Dealers only discussion and deleting posts...

Spark :

The key is realizing which is appropriate.
Click to expand...

The key here is that you are making the choice for us - shouldn't we be doing that for ourselves?

What do you hope to gain by forcing this discussion to go elsewhere?


-Cliff
 
Cliff,

When we choose to close a thread regarding flaming, or something similar, it's because we feel it's appropriate. It's our perogative as the staff of this site. We don't poll every member to find their opinion, because nothing would ever get done.

So, yes, sometimes we do have to make decisions as to what is appropriate, and what isn't. Thems the breaks. It's part of being a moderator, sometimes you have to make a call. I'd say that our track record on this is pretty good thus far, wouldn't you?

Blues,
You bring up a valid point, however, it must be remembered that if we feel a topic is inappropriate for a certain forum, it's our right to move it to where it is appropriate. If we feel that a topic has left the boundaries of discussion and has turned into flames, name calling, shouting or anything else, it's our perogative to close it.

These are the rules of this site. You may call it censorship, restriction of free speech, or whatever you want, but, that does not change the fact that sometimes we have to make calls that not everyone is going to agree with, but still have to be made. That's the nature of business.

The goal of this site has never changed: To help everyone in the knife industry, from the consumer to the manufacturer, the dealer, and the custom maker, learn more about their business and help them improve it. This means providing availability, quality, specifications and all sorts of information to the customer. This means helping the dealer run his business. This means helping the manufacturer learn what the customers like and don't like. This means helping the custom maker learn more about techniques, materials, and what have you. Each segment we appeal to has it's own set of requirments and information that it's looking for. As such, there are different methods of handling topics, and we have to exercise our best judgement in doing so.

I feel that the claims of lining up fish in a barrel are unwarranted and are actually insulting because we are arming the customers with the information they need. We set up an area where you can find out the goods and bads of knives, makers, manufacturers, and dealers. You have every advantage and resource we can bring to bear for you, including knowledgable moderators, and I doubt you could find a better resource for information out there. And, you don't have to pay a dime for this information.

More than anything else, this site focuses on the end users of knives, and our focus is geared towards you. So please don't insinuate that we are trying to take advantage of your interests.

If you want unmoderated discussion, and all the benifits and hassles of such, there are plenty of other sites out there. The focus of this site is knives, and we expect the majority of the discussions to remain on topic. As a member, you agree to follow our rules and policies.

Now, please note that the original MicroTech discussion has not been locked or deleted. Also please note that in my post I said that I wanted it to remain calm and civil, which indicates that the discussion would be allowed to go on.

As for this thread we are currently on, Marion decided he wanted to question our policy. He's within his rights to do so, however, this is *our* policy, just like the "no flamewars" rule is our policy. We encourage people to discuss the issues concerning them, however, some things are not up for negotiation, and if we choose to have a seperate area for Dealers, Distributors and Manufacturers to discuss their issues, that's our right. Sorry, those are the rules. Besides, as of yet I haven't seen any non-dealer demonstrate a clear *need* to be a part of the dealer discussions other than their wanting to do so. Remember, wants and needs are not the same thing.

I feel that we are experiencing topic drift here and this is starting to move into something else.

Is this a thread about a thread being monitored and our wishing to avoid flames, or is it something deeper about people being unhappy with our policies?

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Spark :

When we choose to close a thread regarding flaming, or something similar, it's because we feel it's appropriate. It's our perogative as the staff of this site.
Click to expand...

You are throwing up a straw man here Spark. We were discussing the censoring of information - flames don't contain information. There is a big difference between enforcing style and content.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, show me where information was censored, otherwise you are blowing smoke.

I clearly warned against allowing the thread to degrade into flames. That's it. You can read more into the situation than what's there on the surface, and you can extrapolate into all sorts of "What if?" scenarios, but the facts remain, nothing was censored, removed or deleted.

Until we start deleting threads on content alone, which we have yet to do, this is a specious argument which doesn't have any merit other than trying to cause more arguing.

You can either trust our judgement, or not. Your choice. But if we do something you don't approve of, then you can call us on it. But please save your recriminations until we've actually done something wrong.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Spark :

Cliff, show me where information was censored, otherwise you are blowing smoke.
Click to expand...

Does the policy exist or not allowing specific *information* about dealer pricing and such to be posted openly on Bladeforums? It would seem from the above that this policy exists - this is censoring information. You don't have to remove information for it to be censoring. Preventing it from ever being said is the same thing.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 13 September 1999).]
 
Stopping flames before they start is censoring as well then, isn't it?

We don't want discussions about specific wholesale prices out in the general forums because they don't belong there, they belong in the Manufacturer Dealer, and Distributor forum.

Wholesale pricing issues are not a topic for general discussion. Just like how to collect on bad debts from customers, how to avoid fraudulent customers, and several other issues. You can call it censorship, but they aren't the scope of the General Forum. As such, it doesn't belong. You want to be a part of that discussion, you are free to become a dealer and join in. Otherwise, it doesn't concern you.

You still have not demonstrated a specific need for wholesale pricing information. Show me such a need and I will reconsider this policy in that circumstance. Otherwise, this is still a non issue.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Cliff,
When I read the MICROTECH SPY thread I immediately reacted with this post...
We've been here and done this.
I believe MicroTech can do what they want and dealers can sign an agreement or not.
I believe this subject will never fly n a public forum with a buyer, dealer, wholesaler,and manufacturer mix.
It is a circular conversation that will gum up the wheels of the bladeforums.
Click to expand...

I think this all Spark is trying to say here. In a mixed enviroment as this a discussion such as this is nothing but a sure melt down, it will eventually be a blaze.
Then again Spark may not be trying to say that eh....
smile.gif


------------------
>)-RadarMan-(<
age:38
Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead.... Vermont Proverb
Click to expand...


 
Hmm....

I hesitate to jump into this discussion but here are my two cents. When I became a member of Bladeforums.com I recognized that it is owned (and thus controlled) by its proprieter and his agents. I'm very comfortable with this arrangement; those that put up the capital and assumed the risk associated (not to mention lots and lots of toil) with Bladeforums.com are entitled to exercise this control.

Mike and Spark have exercised this control in an appropriate and responsible manner. If control were heavy-handed and inappropriate, members can easily vote with their feet (or in this case, with their mice and keyboards) to discuss knives in another forum, including the unmoderated rec.knives newsgroup and competing bulletin boards.

Bladeforums has a dealer only forum. That is not censorship but simply provides an opportunity for dealers to discuss matters of concern to dealers. Sure, I am curious about what is discussed but my guess is that if the dealer forum were open to everyone, the discussion between dealers would either move elsewhere (email, private chats, etc.) or not occur at all. If I really wanted to listen in on dealer discussions, I (or anyone else) could start a business and become a dealer.

There is no question that internet commerce and deep-discounting can have profound effects on the marketplace. I like getting the best price but I also like walking into a store and handling a product before purchasing. I don't know what the answer is but I find Mike's proposals appealing from my ELU perspective. I don't think that a dealer's only forum or the actions of moderators and administrators have precluded us from discussing these issues in public forums. Now can we please get back to talking about knives? --Alan
 
Kevin, I have given you the oppurtunity to answer the question and you have failed.

Cliff has tried to clarify, and you have muddied the waters, so be it.

"See the king's beautiful clothes"

"Don't you love the colors, textures and patterns of the king's beautiful clothes?"

------------------
Marion David Poff aka Eye, one can msg me at mdpoff@hotmail.com If I fail to check back with this thread and you want some info, email me.

My site is at: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Meadows/1770 Including my review of the Kasper AFCK, thougths on the AFCK and interview of Bob Kasper.

 
This is rare for me. I find my self on both sides. Spark and Mike have every right to have a privite forum and talk about anything they want and invite anyone they want and keep out anyone they want. But, it seems to be very stupid to list this forum amoung all the public forums whitch they would like to have everyone participate in.
 
MDP and others,

I will answer any question put forth. If I did not make myself clear before I apologize.

Here is the deal in CLEAR WORDS.

You can discuss anything you wish up to and including policies we have, or manufacturers. I am all for the 1st amendment even though it does not apply to this site.

So talk all you want. Spark was simply saying that certain posts will be moved to an appropriate forum. Try starting a religious thread in here and see how fast I lock it down and move it. (Notice I did not say delete it)

That my friends is not censoring. If you think so please state your case. Just so we are CLEAR here I will tell you what censoring is in my book as we have witnessed it before and it pisses me off that you, MDP or anyone else would think I am guilty of censoring.

Censoring is modifying or deleting a post. Simple as that.
Have I deleted a post? Yes I think two maybe three. I know that the main reason I deleted one was because it was commercial in nature and was in the wrong forum. Now that we have the new software I can simply move it.

Are you saying moving a thread is a form of censorship? If so I think I will argue that point and I will win. (Sorry my ego is showing
smile.gif
)

Folks the deal is this and I see it from this point of view.

I created this place because of what was going on elsewhere. Those who where around then know what I am talking about. This is MY forum and I will run it however I wish. If I screw up and run it wrong you guys will just leave. So it is important that I run it in a fair, logical and rational manner. This means swallowing my pride and tongue on a lot of occasions. We also have a board of members set up to handle tricky issues and to date we have only used them once.


Do you guys realize how many times I would love to pounce on certain issues? With all the inside info I have I could really fill some pages here and you guys would love the reading. Problem is that I can not simply because of my position in the industry. I could shut down WOW completely and run the forums and say anything I want but then are you guys going to pay me the salary I would need to keep this place a float? Should I fill up the BFC Store with products and piss off all the dealers? I get enough crap now with the few items we sell to pay the bills around here.

So I guess in a nut shell what I am saying here is that this is not just my forum but it is all of yours. You do have a say in what goes on here but there are some issues that we must stay hard and fast on and we will do that to protect the forums overall.

Want the juicy inside story? Come to Jacksonville and we will do lunch but I am not going to air out dirty laundry on certain issues unless they directly effect you, the member.

Now the Microtech thread will stay up. Valmet says he knows who it is but he has yet to tell me. The IP address does not match anyone in our forum. Even so I would not want this guy or girl to get into trouble. In fact I am very interested in this issue myself and as I stated earlier I can not discuss certain issues for LEGAL reasons. I will however spill a HUGE pot of beans here soon enough because I am also being effected by the MT BS so stay tuned.

Now you can talk about anything you want. Here are the ground rules. DO NOT say what wholesale prices a dealer is paying and I will not close the thread. Simple huh?

As for discussing a manufacturers policies? Go for it as I don't really care and neither does Spark. You guys are reading more into this than is there. Just like Spark said, did we delete a thread? Did we censor one? No! So stop crying over milk sitting in the refrigerator, wait till it hits the floor, K?

Heck guys if you think about it we probably would not have Spyderco in the forum if it had not been for our allowing open discussion of pricing issues. You guys like having Spyderco around don't you? Heck maybe if we piss off Microtech they will open a forum here
smile.gif


Plus I have a bonus for you guys coming real soon as we will tackle some issues right here in the open about many issues and the main one being pricing. So stay tuned for that too.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming
smile.gif


SIDE NOTE TO MDP and CLIFF STAMP!

I have just changed both of your permission settings to allow you to go into the super secret forum we have here. So go in take a look around. You will find it is not really a big deal. We simply talk about issues that just simply do not fit in here. I want a place where dealers can talk about issues that only effect them. If I allowed dealers to bitch in here about issues that only effect them you guys would tell them to take their beef elswhere becasue you really could care less. Or maybe you wouldn't. Who knows but the forum is there and you now have access so go check it out.

Now how much more fair do I have to be?


------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com



[This message has been edited by Mike Turber (edited 13 September 1999).]
 
Marion, if you have a question to ask, and I don't seem to be answering it, try this:

Instead of pontificating and mincing words, break it down for me in plain English.

Make it a single sentence and I'll give you the best answer I can. Riddle me with hyperbole and mysticism and I am going to wind up off course.
biggrin.gif


I gave you plenty of reasons as to why there is a Dealers forum and you have yet to demonstrate a need to be in there. Clear and simple. Demonstrate a need and you'll get latitude. Otherwise, you don't need to be in there, in accordance to the reasons I stated above.

Maybe you can explain to me why you need to be privy to the discussions there? Please tell me how you need to know wholesale pricing issues. Please tell me how you need to know a problem a dealer has with another customer, that he's asking advice for how to handle. Please tell me how you need to know what any of a million other issues.

You don't. You can't. So don't bother.

Anyhow, restate your question clearly next time if I'm not going in the direction you want. I've got a great history of being forthright, and I'll talk forever about anything given the chance, if you don't know that by now, you'll never know
biggrin.gif
. It's your job to make sure you let me know exactly what the hell you want to know. You've failed to do so, and as such, that's why you don't have the appropriate answers.

BTW, please read the above in the proper context: humor and light sarcasm. If I come off as terse it's because I'm in a hurry and I don't want to be all nice and flowery, espousing on snuggly bunnies hopping through the dew dropped fields. Sparky don't play that.
biggrin.gif


Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Human nature. If something is off-limits it just makes it more interesting...

------------------
Drac Noroc

A mind is like a
parachute, it only functions when open.

AKTI # BA00013


 
True! That is why I let MDP and Cliff in. Let them look around and they will see it is really no big deal.

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com

 
Well. Can I see too? Worth a Try

------------------
Drac Noroc

A mind is like a
parachute, it only functions when open.

AKTI # BA00013


 
Naw not for now. Just trying to prove a point. Don't get me wrong we just need to move along that's all.
 
Kevin, The need issue is a non-starter. Period, end of story. Please quit insulting yourself by using it. Example: How many pairs of socks do you need? The answer is none/0. You could live your whole life out without socks, would not be pleasant and it would not be normal, but you don't need them. I don't need to come here, or buy more than one knife, but I like to. First simple question, in one sentence: Why do you need to keep the general forum members out of the dealer forum? Second simple question: What is the hierarchy you go through to decide if you are going to delete a post?

Also, Kevin and Mike, I apologize for the king's clothes comment that was out of line.

Mike, thank you, though that was not the point, and I may be in a position to get in soon anyway. But I will go and snoop around, thank you
smile.gif
Mike, I was not accusing anyone of anything, especially not you. see below

Everyone--- To make myself clear, I come here because this is a great place. I really enjoy all the great discussion, in fact I don't have enough time to see all the forums. I have to select which ones will get my time. I am not saying anything is fundamentally wrong, just some concerns floating around my head, maybe I have too much time on my hands.

------------------
Marion David Poff aka Eye, one can msg me at mdpoff@hotmail.com If I fail to check back with this thread and you want some info, email me.

My site is at: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Meadows/1770 Including my review of the Kasper AFCK, thougths on the AFCK and interview of Bob Kasper.



[This message has been edited by Marion David Poff (edited 14 September 1999).]
 
Well, I am snooping around that forbidden forum...

And I have found that it is pretty boring....

No, not really, it is very interesting to me, because I am contemplating selling knives for a living, but other than that it is as dry as week old toast in the desert.

Also I now know why it is restricted, the dealers probably wouldn't be there if people were coming in and asking stupid questions and/or filling it with other stuff.

MDP
 
Spark :

Stopping flames before they start is censoring as well then, isn't it?
Click to expand...

And again you throw up the straw man trying to divert the argument.

[Wholesale pricing issues]

it doesn't concern you.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Do you want to give me your approved reading list now?

Mike :

Censoring is modifying or deleting a post. Simple as that.
Click to expand...

The removal of freedom of introducing information is also censorship.

Are you saying moving a thread is a form of censorship?
Click to expand...

If is goes someplace that is not public obviously it is.

So go in take a look around.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the offer but the point was never that I needed, or even wanted the information. It is not something that I am interested in. If I wanted to know, which I don't, I would simply ask a dealer, and I don't need to do that on Bladeforums.

Marion :

[dealers only forum]

I now know why it is restricted, the dealers probably wouldn't be there if people were coming in and asking stupid questions and/or filling it with other stuff.
Click to expand...

There is a big difference between making a place for dealers to discuss things in private and actually moving threads from public forums to the private one. One action allows people greater freedom, the other removes it.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 14 September 1999).]
 
Cliff, it seems that you are arguing for the sake of arguing now, because nothing you are saying has a point other than to keep arguing about stuff that doesn't really merit this.

Are you arguing against censorship that hasn't happened? If so, why are you wasting my time? If you can't grasp that just like flames and religious arguments, we want to restrict the flow of dealer/distributor information, what can I tell you? Is it too much to ask to abide by our requests on this? Or are you going to be unable to continue on with your knife discussion without being a part of the dealer forum? If that's the case, then we'll just shut it down and then *everyone* will lose, because if they don't have a relatively secure area to discuss their issues, then they aren't going to discuss them at all.

Sorry for the brevity and percieved harshness, but right now I'm preparing for a hurricane, so you'll excuse me if I ask you to either make a specific request, or stop wasting my time with this.

If you want to argue about how much we're censoring the readers, then you can contact me offline and I'll be happy to go on, otherwise, this is leading no where.

As for Marion, gee, why am I not suprised that now finally after you've been in there, you now see why you didn't need to be there in the first place. Maybe next time you'll bother to take us at our words when we say that it's off limits for a reason, instead of arguing.

Enough for now, times a wasting.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 14 September 1999).]
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top