Dealers only discussion and deleting posts...

[Marion David Poff]

In the thread:

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/004674.html

A couple of issues were raised that I think we need to openly discuss and in so doing
exemplify the theme of "All Topics Open for Discussion"

My belief is that moving this thread to another part of the Forum is a very effective way to "sweep it under the rug".

Now I understand that personal attacks and foul language are unacceptable, and I trust my fellow BladeForums member to post apropriately.

1)Mike Turber, owner and administrator said:

You can discuss this issue but if you
are a dealer please keep specific dealer issues out of this particular forum. You can of course use the dealer forum for that.

Why is there this "dealers only info" policy?

In the past I have asked this question and I have been given the run around, this time I
would like someone to explain this.

I spoke to the owner of a knife company three days ago and we candidly discussed the pricing of knives and so forth. Did he break some unwritten code, do the business practices of the knife industry contain methods which are unethical, immoral or somehow inapropriate? And if they are completely above board, why the secrecy?

This secretive attitude disturbs me deeply, is there a scab covering something?

2) Kevin Schlossberg aka Spark, administrator said:

I'm debating whether to keep this thread open, or move it to the automatic forum, or delete it entirely

Kevin, this had nothing to do with anything else, and I am not singling you out, this just reminds of days gone by, at least here it is openly discussed as opposed to threads just disappearing.

What is the policy/gidelines for deleting a thread? I remember when this forum
started, it was billed as an open forum. Where we could discuss anything
related to knives, as long as there was no foul language and no personal attacks. What
happened?

-------------------
As you can tell from the tone of my post, I am very, very disturbed about this. But, let me be clear....

I am implying or inferring nothing, I simply ask that someone step up and answer the
questions in a reasonable and logical manner. Maybe, like in the past I have missed something.

------------------
Marion David Poff aka Eye, one can msg me at mdpoff@hotmail.com If I fail to check back with this thread and you want some info, email me.

My site is at: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Meadows/1770 Including my review of the Kasper AFCK, thougths on the AFCK and interview of Bob Kasper.

 

[Chefget]

Gosh, Spark just had to deal with the Les thing...

Give the guy a break, eh! Let's talk about knives!

-Michael
(Damn, I just appreciate BF being here!)

 

[Spark]

No, that's fine Michael, people will always ask for justification.

I feel that the post from Microtech Spy didn't fit correctly into any one category. At the same time, it pretty obviously was looking to start controversy and contained controversial matter, as James said, it's a highly flammable subject. Just by posting it here, it could be said that someone was looking to start an anti-MT flame war, but I'm hoping this was more of a whistle blower situation than anything else. If it was a flame starter, I wanted to nip it in the bud before anything started, but at the same time, I didn't want to censor a topic which, quite frankly is worthy of being discussed.

As for why there is a seperate section for Dealer/Distributor/ Manufacturer info, it's because there are some things that should not be in the public eye. Wholesale prices, manufacturer's pricing policies, dealer / manufacturers relations, how to handle certain customer situations, etc. It's not a matter of creating any elites or upperclass, it's a matter of keeping things so that business can survive. When you go to Circuit City, they don't have big signs up saying how much it cost them for a TV,and they don't show what agreements they had to sign with a manufacturer because it's part of their business and they are better served by selling you their product.

It's one thing to speak one on one with the owner of a company about pricing. It's another to air such issues in a public forum and invite debate, putting them under the microscope for their methods. Especially when you have people ready to scream "BOYCOTT!" at the top of their lungs at the slightest matter.

As such, we had to create an area where the business people could discuss their business and handle their problems without being subjected to unfair scrutiny and politics by being in the public eye.

Anyhow, I hope this clears this up, and feel free to ask for further clarification. We're always happy to give more information, we just want to make sure that you understand that sometimes we have to make decisions that you may not agree with.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here

 

[Mike Turber]

I will expalin further when I get back from the Jaguars game.

The only thing I do not want discussed is particular pricing issues (what dealers actually pay) and Microtech's Dealer agreement (which is very touchy ground right now for legal reasons).

However if you want a no holds barred "brew ha" I can supply it, but it will turn really damn nasty real quick and that will get us nowhere.

So I will explain further after the game as to what exactly it was I meant.



------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com

 

[brian w edginton]

I have no problem with a special dealer forum. It is a little provocative at a superficial level.....something like private boxes at the football full of stuffed shirts making fun of the people in the bleachers

Maybe it shouldn't stand out like a country outhouse.....

But I can see the need within the industry and I am sure Mike will point that out.

Censoring posts is another thing. Of course, it has to be done sometimes. But I think we ALL have to stick to the guidelines...including those with censorship responsibilities. What I think I mean is that moderators should only use their power in clearcut cases of breaches of clear rules.
Maybe the rules have to shift from time to time....but changes should be made public.

Frankly, I have not seen a case of unreasonable censorship here....but let us talk about it openly so that we all are on the same train.

This is a great place and my recent, extended absence made me appreciate that. This post is in the spirit of fellowship
and is not intended to admonish anyone.
Keep up the good work everybody...

------------------
Brian W E
ICQ #21525343
Money : spend it before it's all gone

 

[Mike Turber]

OK back from the game.

I may or may not bring this issue fully out in the public. The next week will tell me what to do and we will see. However I made a few suggestions on how we can help a manufacturer keep their prices up which is the goal of Microtech. Here is what I said in a recent post on the dealer forum.

Well this is part II of a very interesting problem.

The problem is that Internet dealers are selling items at price points that are too low by the standards set by the manufacturer. Manufacturers have what is known as MSRP prices, which is a completely arbitrary number set by the manufacturer to set the value they believe their product should get in the market. It is also based on the manufacturing cost and it must allow them to sell at a profit. This is why manufactures go to shows to get feedback on their products. They tell you how much the product will be and then they are very interested in whether or not you think the price is right. The general rule of thumb is that wholesale prices are normally 50% off MSRP. In our industry that is the norm.

Manufactures are taking heat from the storefront dealers who can not compete with the low overhead and prices offered by many Internet dealers who sell items at 25% or less over cost. Over the last ten years they have had a similar problems with mail order companies like SMKW, Bud K, CTD and others. SMKW being the biggest and the most prolific at products pricing too cheap. The reason why I bring up SMKW is that they are building a web site so look out!

Now a new breed of dealer is out there lurking in the shadows ready to snatch up your customers. The discount Internet dealer, who can spring up over night, and operate freely at low profit margins. They operate under different marketing principals than those who run a storefront or mail order business. This is what makes the Internet so attractive for them. They do not need more than $500 to start their business and they actually do not need any inventory!

These dealers simply take orders and then order the product from their supplier. As their business grows they will be able to stock a few of the best sellers. If you look at their sites you will see mostly a glorified price list or graphics stolen from the manufacturers site. Very few deep discount dealers actually have a very well laid out site as it would require more time and better software which all cost money and that contributes to higher prices.

A few have obviously worked this scenario out for a good while and they have become good at it.

So what goes on in the mind of the discount Internet dealer?
Well think of it from this standpoint. You have a job and you make about $24,000 a year. You like knives and see an opportunity to sell some on the net to supplement your income. You contact a few suppliers simply by calling them off their ad in Blade or TK or whatever. You get their catalog and find out their minimum order is only $100 or so. In some cases this is only 1 knife! You have an Internet service provider who will give you 10 megs of space on their server, which is PLENTY! You then build a web site using FREE software. You learn how to code meta tags so you get found in the search engines and then you just sit back and wait. You have a job so even if you get only a few orders a week your happy. An extra couple hundred bucks when your only making five hundred is a lot!

You realize your site is not as pretty as others and you have no real store or anything else really going for you so the only thing you have to offer is price. Obviously it works or we would not be talking about it so much. This dealer after 6 months is now making more from selling knives on the net than he does at his "REAL" job so he quits and does this full time. Now he is really making an impact because he is answering the phone, now he makes enough to get an 800 number, he buys better software, scanner or digital camera to make his site look better. He is now investing a lot of his time in the business. He is now doing $20,000 a month in sales off the net. At a 25% profit margin he is now making a gross profit of $5,000 a month. Now the manufacturers want this dealer to raise his prices. Well you can't just do that as this guy feels that the low prices is what is getting him business in the first place. He has nothing else to offer but his low prices. He feels that if he raises his prices he will go out of business or at the least lose money and sales. He is very happy with what he is doing, how much he is making and to him it appears as though someone is imposing rules which he feels do not apply to him. Also he could really care less about a manufacturers wishes.


This is sad because the dealer could actually make more money. Convincing him of such is going to be a chore. Dealers like Fred at Knife Outlet have already figured it out and are now happy with the idea of raising prices. I have talked to dealers till I am blue in the face and I can't convince all of them to change their prices. I need something more substantial to offer them and I will get into that later. The argument I give the dealer is that it makes no difference how many knives you sell. What makes the difference is how much money goes into your pocket! I would much rather sell 10 knives with a $70 profit than 100 knives with a $7 profit. The same amount of money goes into my pocket and I work a whole lot less.

The MAAP programs, currently out from several manufacturers, do not work, will not work and will never work with the above minded individual. I have talked to dealers and even dealers who do not buy from me about this program and they laugh at it. And yes I mean they actually chuckle. I am not saying this as a slap in the face of the manufacturers but it is a "I TOLD YOU SO".

Anyone who wishes to do business or control business on the net needs to get a real quick education on the net and understand that the Internet dealers that discount heavily are not motivated by the same things that a store front owner is. If you want them to work with you then you better be ready to offer them something in return. And before you argue the point that what you are offering them is more money in their pocket forget it. Again this type of logic will not work on them as each time you try to convince them to raise their price they will see it only as a way to lose money. So you will need to come in from a different angle.

So what can a manufacturer do to get the Internet dealers in line?

Well it is not as simple as you might think. Cutting off a dealer who is dealing direct with you is a lot easier to do than cutting off a dealer who is buying through a distributor. In fact you could get into some legal problems by doing so in either case.

The laws are very clear here but how they are enforced is very vague. I won't go into the legal aspect of the current MAAP programs other than to say the following.

You can not tell a dealer to change his pricing on a web site. The web site is private property and an extension of the dealer’s store. You can control the minimum allowed advertised price but not the price that appears on a web site. A web site is NOT a form of advertising. I believe the manufacturers did not take this into account when making their pricing policies. Now if the dealer sends out an unsolicited email, makes a post on a forum which is NOT owned by them, or whatever means they have to actively leave their domain to promote their product then you have a case. As a side note, an auction is 100% exempt from this.

So what needs to be done is an entirely new MAAP program which is included into an authorized dealer program and NOT a separate policy. For a separate policy to work your company would have to be 100% dealer direct to be able to enforce a MAAP program. Also you can not punish someone in any way for not following a policy which they have not signed or agreed to by placing an order direct with you. Buying though a distributor releases the dealer of any responsibility to abide by a manufacturers policies. Any attempts to enforce a policy on a dealer buying through a distributor would be hard to do and may be illegal. If you do so, you would leave yourself open to legal action on the part of the dealer and the dealer would have a very good case. Also if you give a distributor your program and they publish it for you in their literature you are not out of the woods. This becomes a third party agreement and is not enforceable in most all cases.


So basically you can not punish a dealer who does not abide by your policy as long as they buy through a distributor. You can however reward dealers who do follow your pricing policies and programs and this is the main reason why my program will work.

Here is the basic outline of my program.

To become an authorized dealer the dealer would need to apply directly to the manufacturer. A simple form would be filled out and the manufacturer would require that certain criteria be meet by the dealer. Once that criteria is met then the manufacturer would issue the dealer a number. The dealer would not be required to buy from the manufacturer. Once the dealer is considered authorized the manufacturer would then be required to give the dealer several incentives to implement the program the manufacturer has laid out to promote it’s products. It is a simple rule being used here. To get someone to do what you want them to do you must reward them for following your wishes. As stated above you can not just tell them to follow your instructions or you will cut them off. This is called “management by intimidation” and it does not work. It works on kids but not adults and in some cases it will backfire if you use it. The dealer, in some extreme cases will then sell items even cheaper simply because you pissed them off. I have already seen this occur and a quick look at a Blade magazine will show who got pissed off when a manufacturer called them and told them to raise prices. This is obviously an immature response but it proves that the system does not work.

Here are some more specifics on what an authorized dealer program, which includes a minimum pricing policy, would look like. The policy would be for all dealers but since we are focusing on Internet dealers I will keep the focus on them.

After the dealer is approved, and he gets his number, the manufacturer is to send them a welcome kit of sorts. In it will be a disk containing copyrighted pictures and logos for the dealer to use on their web site. Also the disk will contain several example HTML coded pages to show the dealer the proper way to display their products. The manufacturer can also make a secret download section on their site for this. Dealers who just throw up a price list will not be allowed to be an authorized dealer and they must conform to the manufacturer’s guidelines for images and page layout within a specified time. Now what I mean here is that the images must be a certain resolution and certain text must accompany the image to promote that product. If your site uses ASP or templates or something similar for page layout you must include at least those two things. Dealers who have their own images can continue to do so as long as they meet the guideline set by the manufacturer.

Also on the disk will be your authorized dealer logo. This is to be displayed on your web site along with your authorized dealer number. The dealer number will help prevent the stealing of the logo. If a certain number does not accompany the logo then chances are the dealer is bogus. Also a quick call to the manufacturer can verify any dealer info or a visit to their web site.

The manufacturer is to make a links page on their site showing all authorized dealers with their corresponding dealer number. This would also show local store front dealers and dealers with web sites would be linked.

Authorized dealers get new product first. This will help keep prices up for at least a good period of time before the unauthorized dealers get them. Authorized dealers will be able to get these products directly from the manufacturer only. Distributors will just have to wait until ALL the orders for authorized dealers are filled. Distributors will not like this part but they are in effect a part of the problem and there would be no way to control a product once it gets to them. Also it would be a nightmare to arrange shipments to authorized dealers only on new products through distribution. This also allows the manufacturer to make a few more points on the bottom line, as the dealers would pay regular wholesale. The monies from this would help the manufacturer in paying for the tooling for the new product faster and in turn this would mean more new and better products.


Authorized dealers would periodically receive freebies from the manufacturer like shirts, hats, extra catalogs and other stuff. Storefront dealers would get POP material as well.

Authorized dealers would be able to get in on special sales the manufacturer may have on closeout merchandise. Also a manufacturer could have a factory-authorized sale that only authorized dealers could participate in and use special graphics.

Authorized dealers would get special limited runs on knives.

Authorized dealers would get a model(s) which are only available through authorized dealers.

Authorized dealers would get access to special programs that the manufacturer comes up with.

Dealers who do not follow the pricing guidelines, set forth by the manufacturer, would simply lose their authorized status and they would have to remove all pictures, text and their authorized dealer logo from their site within a specified time.

The dealer, in signing the agreement, is now receiving services from the manufacturer and this gives the manufacturer more leeway in controlling prices that the dealer lists on their site. The manufacturer is then assured that the authorized dealers are not only advertising and listing at the prices they specified, but that the product information, going out to the consumer, is exactly as intended by the manufacturer.

There are more details than I am releasing here and these details will only be shared with the manufacturer as they involve the legal aspects of this type of agreement.

It will not solve the problem but it will motivate the people who sell to cheap to become an authorized dealer.

Like I said before you will never solve this problem 100% so get used to it but at least this is a proactive way to handle it and not a reactive way to deal with it. When hit with a price-matching situation, you as a dealer, can simply say that the other dealer is not an authorized dealer. This gives you ammunition when a customer wants you to price match. You may still need to match the price to get the deal but at least you have more ammo to help you keep your price up.

Will this work?

Part of the above will work but for the most part it will not. This problem will not go away.

In the particular case of Microtech and it's pricing policy you, the Consumer, ELU, whatever, should be concerned.

YOU ARE BEING SCREWED!

The manipulation of pricing is what I am talking about and I can make this a very long post if you want but I will break it up in parts and make it public as this issue plays out.

Valmet made some very good points in his post. He may not know the inside scoop or even be aware of the actual law but rest assured I am and if push comes to shove I will do what is right and above all what is legal.

My key word here folks is LEGAL!

Before I continue the next few parts to this issue I suggest each of you who wish to respond to this or any other thread on the subject read the LAWS on the issue.

Follow these links. www.ftc.gov/bc/mission.htm
www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/15/ch2.html

The simple part of the above is that price fixing is not legal.

Is Microtech price fixing?
Well part two of my post will give you the evidence and the law and you can decide.
Simply put though it is not legal for a manufacturer to tell a dealer or distributor that they can sell a product only at a price determined by the manufacturer. They can create a policy which states they my not advertise certain prices and even this is grey area. But a manufacturer can not say what the final price to the consumer must be and this is where Microtech may have crossed the line.


More on the above to follow.

Also for all concerned a website is not a form of advertising. It is private property and a dealer can place any item they want on their web site at any price they wish. A manufacturer can not dictate the price shown on any web site period.

So read all you can on the subject. Visit the FTC's web site and educate yourself and let's talk about this. Manufacturers are welcome to chime in.

The bottom line is this. Part of the main focus of the US's economy is our Fair Trade and the ability of a highly competitive market. It also has very specific laws to govern this type of trade. Be very careful when you try to manipulate prices.

For the record I have already talked to Microtech about their pricing policy and I have already told them that in my opinion it is not legal.

May the game begin!

[This message has been edited by Mike Turber (edited 12 September 1999).]

 

[brian w edginton]

Mike
thanks for filling us in on that stuff...it is always fascinating to get a peek behind the scenes.

But you did not address Marion's issues . Was that an oversight ?
Your reply was,IMO, a great response to the original post in the MT message list.
Marion was concerned about the concept of a dealer-only forum and the idea of censorship.

------------------
Brian W E
ICQ #21525343
Money : spend it before it's all gone

 

[Mike Turber]

Brian,

Please take this in the right way in which I mean it. We do not censor. It is a rule here. The term censor in this venue means to modify a post by deleteing or changing words. We do not do that. That is not my style.

I copied a post I made in the dealer only area and did so to show that I am willing to discuss certain issues in public. It is an a policy here to not discuss pricing issues in open meaning I do not think it is any of your (member) business to know what a dealer pays for a certain product. If you disagree well that is OK but when you go to a store I doubt you ask the guy behind the counter what they pay for the item you just bought to see if you got a good deal or not. That is what I meant in my original post. Nothing more and nothing less.

So I do not wish to discuss those particular issues in this forum which are of no REAL concern to members.

Sorry if I was not clear.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com

 

[brian w edginton]

Mike
I think you have misunderstood my intention.
In a previous post in this thread I acknowledged that I was not aware of any real examples of unreasonable censorship at this site. If I was I would not be here
The post to which you seem to be responding was an attempt get the thread back on topic.
Marion raised concerns, Spark attempted to address them, you came on and said you would be back later to discuss the issues. I assumed you meant the issues raised by Marion.
Seems I was wrong again.
I don't have any problems with the forums...sorry if it looked as though I do.
Friends ?

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Brian W E
ICQ #21525343
Money : spend it before it's all gone

 

[Mike Turber]

Sorry Brian,

Maybe I was not clear. This thread will stay open. I emailed Sean (Valemt) the IP of the person known as MT SPY. He is welcome to figure out who this person is. I do not wish to discuss certain issues in public, that is all.

Let me know what you think I did not address and I will cover it.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com

 

[db]

I don''t know much but, I do know that Mike is right the discount deallers will never go away.They may become harder to find but I doubt it.

 

[Mike Turber]

Thanks db,

That is the overall between the lines point.

The problem is not with the dealers or with the manufactueres pricing policies. The problem, which will never go away, is a product of the trade system we have in this country.

This problem can only be addressed by those who have contol of the dealers. This is why Chris Reeve has no problems fols, simple as that.

As long a MT sells through distribution they will never control anything about their products. Again simple as that.

More to follow.


------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com

 

[brian w edginton]

Mike
Email on the way......probably better for the forum



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Brian W E
ICQ #21525343
Money : spend it before it's all gone

 

[brian w edginton]

Good one MDP
You started a great thread and ,then, dumped it!

of course

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Brian W E
ICQ #21525343
Money : spend it before it's all gone

 

[Marion David Poff]

1) As to the deleting of posts, something of an answer has been given, but I still have concerns. My belief is this: A post should never be considered for deletion or closure until there has been inaproprite behaviour, and warnings have been given and ignored. Secondly, and related to this issue, I think that overspecalization has started to set in, if we continue in the current trend, we won't need a General Forum, just lots of insect like special, specific, boring little forums.

2) As to dealer info secrets, I disagree. I have a friend who owns a storefront cutlery store, I work at a mall cutlery store, I have a friend who owns a very successful outdoor store, and I spoke to the owner of a knife factory just a few days ago, they all discuss these things openly, why are we unable to do so? Secrets are secrets because someone does not want another person or persons to know, and if one does not want me or others to know, that makes me suspicious. Your and others, private business and private life is none of my business, unless you allow me that privelege, but the general policies and guidelines of the knife industry are my business. Literally. The parties that get my business, are the open ones.

But, my words will change nothing, my dollar is not large enough, and my voice is not loud enough. My cause is best suited by silence at this time. Though I will continue in this thread about this issue as long as apropriate.

------------------
Marion David Poff aka Eye, one can msg me at mdpoff@hotmail.com If I fail to check back with this thread and you want some info, email me.

My site is at: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Meadows/1770 Including my review of the Kasper AFCK, thougths on the AFCK and interview of Bob Kasper.

[This message has been edited by Marion David Poff (edited 13 September 1999).]

 

[David1967]

Mike,

I like your article about the Internet dealer beginning. English is not my mother tongue and maybe I am missing something...

My question is: Why should a manufacturer ask a dealer to increase the prices?

It is market that will determine the price.

If the maker makes 5 knives per year (and sells them by himself) and they are highly desirable, then the price will go up. But if the company makes 10 000 of each model (well, maybe 1 000) then they will have more dealers and the prices will vary - this is competition.

There will be people always looking for the lowest price and there will always be dealers selling at the lowest price possible. At least I hope so...

David

 

[Spark]

Marion,

If you are looking for information you will probably find it if you look hard enough.

That doesn't mean that information is supposed to be in the public eye. If something doesn't concern you, the people discussing it are under no obligation to shart it with you. Certain aspects of the dealer end of the knife world are best handled privately instead of in the public eye, no matter how many protests are made by those not involved. It's that simple. Arguing further about it doesn't do anything but argue.

As for deleting posts, we have a pretty good track record on that, I'd think. After all, during the time we've been open, we've deleted what, 4 or 5 total?

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Spark :

[dealer info]

If you are looking for information you will probably find it if you look hard enough.

Except on Bladeforums. Marions point is fairly obvious and simple. This is information on knives that can easily be obtained and is discussed openly yet it is prohibited on Bladeforums. Why? It can be discussed on rec.knives for example which has been around long before Bladeforums. There is a big difference between saying "no personal attacks" and "no dealer info". Surely you must see that. Would this rule of be in effect if Mike's money was not involved in this issue directly?

Marion :

The parties that get my business, are the open ones.

I could not agree more with this statement.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 13 September 1999).]

 

[Spark]

Cliff, I respectfully disagree. Many many issues involving dealer and distributor concerns spill over and are discussed in the forums. Look at the recent "Marketing" threads, the whole ELU argument in the Spyderco forum, and many many others. It's just a matter of how hard you look for it.

You aren't going to see every aspect and not all of it's going to be in the public eye, but the information is there if you look hard enough. This does not mean, however, that if we (or anyone else for that matter) choose to handle something privately that it has to be dragged kicking and screaming into the public eye. Sometimes it's just not anyone else's business, sometimes it needs to be brought out into the open. The key is realizing which is appropriate.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here

 

[Blues]

Spark, Mike, Whomever,

I am not in, nor do I intend to be in the knife business.

I have no qualms whatever with you or anyone else not wishing to enter into a discussion (either publicly or privately) regarding wholesale prices etc. (Or any topic for that matter.)

I DO, however, have a problem with any attempt to prevent the free and open discussion of such matters by those who wish to freely enter into them.

Everyone knows that knife makers, dealers, wholesalers et al are in the business to make money, whether it be a supplement or their main living.

On the other hand, an attempt to quash such discussion, much as we might have about cars or any other item which we spend our hard earned money on, smacks of elitism or something worse. Far worse imho.

I hope I am wrong, but such an attitude strikes me as if you think that your BladeForums membership are sheep available for the "slaughter" when you choose to do so. (Sorry for the metaphor.)

If shooting fish (or customers) in a barrel is what this is all about, then I have gravely misjudged the intent of this endeavor and will look elsewhere for satisfaction of my interest in knives.

Further, I will no longer purchase knives from those who would attempt to restrain the free discussion of any topic concerning knives a member should wish to pursue.

Sorry if this comes on a little strongly, but I have strong feelings in this arena.

Finally, I think that sending the "IP" of the original poster to Valmet (Sean) was a low and WRONG thing to do, regardless of whatever rationale was used to justify it.

I'm sorry, but BF has lost a little of its luster for me today.

Blues

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Live Free or Die