $1,000 knives in the world.
Remember, about 70% of all those Loveless knives out there originally sold for under $1,000. Many of the Morans also sold for less than $1,000.
Now Im talking maker retail price...not some of those with hefty after market prices.
Boguszewski
Onion
Mayo
Emerson
Carson
Most of these makers works are selling for well over $1,000...but that is not retail.
Lake
Walker
Every knife is well over $1,000...but they only build maybe 20 a year between them
Now compare that to any two of the makers above. Hell, pick one maker. Now multiply that for at least 15 years.
On the ABS Side of the house...how many makers can actually command $1,000 for a knife...now compare that to every maker who can't.
Hancock, Feugen, Fogg, Newton and maybe 15 more in the entire ABS consistently sell each knife for $1,000 +. At this price range how many knives do they make a year? Most of these will have to have some Damascus and possibly some engraving. Which will cut into the amount of knives a smith can forge.
Lets say there are 100 members of the ABS who can get $1,000 or more on every knife they make. I believe Burt posted on the CKCA email that there were some 1,600 members. Lets say 300 of those are "associate" type members. That means only 8% of the knives being sold by ABS makers are $1,000 plus. Again, I believe the 100 members who can get $1,000 for each knife is a little high.
If you took every high end collector world wide and put added up their knives that they bought that originally retailed for over $1,000. I doubt you would come up with 10,000 knives.
Kevin there is no definitive documentation to prove that 90% of all the knives over the last 20 years sold for under $1,000. But using statistical analysis with a +/- of 3% I would have to say I am very close with the 90% figure.
There is a reason that for sheer numbers Saturn will outsell Porsche every year.
Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
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Les, I'm not addressing maker retail, and not knives made/sold over the last 20 years, I'm simply referring to what collectors are currently paying for today's legitimate custom/handmade knives including folders.
The only price that's relevant is the dollar amount that changes hand, hefty aftermarket price or not.
And as I said, that's not counting the so called "customs" you find at gun shows and flea markets all over the country. I quality custom knives as a minimum quality and design as a collector would find displayed at typical knife shows or a typical dealer would offer for sale.
Now if you and Antony put that number up around the $1500-$2000, rather than a $1000 I would not be questioning it.
There are a LOT of custom knives being sold today on the primary and secondary in the $1000-$1200 range.
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Les, you were on a roll here, But 90% of customs worldwide under $1,000 (including custom folders)?
Man, you just pull percentages and figures out of the sky. Put an IMO to that or document it.
Les, the point I was making in my above post is that we don't have the data in this industry as is available in other collectible medium. For example, in collectible Corvettes, there's data stating quantity of models produced, quantity still in existence, last sold, last sale price, options available, option percentages, in fact about anything a collector would need to know is available. The same information is readily available for many other collectibles.
When experts such as yourself, quote sale figures, percentages and such in regard to custom knives many take that information as fact, when in reality it's just a very educated guess or assumption.
That's one thing I hope the CKCA can accomplish over the next 5-10 years is to create a data base for gathering, tracking, storing and distributing this type of data for the benefit of collectors and makers.
I understand Tim Hancock touched on this a few years ago.
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90% of the handmade knives at the Blade show are under $1000.
Without question. I think you are forgetting that handmade does not equal fancy.
FYI, I rarely pay over $1000 for a knife. I think you would find my Fisk, Dean, Newton,Crowell, Massey, Knight, Potier, JM Smith, Andrews etc etc etc to be custom knives.
Without question. I think you are forgetting that handmade does not equal fancy.
FYI, I rarely pay over $1000 for a knife. I think you would find my Fisk, Dean, Newton,Crowell, Massey, Knight, Potier, JM Smith, Andrews etc etc etc to be custom knives.
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In SC, Geno Denning, Wayne Hendrix, Larry Page and many others make Herron style knives for $200 range and under. They are all handmade, custom knives. There are many other makers that do this as well. Hunters like handmade knives but around here they don't like to pay much.
Most of George Herron's hunting knives were in the $400 range.
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That is an odd definition of "custom" knives, to say the least. Custom knives come in all levels of quality - as variable as the maker's skill level. Bottom rung custom knives are still custom knives (assuming we're NOT talking about factory knives being falsely peddled as "custom" - and you don't have to go to a flea market to find those).
I have never before heard of a "minimum standard of quality" for a knife to be regarded as "custom" - nor do I think such a concept is either workable or meaningful.
Not that I'm particulary interested in a tedious debate about definitions, or anything.
Roger
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What IS the definition of IS? 
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How could I forget that Anthony, as you remind me in my most every post.
Anthony it's probably common knowledge to folks here that I perfer embellished knives (engraving, inlay, damascus) that lend a degree of uniqueness and challenge the maker to enlist many of his artistic talents, and you like the very plain. Nothings wrong with either philosophy.
Of course I would fine your Fisk, Dean's etc. purchased for under $1000 custom knives, however I don't find many of the low-end so called "customs" you find at the gun shows or flea markets "customs" yet you and Les use them in validating your un-substantiated 90% of all custom are under $1000.
The fact that you rarely pay over a thousand for a knife perhaps indicates that you are not as aware of the market over $1000 as someone who researches/buys/invest in that market regularly. I draw my information and opinions (yes, opinions as I qualify the figures/percentages that I state as opinions, not fact) from examining about a dozen dealer sites on a daily basis.
Les is of course, is very knowledgeable in the over $1000 market but I disagree with his 90% figure for two reasons. One I think it's 10-15% too high and another is that he represented it as fact when there's do data to back it up.
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My point "IS" Roger, that I don't wish to insult legitimate custom/handmade knife makers by identifying them in the same group as hobbyist/tinkerers that throw a rough "custom/handmade" knife together on a Friday night to sell at a gun show or flea market on Saturday. IMO, hobbyist/tinkerer need to learn/ earn what "custom knife" implies to many of us.
And your post supports my initial point in that if there is no agreed upon definition as to a custom/handmade knife, how can anyone state that 90% of all customs sell for under $1000?
In addition, MY (what I use) definition as to what qualifies as a custom knife has nothing to do with how fancy or embellished a knife is but only quality.
As I stated earlier, I could go to my garage and throw together a rough custom/handmade knife with equipment and materials on hand and I agree that by strictest definition would be considered a custom/handmade knife, however should I represent it as such or should it be used in a calculation to determining what % of all custom knives fall under $1000. I think not.
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And your data to support your claim that his estimate is 10-15% too high can be found where?
Les has many years experience as a custom knife dealer is several areas of the market. He has many more years as a custom knife buyer. I would describe his 90% figure as very educated estimate that is very likely representative of the custom knife reality. Demanding supportive statistical data which you know very well does not exist is a red herring.
Creating a purely arbitrary (and itself undefinied) miminum standard of quality for a knife to be regarded as "custom" is a very transparent and circular means of supporting your claim that the figure is "too high".
Roger
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Near as I can figure, you're the only one who thinks that "custom knife maker" is actually a title implying a certain level of quality in the resulting product. Most regard it as simply descriptive of guys 'n gals who make knives. Your attitude toward those whom you describe as "hobbyist/tinkerers" strikes me as elitist, arrogant and condescending in the extreme.
I'll say it again - "custom" knives can be found at all levels of qaulity and are produced by "custom knifemakers" of variable levels of skill in varying quantities.
Roger