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severed, ever considered contributing something worthwhile, productive or positive on this forum rather than always being negative and trying to beat people down?
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severed, ever considered contributing something worthwhile, productive or positive on this forum rather than always being negative and trying to beat people down?
Les Robertson
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Hi Kevin,
At first glance you I can see where you might be correct. Now factor in the retail prices of those knives. Now factor in consignment knives (what were the retail prices on those knives).
Now another factor...dealers only buy knives from about 20% of the makers out there.
Consequently the sample you took would be skewed in favor of higher priced knives (based primarily on demand).
Well my feelings are hurt I that I didn't get mentioned. Thought I was one of the leading Custom Knife Purveyors. Or was it that the majority of the knives on my site are under $1,000. As such my site would not support the theory.
Kevin, one other thing to consider is that some of those knives have been on one of those sites so long, makers are asking my advice as to how to approach the dealer and have them removed. One of them is a mainstay of your collection.
Lots of variables Kevin...lots of variables!
Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
At first glance you I can see where you might be correct. Now factor in the retail prices of those knives. Now factor in consignment knives (what were the retail prices on those knives).
Now another factor...dealers only buy knives from about 20% of the makers out there.
Consequently the sample you took would be skewed in favor of higher priced knives (based primarily on demand).
Well my feelings are hurt I that I didn't get mentioned. Thought I was one of the leading Custom Knife Purveyors. Or was it that the majority of the knives on my site are under $1,000. As such my site would not support the theory.
Kevin, one other thing to consider is that some of those knives have been on one of those sites so long, makers are asking my advice as to how to approach the dealer and have them removed. One of them is a mainstay of your collection.
Lots of variables Kevin...lots of variables!
Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
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Don, there are a TON and I mean a TON of makers out there that Bladegallery and Knifeart would never touch. They are not "names". Some may well be what Kevin disparagingly labels as "tinkerers". Do you think those makers, as a group, largely make knives over or under $1k?
Roger
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I just said it was a good place to start. I would guess (as others are doing here) that the number is closer to 90% than 60%.
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No one ever said Ebay was the best place to sell, Don, just the biggest.
It is much more representative of the market than a few select websites.
More sellers, makers, and buyers participate on ebay selling custom knives than all other knife seller's websites combined. I would say that the sample in this case is meaningful. If you think this is picking on Kevin, you are mistaken. Just an attempt at clarifying the market for everyones benefit. Keep in mind that Ebay has 3,000 custom knives on the site now...with many times that amount being sold over a one year period.
If you go back to the Bladeforums FS Area over the last 5 years I bet you will find a similar average price per custom knife to Ebay....Maybe a bit more as this website attracts more aficionados, but still very, very few pieces over
$1K.
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I always suggest to makers in this case that they buy their knives back from the dealer (at retail) and resell them to collectors who have been patiently waiting for one of their knives. I am not sure why this never happens?
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*********************Hi Kevin,
At first glance you I can see where you might be correct. Now factor in the retail prices of those knives. Now factor in consignment knives (what were the retail prices on those knives).
Now another factor...dealers only buy knives from about 20% of the makers out there.
Consequently the sample you took would be skewed in favor of higher priced knives (based primarily on demand).
Less, I not saying those sites totally support my theory, but they are sure a much better measure than ebay.
Well my feelings are hurt I that I didn't get mentioned. Thought I was one of the leading Custom Knife Purveyors. Or was it that the majority of the knives on my site are under $1,000. As such my site would not support the theory.
No Les, it's as I said, those two sites have a sort inventory by price function. So I was able to pull that information in about 12 minutes. It would take an hour or better to go threw your site. I would bet money though that if I polled the top 12 purveyor sites 10 would be consistence with around 60% of knives listed under $1000.
Kevin, one other thing to consider is that some of those knives have been on one of those sites so long, makers are asking my advice as to how to approach the dealer and have them removed. One of them is a mainstay of your collection.
What do you mean in regard to a mainstay of my collection? Don't beleive any knives in my collection were purchased from either purveyor or any of my past knives are currently on either site.
Lots of variables Kevin...lots of variables!
Yep Les, lots of variables. Thanks for presenting your post in a mature manner.
Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
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Bladeandbarrel, As I said before, Ebay is not the best place for knives over $1000. Most makers/collectors selling over $1000 look else where. I am aware that ebay is the largest but not for the higher end. Like Les said, "lots of variables"
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I agree that 60% is too low, my GUESS would be 75% to 80%. And that is based on actual dollars that change hands, not maker retail.
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Where do most collectors sell their $1000 knives?
If its not Ebay
And its not the forums
Where?
In brown bags at shows?
Back to dealers ? Nordic Knives? Custom Knife Consignment?
Kevin did not agree that 90% of the custom knife market was sub-1K.
I, and others think his position is incorrect.
It seems as if Kevin needs to walk the Blade show this year and peek outside the ABS section. The overwhelming, vast majority of custom, handmade knives at the Blade Show (Where most of the top makers all convene so the sample is also skewed...) are sub 1K.
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Anthony, I walk the entire Blade Show several times every year. Come to a collecting seminar and you will find out where collectors can sell knives.
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I'd love to be able to do as Don suggests and check the prices of makers website but a major mistake in marketing continually attibuted to makers is that they just DON"T put prices on knives. Sometimes even those for sale and generally not on those sold.
Many dealers sites do not have sale prices either so it is always difficult to check.
EBay does of course sell very few knives over $1k. Depending upon the makers however, many knives over $1k do sell very well as can be witnessed by D knives and McBurnette knives. Once above that level, sales drop drastically.
However, I did find a site where in the past couple weeks 165 "new" listings have been made for knives. Now I did not break this down to sales but rather being offered.
Less than or equal to $1k = 124 or 75%
Over $1k = 38 or 23%
There were 3 (actually 4 but I knew the price of one) that the prices had been removed.
This is from a full time dealer with not only online presense but also storefront. How many of each sale? I'm sure the seller keeps track of that.
Now of course if required, I could check out how many actual sales were made in each level but I think the idea is clear. Now these sales are rapid sales.
We all know that Don Guild deals in much higher level sales and his are rapid also. I have watched some dealer sites and find that knives in the higher end stay longer but seem to go at some point.
Someone might do a survey on knife sales in BF Exchange>Custom Individual to see the ratio of $1k to over $1k.
Whether Les's figure of 90% or Kevins of 75% is more accurate, is not overly significant except to understand that there is a lot more of amarket in the lower end knives just as there is a bigger market in non forged blade knives which is another on going discussion.
I just hope that collectors of knives in any price range will enjoy their collections and will continue to show us those collections and as their disposable income increase enjoy the opportunity of purchasing more knives and enjoy their hobby/investment (lol).
Many dealers sites do not have sale prices either so it is always difficult to check.
EBay does of course sell very few knives over $1k. Depending upon the makers however, many knives over $1k do sell very well as can be witnessed by D knives and McBurnette knives. Once above that level, sales drop drastically.
However, I did find a site where in the past couple weeks 165 "new" listings have been made for knives. Now I did not break this down to sales but rather being offered.
Less than or equal to $1k = 124 or 75%
Over $1k = 38 or 23%
There were 3 (actually 4 but I knew the price of one) that the prices had been removed.
This is from a full time dealer with not only online presense but also storefront. How many of each sale? I'm sure the seller keeps track of that.
Now of course if required, I could check out how many actual sales were made in each level but I think the idea is clear. Now these sales are rapid sales.
We all know that Don Guild deals in much higher level sales and his are rapid also. I have watched some dealer sites and find that knives in the higher end stay longer but seem to go at some point.
Someone might do a survey on knife sales in BF Exchange>Custom Individual to see the ratio of $1k to over $1k.
Whether Les's figure of 90% or Kevins of 75% is more accurate, is not overly significant except to understand that there is a lot more of amarket in the lower end knives just as there is a bigger market in non forged blade knives which is another on going discussion.
I just hope that collectors of knives in any price range will enjoy their collections and will continue to show us those collections and as their disposable income increase enjoy the opportunity of purchasing more knives and enjoy their hobby/investment (lol).
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Roger, why would I dispute that the overwhelming vast majority of customs at the Blade Show are under $1000? I'm sure they are.
I haven't disputed that the overwhelming majority of customs knives in general are priced under $1000. I just dispute the 90% the was presented as fact when it's just an educated guess. Just as my 75%-80% is just an educated guess.
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Seems like a lot of Sturm und Drang - not to mention chastising others for failing to provide statistical support - all in aid of challenging an estimate that you think may be off by as little as 10%. Wow. Just, wow.
Roger
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Actually Roger, IMO there's been some good productive discussion here regarding ebay knife sales, knife pricing, particularly the ratios of purveyor of price mix etc.
Sorry you seem so bothered by it all.
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very very disturbing, this is just my educated guess.
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Les, you never answered my question regarding the above.
Les Robertson
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HI Kevin,
I see Rogers point. I give a 90% figure and because I don't have reams and reams of statistical analysis I don't know what I am talking about...it's a guess at best. A guess?? Ok, technically since I had no supporting documentation it is a guess.
When I ask you for your reams and reams of statistical analysis you don't answer the question. You side step it an add something else like including "after market" sales figures in your analysis. So when those prices fall through the floor a year or two from now...will you adjust your number closer to mine?
Ok, so your number is a "guess" and my number is a "guess". Taking into amount of knives bought and sold, number of shows attended, number of years looking at knives, number of knives looked at, number of conversations about custom knives, which guess...with no supporting documentation, do you think is better?
Les Robertson
Custom Knife "Guesser"
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
I see Rogers point. I give a 90% figure and because I don't have reams and reams of statistical analysis I don't know what I am talking about...it's a guess at best. A guess?? Ok, technically since I had no supporting documentation it is a guess.
When I ask you for your reams and reams of statistical analysis you don't answer the question. You side step it an add something else like including "after market" sales figures in your analysis. So when those prices fall through the floor a year or two from now...will you adjust your number closer to mine?
Ok, so your number is a "guess" and my number is a "guess". Taking into amount of knives bought and sold, number of shows attended, number of years looking at knives, number of knives looked at, number of conversations about custom knives, which guess...with no supporting documentation, do you think is better?
Les Robertson
Custom Knife "Guesser"
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Les Robertson
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Hi Kevin,
It's only fair, you don't answer my questions.
I was speaking about a maker whose knives you in your collection...not one of your current knives in your collection.
For further clarification I was speaking to a Texas knife maker at that SOS Show last September about the very issue I wrote about.
My point to mentioning this was that you have to take into account retail prices..not a "Fishing" price. I suspect that this is part of the reason this particular dealer does not have a trade in policy.
Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
It's only fair, you don't answer my questions.
I was speaking about a maker whose knives you in your collection...not one of your current knives in your collection.
For further clarification I was speaking to a Texas knife maker at that SOS Show last September about the very issue I wrote about.
My point to mentioning this was that you have to take into account retail prices..not a "Fishing" price. I suspect that this is part of the reason this particular dealer does not have a trade in policy.
Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com