Dealer discounts

Les Robertson said:
HI Kevin,

I see Rogers point. I give a 90% figure and because I don't have reams and reams of statistical analysis I don't know what I am talking about...it's a guess at best. A guess?? Ok, technically since I had no supporting documentation it is a guess.

When I ask you for your reams and reams of statistical analysis you don't answer the question. You side step it an add something else like including "after market" sales figures in your analysis. So when those prices fall through the floor a year or two from now...will you adjust your number closer to mine?

Ok, so your number is a "guess" and my number is a "guess". Taking into amount of knives bought and sold, number of shows attended, number of years looking at knives, number of knives looked at, number of conversations about custom knives, which guess...with no supporting documentation, do you think is better? :D

Les Robertson
Custom Knife "Guesser"
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
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Les Robertson said:
Hi Roland:

Don't buy into that. 90% of the custom knives sold world wide are $1,000 or less.
Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
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How many times do I have to repeat this in this thread today.

MY ORIGINAL AND CURRENT POINT THAT STARTED ALL THIS HAS BEEN THAT YOU CONSISTENTLY TOSS OUT STATEMENTS, FIGURES AND PERCENTAGES (LIKE THE ONE ABOVE) AS THEY ARE DOCUMENTED FACTS, WHICH THEY ARE NOT. THEY ARE EDUCATED OPINION AND ASSUMPTIONS BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE, WHICH I USUALLY AGREE WITH. IN MY OPINION WHEN THERE IS NO SUBSTANTIATED DATA, WHICH THERE IS VERY LITTLE OF IN THE CUSTOM KNIFE INDUSTRY THE EXPERT SHOULD QUALIFY HIS OPINIONS, FIGURES AND PERCENTAGES AS EDUCATED OPINIONS.

I HAVE ALSO SAID SEVERAL TIMES THAT I DO NOT CLAIM TO EVEN APPROACH YOUR KNOWLEDGE ON CUSTOM KNIVES, HOWEVER IF MY OPINION OR GUESS IS THAT YOUR 90% IS HIGH I WILL SAY SO.
 
Les Robertson said:
Hi Kevin,

It's only fair, you don't answer my questions. :D

I was speaking about a maker whose knives you in your collection...not one of your current knives in your collection.

For further clarification I was speaking to a Texas knife maker at that SOS Show last September about the very issue I wrote about.

My point to mentioning this was that you have to take into account retail prices..not a "Fishing" price. I suspect that this is part of the reason this particular dealer does not have a trade in policy.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
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Didn't know I had not answered your questions?
 
Les Robertson said:
Hi Kevin,

It's only fair, you don't answer my questions. :D
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You too? I'm still waiting for the statistics to back up Kevin's factual assertions about E-bay (think I'm in for a long wait), and also an answer to the question about whether he thinks the stock on Bladegallery and Knifeart are reflective of the custom knife industry as a whole.

Roger
 
RogerP said:
You too? I'm still waiting for the statistics to back up Kevin's factual assertions about E-bay (think I'm in for a long wait), and also an answer to the question about whether he thinks the stock on Bladegallery and Knifeart are reflective of the custom knife industry as a whole.

Roger
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Roger, Blade Gallery and Knife art, two of the most successful and respected custom knife dealer sites owned by two of the most knowledgeable experts on custom knives, are obviously more reflective of the custom knife market/industry than eBay. I expect that only you, Anthony, and severthumbs needs statistics to support that.

When one gives an opinion, I don't see where there's the necessity to give statistics or back-up as it's just their gut feelings or opinion. Now IMO, when an expert states percentages as fact as Les did above, then they should have data/statistics to back-up their facts.
I'm just a collector trying to assist in moving the custom knife industry forward, not an expert.

When you want to ask me productive questions that add to the good discussion here, rather than just asking to belittle me than I will answer them.

Roger, you are making yourself look silly here.
 
Bladeandbarrel said:
Where do most collectors sell their $1000 knives?

If its not Ebay
And its not the forums

Where?

In brown bags at shows?

Back to dealers ? Nordic Knives? Custom Knife Consignment?

Kevin did not agree that 90% of the custom knife market was sub-1K.
I, and others think his position is incorrect.

It seems as if Kevin needs to walk the Blade show this year and peek outside the ABS section. The overwhelming, vast majority of custom, handmade knives at the Blade Show (Where most of the top makers all convene so the sample is also skewed...) are sub 1K.
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Since we're expected to answer all questions here:D

Anthony, I'm not sure where all collectors sell their higher end Knives. In my 15+ years of doing shows (avg 5 per year), I have seen many knives traded and sold to dealers. I have witnessed several $100,000+ deals (multiple knives) between collectors and dealers. For around 8 years, I sold most of my output to 7 or 8 dealers and followed their inventory very close, these guys moved a whole lot of $1000+ knives, most well over $2000.

I get a few emails every month from dealers, asking what the price should be of one of my older knives that they just bought or traded for, they are always over $1000. This tells me that a lot of higher ends knives are changing hands that most are unaware of.

I also don't know of any makers whose knives are priced over $1000 selling on ebay.

I may be completely wrong about ebay but I just see many more lower end knives there than higher end.

Like I said before, we are going to notice and be more aware of the knives we are focused on, be it 'higher end' or 'lower end'. ;)
 
Kevin Jones said:
Roger, Blade Gallery and Knife art, two of the most successful and respected custom knife dealer sites owned by two of the most knowledgeable experts on custom knives, are obviously more reflective of the custom knife market/industry than eBay. I expect that only you, Anthony, and severthumbs needs statistics to support that.

When one gives an opinion, I don't see where there's the necessity to give statistics or back-up as it's just their gut feelings or opinion. Now IMO, when an expert states percentages as fact as Les did above, then they should have data/statistics to back-up their facts.
I'm just a collector trying to assist in moving the custom knife industry forward, not an expert.

When you want to ask me productive questions that add to the good discussion here, rather than just asking to belittle me than I will answer them.

Roger, you are making yourself look silly here.
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Well, you're wrong, but that would be an answer to the question "Which is more reflective of the custom knife industry as a whole - E-bay or Knifeart? Which would be cool and all if that was what I asked. But it wasn't. This would be one of the side-steps I think Les was talking about. After all, YOU were the one making pronouncements about how people should NOT make factual statements without the proof to back them up. I see you don't hold yourself to the standards you would impose on others.

And I see you're back to the insults - well, you're nothing if not predictable. Next come the lawyer jokes, right?

Roger
 
I would agree with Les about the $1000 comment, but then again, this may raise that ugly question of WHAT constitutes as custom knife? I know that the forums do not define the entire custom market, nor does Ebay. But if you look at piece volume as opposed to dollar volume, I would speculate that Les' figure might be a little bit low, especially considering the growth that the custom knife "game" (as opposed to true business) has experienced. BUT many of the "gamers" or pure hobbyists sell their knives. Look at all of the new makers like me you see just on the forums. Think about all of the folks that are making tacticals and simple user outdoor knives. I did a rather non-scientific experiment. I looked at the "A' listings in the makers section of Knives 2008. Of the 50 makers listed, a few did not have a price range and others had ranges that said "starts at". Many of the starts at guys had low prices of $250 and such. Only nine of the 50 said that their knives had a top end price of over $1000 and some of them said that the "top" was $1200 or maybe $1500. Being generous in my unscientific examination, that means that 18% of the makers in the A section can make you some kind of knife for over $1000. Even if you take those guys into account, what percentage of their sales are going to be closer to $1200-1500 as opposed to their low number, be it $250, $500, etc? And these are guys who have been playing the game long enough and seriously enough to know to get their names in the Knives annual. I have been playing around with knives on and off since 2005 and have yet to appear in one of them except as being listed as a member of the FKA in the 2007 and 2008 editions and I'm sure that is the case for a lot of guys on the "low end" of the custom biz. Kevin asked which website is more reflective of the custom knife business. I guess that depends on how broadly you define that business.
 
Another thing I have found interesting over the years. I've heard from most top dealers (not all) that knives in the $700 to $1500 range are hard to sell and knives below or above move much quicker. Kind of a dead zone in the price scale. Now I have sold many knives in this price range without problem, so I'm just quoting what I've heard repeatedly. These same dealers have also said, knives over $2000 sell best for them.

Interesting!
 
Don Hanson III said:
Another thing I have found interesting over the years. I've heard from most top dealers (not all) that knives in the $700 to $1500 range are hard to sell and knives below or above move much quicker. Kind of a dead zone in the price scale. Now I have sold many knives in this price range without problem, so I'm just quoting what I've heard repeatedly. These same dealers have also said, knives over $2000 sell best for them.

Interesting!
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I'm not surprised about the $2k+ thing because knife dealers have a "captive" audience of serious collectors looking for knives like that. It is kind of funny that knives priced in the $700-1500 range can, at the same time, be considered too extravagant and too pedestrian:D
 
Can we f...ing move on? Some with tremendous experience think the number is 90%, others with respectable experience think it's 75%-80%. Can we just all agree that at least 3/4 of the custom knife production is below $1,000 and pick up the conversation where we friggin' dropped it? How old are you guys? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

As a side note, we all know that eBay is good for turning over low price knives, or heavily discounted higher priced ones. Similarly, the good online shops have cost structures that make it harder for them to profitably trade low price knives (the cost of 1 picture, or of taking 1 knife to a show, is the same for any knife, etc).
 
Joss said:
Can we f...ing move on? Some with tremendous experience think the number is 90%, others with respectable experience think it's 75%-80%. Can we just all agree that at least 3/4 of the custom knife production is below $1,000 and pick up the conversation where we friggin' dropped it?
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Sure - where was that again? :)

Roger
 
Don Hanson III said:
I guess Blade mag should interview ebay sellers for Custom knife articles, instead of Custom knife dealers ;) :D
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Oh, come now Mr. Hanson. Be nice. You have freely admitted that you were a "volume producer" at one point before you discovered your true calling in the knife game:D
 
jdm61 said:
Oh, come now Mr. Hanson. Be nice. You have freely admitted that you were a "volume producer" at one point before you discovered your true calling in the knife game:D
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:D Yes Joe, I've made many more knives under $1000 than over. It's all good, I'm just having fun here :p I'm not the serious type, life's too short :D
 
Don Hanson III said:
:D Yes Joe, I've made many more knives under $1000 than over. It's all good, I'm just having fun here :p I'm not the serious type, life's too short :D
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I recalled you saying that you knocked out close to 500 knives one year when you were making those sub-$1k users.....lol. Thats about 10 times what you do now, right?:eek:
 
jdm61 said:
I recalled you saying that you knocked out close to 500 knives one year when you were making those sub-$1k users.....lol. Thats about 10 times what you do now, right?:eek:
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Yep, Joe, you're right. I'm not knocking the 'under $1000' knives or makers. We need them!!! :)
I made a $250 damascus hunter two weeks ago :p
 
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