Deburring method

I'll have to try that. I'm curious though, with a micro bevel, do you strop at the micro bevel angle? Or at the original sharpening angle?
The microbevel that I apply is actually the deburring step as well. This means I don't generally strop at all after doing it. Maybe just a swipe or two on a bare leather belt, and that's it. The angle held at that point isn't too critical and it's just about stripping away any loose remnants from the edge, and not about polishing or further refinement.
 
The microbevel that I apply is actually the deburring step as well. This means I don't generally strop at all after doing it. Maybe just a swipe or two on a bare leather belt, and that's it. The angle held at that point isn't too critical and it's just about stripping away any loose remnants from the edge, and not about polishing or further refinement.
Does that method let you push cut paper at 90/90/90 degrees? That is what my main goal is right now
 
Ok now on another knife I did the same thing. Did the method on the coarse stone, alternating leading passes on the fine stone to polish. Got an ok edge but not great. So I did the high angle passes on the fine stone and then back sharpened and got an amazing edge. Could that mean anything? The knife earlier never got this good on the fine stone but did good deburring on the coarse before going to the fine. This knife not so good on the coarse but amazing on the fine. Does that mean anything to anybody or do I have to just keep testing it out?
 
So I did the high angle passes on the fine stone and then back sharpened and got an amazing edge. Could that mean anything?
I don't know what do you expect it to mean.
For example, I can observe my edges only at 60x magnificatio at home and sometimes I take freshly sharpened knife at work to see the edge under our optical microscope.
So, the only thing I can do is to study 'scienceofsharp' articles and then try to imagine what's going with my edge when sharpening and deburring different ways. I just do trial and error approach and learn.
This way I found for example the best way to sharpen my kitchen knives for my needs. I mostly sharpen them on my DIY sharpening jig with magnetic table.
I mark the bevel with permanent marker, find the edge (my kitchen knives are at 15 degrees per side), sharpen the edge with my #240 diamond plate and then deburr with a strop loaded with ordinary industrial semi-fine polishing compound at 2 or 2.5 degrees higher angle as was my sharpening angle.
The last time I sharpened my mostly used kitchen knife was about a month ago. I just checked it...it can stil cut news paper flawlesly in all directions.
I don't have SEM to check the last few microns of the edge but if my knife stil cuts news paper after one month of use in my kitchen this is good enough for me.
I didn't sharpened the knife to do push cuts but to aggressively cut anything in the kitchen.
It didn't try push cuts after sharpening but I did some wood cutting (sharpened my spruce stick with the knife as I would sharpen a pencil) and the knife did cut news paper after that in all directions. I do this test with all my knives after sharpening. This test shows me the edge is OK and it won't roll or colapse after use.

If you want a cross fiber push cutting edge just refind the edge on the stone till it does that or make yourself a strop.
Perhaps you will find this video interesting... hair whittling edge (or refined burr?) sharpened only on #320/#600 folding diamond sharpener. I bet this edge would push cut paper in all directions.

You can also learn a lot from the video below.. one stone and a strop. You will see what can do a good edge on $1 knife with 51HRc hardness.
 
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Does that method let you push cut paper at 90/90/90 degrees? That is what my main goal is right now
I don't deliberately take it that far in finish, as I don't have a need for it in my uses.

Having said that, if the geometry of the blade and edge are taken narrow enough, push cutting will become easier. Aside from making sure an edge is free of unstable burrs, the apex width & its crispness and the thickness of the steel behind the edge will make the difference for really fine cutting.
 
I did watch your video. It was pretty good. You explained things well.

Certainly, you did remove most of the burr. It's impossible to tell how much. Various sharpening methods fall on a spectrum, from very bad to near perfect. It was a little hard to tell, but it looked to me as though the paper's cut edge was a little ragged (fuzzy). And the noise of the cut was too loud, although it may have been from the electronic sound amplification. My test is to shave off hair-thin curly-cues with almost no sound and leaving the paper's cut edges sharp.

What you did, as you said, was remove the original burr by creating a microbevel. But then you went back to reforming a new apex that wasn't a microbevel and that had less of a burr. I can't judge from the video how well you did that. I'd need the edge or photos that Todd can do.

The real problem is that you are freehanding the edge. No doubt, there are many expert knife sharpeners who can create an extremely sharp edge freehand. But they have to feel their way into. And it's very hard to freehand remove the burr at the bevel angle, which you were trying to do.

You said you were sharpening at 7 or 8 degrees (7-8 dps). But it's really, really, really hard to overcome geometry freehand.

So, your blade like looked like it was about 1.25 inches wide, with the width getting smaller as you went down to the tip.

At 1.25 inches, a 7 degree edge requires you to hold the spine 0.15 inches off the stone. At 8 degrees, it's a half millimeter higher. At 6 degrees, it's a half millimeter lower. Plus, that distance varies as you lift up the blade to follow the edge down to the tip. As you get closer to the tip, the raised height of the edge has to be held at a much tighter tolerance than 0.5 mm. I doubt that you or anyone can do that. That's why a jig is so important.

If you're trying to follow the bevel angle to remove the burr, and you are a half millimeter low, you'll just be polishing the shoulder. The burr won't even know you're there. A half mm higher, and you're created a new microbevel.

With the Wicked Edge system, I can hold the exact angle. Every time. So when I'm done with one grit and I have a small burr hanging off the edge, I can come back down on the burr at the exact bevel angle and cut it off with a 1/8th inch stroke.

The thing with the burr is that it gets smaller as you use lighter, shorter strokes with ever finer grits. Go out far enough with higher strokes and finer grits with a decent technique, and it will be mostly gone. What's left of the burr will be nearly aligned with the bevel and contribute to the initial sharpness, although not durability of the edge.

But by using geometry to cut off the burr without creating a new burr, allows you to have a burr-free edge at much higher grits. Then the strop just refines the edge to jack up its keeness.
I'm curious what you think of those close ups. Do they look ok?
 
I'm curious what you think of those close ups. Do they look ok?
It's difficult for me to see what is going on with that edge at that magnification. I don't have a microscope to get familiar with.

I've never used the tear-off-the-burr method on wood or cork. The idea of tearing off the burr makes me cringe.

But I believe that the people who do tear off the burr go back and touch up the now burress apex, just as he does after cutting off the burr with a couple high-angle passes. So I don't think his video proved anything. No one thinks the apex is done after tearing off the burr.

There are a lot of methods that will work. And they all work as well as the experience and knowledge of the user allows.

I like cutting off the burr at the bevel angle, and then using a strop to clean up and refine the apex.
 
It's difficult for me to see what is going on with that edge at that magnification. I don't have a microscope to get familiar with.

I've never used the tear-off-the-burr method on wood or cork. The idea of tearing off the burr makes me cringe.

But I believe that the people who do tear off the burr go back and touch up the now burress apex, just as he does after cutting off the burr with a couple high-angle passes. So I don't think his video proved anything. No one thinks the apex is done after tearing off the burr.

There are a lot of methods that will work. And they all work as well as the experience and knowledge of the user allows.

I like cutting off the burr at the bevel angle, and then using a strop to clean up and refine the apex.
To me, I think the point is how much better the high angle passes are before back sharpenings. The knife slides through paper and push cuts before being back sharpened
 
Has anyone heard of the kippington method of deburring?

Kippington's method is pretty cool as well, and fits under the "High Angle" category of burr removal.

Here's a GREAT Video showing the removal of a monster burr with his method.

LINK
 
I've never used the tear-off-the-burr method on wood or cork. The idea of tearing off the burr makes me cringe.
After sharpening (knife still in clamps) I drag a piece of spruce wood across the edge. I do this not to tear off the burr but to roll the burr (if there is some burr left on the edge). After that I do a few more passes with the stone and then I strop.
 
Vadim Kraichuk (RIP) literally wrote a book on knife deburring, which is a great resource. It's focused on the Tormek system, but it has a lot of generally useful discussion as well. I think you can still get the pdf version. Lot's of great information here: http://knifegrinders.com.au/12Resources.htm

He has tons of very specific formulas for individual steels, but his general takeaway is that you want to deburr at higher angles with less wear resistant steels, and with super steels, you generally want to deburr at or even slightly below the sharpening angle, but in all cases, finish up at the sharpening angle. I generally follow his advice with good results.
 
Vadim Kraichuk (RIP) literally wrote a book on knife deburring, which is a great resource. It's focused on the Tormek system, but it has a lot of generally useful discussion as well. I think you can still get the pdf version. Lot's of great information here: http://knifegrinders.com.au/12Resources.htm

He has tons of very specific formulas for individual steels, but his general takeaway is that you want to deburr at higher angles with less wear resistant steels, and with super steels, you generally want to deburr at or even slightly below the sharpening angle, but in all cases, finish up at the sharpening angle. I generally follow his advice with good results.
That book is still available via the 'big river site' in both new & used print versions, looking online this morning. I purchased a copy recently myself. He'd used a couple photos I took & posted here on BF in the past of a wire edge (or 'foil edge') I'd created on one of my blades (Victorinox paring knife) and which demonstrated the ductile nature of some burrs and how tenaciously they can cling to an edge, even when very thin & flimsy.
 
Who is making money from that sale now that Dr. Kraichuk has passed?
No idea. I was noticing in the copy I purchased, on the very last page inside the back cover, it was dated 02 February 2024. My copy was delivered to me on February 7. So it seems copies are still being printed as of very (very) recently.
 
I'm pretty sure it's his wife and son.
I hope so, and it's not just Amazon pocketing everything.

No idea. I was noticing in the copy I purchased, on the very last page inside the back cover, it was dated 02 February 2024. My copy was delivered to me on February 7. So it seems copies are still being printed as of very (very) recently.
Amazon prints on demand from somewhere near Las Vegas if I recall.
 
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