Define "Bushcraft" knife for me please

Andros...I believe I was paraphrased a little...Although he swears by a big knife... I do not I prefer a hatchet...he prefers the knife because he says batoning is safer than swinging a hatchet....this is probably true, as it is easier to control a blade that is imbeded in wood.... I personaly find a hatchet to be a better chopper, and am constantly learning ways to make it safer, but once agin that's just me.....
 
look...some people like some things and can make them work some people like other things, and can make them work who gives a s$&*t.....the important part is everyone that visits this thread loves the outdoors and has something to teach everyone else, and something probably to learn from everyone else... I know I've learnes alot on these forums...obviously we're going to differ we're different people...get out use what works for you have fun, and stay safe...
 
Friends, Romans, Countrymen... I don't generally like to get into arguments that will lead nowhere except people waving their digital private parts at each other, to use a really crude metaphor, but I can't fathom some ideas presented in this thread...

Such as where people get the idea that all bushcraft knives are superexpensive toys for grown men. The "original" bushcraft knives, from the Scandinavian designs to things like the Nessmuk used over there in America, are all still available from many makers with a price far cheaper than the big, tough chopper knives, excepting cheapo machetes. Just because some big name survival instructor has a semi-custom knife made and slaps his name on it and sells it to enthusiasts doesn't mean that a) that knife itself is poor and b) that all knives even remotely like it or labeled "bushcraft knives" are expensive.

Second, the whole Build me a Fortress worthy of Mordor Shelter thing strikes me as weird. You certainly do not need a large knife, or even any knife, to build an effective shelter in many climates, including the arctic north. While it's nice to have a shelter, it's much better to have clothes that protect you reasonably well against the weather, because a) clothes move with you, shelter does not and b) clothes will protect you in places where constructing a decent shelter is nigh-impossible in any reasonable time. This is of course if we're in one of those ridiculous "if you could have only one" situations, with "either you have a shelter or you have the proper clothes, which would you take?" Quite frankly, if you can avoid it, and military teams and sar crews in general should be able to do so, do not go anywhere where you or your charges simply cannot survive without "building" a shelter, and if you must do so, bring something that makes building a shelter much easier, even if it is heavy, like a light tent or half-tent - if there's lives at stake, what's a few pounds more. Burrowing under snow and such is one thing, but constructing a shelter from small woods and branches may not always be a good idea, especially if you're a high-speed military operator trying not to be found by the people looking to de-animate you. Those shelter things can leave a mark, you know. :p Now, I'm obviously not saying a shelter is useless - far from it, a good shelter is the best thing since sliced bread if you're wet and cold and/or injured. But even so, if you need to make a shelter, you have quite likely already screwed up somewhere along the way. The general rule in avoiding bad things is not to screw up. That's unfortunately sometimes almost impossible, but some things make screwing up much harder, and other things make it much easier. False assumptions are one of the best ways to increase your chances of screwing up. Furthermore, if you look at military survival training in Europe, particularly in Russia and Scandinavia, you'll notice a glaring lack of huge knives. Fixed blades have always been the way to go here, but not large and heavy and clumsy fixed blades, but relatively compact ones. And when soldiers are trained in shelter building and similar activities here, they are trained to use minimal tools, so they can do it even if they've lost or broken their priceless knife, two or three. A compact fixed blade is an enormously useful tool in building a shelter, and while it doesn't chop down branches or trees like a big chopper knife, it does help a lot if you know how to use it.

As for the people that live close to nature always using big knives, that's also a total load of hogwash. True, some peoples traditionally use big knives, especially in tropical conditions. But in many northern areas, Scandinavia and Russia in particular, people living right smack in the middle of very harsh nature, bears and freezing winters and all, preferred small knives, and spent much steel only on swords and axes and similar instruments capable of either lopping off heads or felling big trees easier than any chopping knife. Trailblazing needs were near non-existent: why the heck would one spend an hour chopping through a thousand sons of branches, when you could spend five minutes finding a better path around the thickets? And all this was in times when the only people living in Northern America were the Inuits and Indians. So, no, people over here didn't exactly have the benefit of the comforts of great modern cities and being so detached from the perils and mercies of nature that they could use small and supposedly "not decent" knives because of that reason.

With all that said, I like big knives a lot, and enjoy using them. I'll carry a hatchet or an axe, or a big knife, pretty much always when I'm out in the so called wild for a longer time. Big knives can be very useful in many things - I'm not one of those people who have a passion against big knives. I only come out of my hiding place when people start claiming, with little basis in reality, that anything short of a 6" + chopper is a useless or vastly inferior tool in bushcraft or survival, or not a decent knife. If you read my post and your BS meter went off, I'm sorry about that, I wasn't trying to offend. In that case, I would ask you to reread, in particular, that sentence where I said I wasn't looking to offend, and then note how I avoid absolutes in my entire post. People do things differently. If you've learned all your life to use a big knife to do everything, you'll obviously do better with that than with a hatchet. It's important to differentiate between your personal reality and that of everyone else, and the facts of history. Many people have traditionally used small knives in nature to great effect in highly unforgiving environments such as extreme arctic cold and the half-dead frozen taiga of Siberia. Just because you, or me, seem to be unable to survive with anything short of a chainsaw, doesn't mean that applies to everyone, or even that chainsaws are the superior survival and bushcraft tools. Also, note that I'm a little drunk. :D Peace and love. ;)
 
Hello all. After some thought, I would like to put in a post that may or may not make sense, but I will give it a shot. I am not trying to further a point, but am actually trying to make some sense of both sides. Here goes:
No one doubts that a large knife can chop.
No one doubts that one can do many things w/ a knife regardless of size.
Yes, a knife can cut moving or flexible objects more easily than an axe.
There is little that a person could not do w/ a large knife. There is no argument against this in my opinion. However:
A knife will not chop as well as a dedicated chopping tool of the same weight on rigid objects.
A large knife, while it may perform tasks that a small knife can, can not neccesarily do so as efficiently or safely.
A large knife may very well weigh more than two dedicated tools that can do the same or more work.
All in all, it simply comes back to the drawbacks of each system. I had a large knife that would split wood like crazy, and would stick w/ authority when thrown. Regardless, I would not be caught packing that huge thing around. Others would wish to have this largely unbreakable tool, and would not mind the added weight for the peace of mind.

So all in all, it comes down to the compromises each person wishes to accept. Do you wish to lose efficiency, weight, or redundancy, or possibly some combination of any of them?
 
batosai117, your post surfaces an important distinction. Generally, "bushcraft" is practiced and engaged in by choice. "Survival" may be practiced by choice, but it is generally engaged in unexpectedly, prioirities dictated by circumstances out of our control. Therefore, the bushcrafter ought, usually to have everything they, with their skills, need. The person trying to survive must make do with whatever they, by design or chance, happen to have.
 
Skammer,

I wasn't criticising you.

I missunderstood appologies.

In that environment and many we encounter a small knife is not usefull. A large knife and or saw is more usefull the knife being the most usefull even over a hatchet as many times it weighs less takes up less space and does more stuff.

All this being said I dont carry a large knife dayhiking as the risk is much less than 10 miles into nowhere.

This is what works for me under those conditions and circumstances.

Sorry for the missunderstanding.;)

Skam
 
batosai117, your post surfaces an important distinction. Generally, "bushcraft" is practiced and engaged in by choice. "Survival" may be practiced by choice, but it is generally engaged in unexpectedly, prioirities dictated by circumstances out of our control. Therefore, the bushcrafter ought, usually to have everything they, with their skills, need. The person trying to survive must make do with whatever they, by design or chance, happen to have.
Also, survival is come as you are, not as you'd like to be -- big chopper, small folder or no knife at all.
 
I missunderstood appologies.

In that environment and many we encounter a small knife is not usefull. A large knife and or saw is more usefull the knife being the most usefull even over a hatchet as many times it weighs less takes up less space and does more stuff.

All this being said I dont carry a large knife dayhiking as the risk is much less than 10 miles into nowhere.

This is what works for me under those conditions and circumstances.

Sorry for the missunderstanding.;)

Skam

No problem! It's all good as long as we're talking knives!!!:thumbup::D;)
 
One thing to add is, despite its thin stock, and its pretty high hardness, moras are pretty springy and can take a lot of punishment.

Funny thing is that my feeling is that a mora is less likely to break then your run of the mill thick blade (thick blades take more stress since they don't cut too well, won't flex, thickness may mean non homogenous heat treatment, non-relieved heat-treatment stress...).

Don't ask me how they do that*, just try it.
I have tried. A least two Moras snapped in half when lateral force was applied at a level that a Falkniven F-1 would not notice. I mention that result because people in a hurry to get wood open often apply lateral force. Crisis often results in behavior that is not a model for good judgment or sensitivity to a tool's limits. The Moras surely did not act like they were spring-tempered. (The snapee's were two standard, red wood handled models [$7.00 each at a gun show], driven/batoned flush into the end of a maple round and pushed sideways. The tangs started pulling up into the handles before they broke. Still pretty tough. Not something you should do to such a thin, hard knife.)

From my own experience, I do not understand that thicker always means "don't cut too well" in all respects, some thick materials aside. Nor do I understand that thicker always means "non-relieved heat-treatment stress," but I am not a metallurgist.

As for the "Mears type" knives, they are 4mm thick I think. It is almost as thick as a Fallkniven F1.

And about the high price and the "expertly custom crafted" BS, it is not part of the concept, only consequence of that fact that no industrial knife manufacturer seems willing to make a full tang scandi grind at low price (mora sells a full tang knife, but it is pretty expensive for what it is and not very available).
F-1's have the better part of a full tang. They appeared on eBay in the last week for "Buy It Now" for $89.99. That suggests than a well-regarded "bushcraft knife" (that the Swedish and U.S. military regard as a "survival knife") can be had for under $100.00. I don't know to whom that is "low" cost, but it is what it is. Certainly not several hundreds of $$.

I read with interest well-reasoned opinions that are contrary to my preferences because I do not flatter myself that I have had all the experiences that have been had or possess all the knowledge that can be possessed. I think I have learned here from others.
 
As for the people that live close to nature always using big knives, that's also a total load of hogwash.

Elen

I will agree with your post in general but I would like to emphasize the word "always" from your quoted sentence. The reason I am saying this is that it may be the case that during military survival training people in Scandinavia do not carry huge knives but, the needs of a soldier are not the same as those of, say, a new Jeremiah Johnson. Aside from this, Finnish people have the leuku, correct? I have a few puukkos and leukus and those leukus that I have carry blades of about 8.25". You come from Finland and you know how useful such a knife is, right?

Have you noticed what is the blade of choice in the tropics? The machete! Granted you can also find goloks, parangs, bolos, you name it. But the most frequently used blade is definitely the machete. Is that a small knife or, we should believe that these people there don't know what they are doing?

Take care.
 
The blade of choice in the tropics is for slash-clearing large amounts of soft vegetation. Scandinavia has a completely different kind of plant life. The leuku is a Sami knife and has to see more work as a butcher knife than for clearing the minimal brush in their territory. The leuku also is a long knife, but not a heavy one. My puukko-leuku set has both blades of the same thickness.
 
Elen

I will agree with your post in general but I would like to emphasize the word "always" from your quoted sentence. The reason I am saying this is that it may be the case that during military survival training people in Scandinavia do not carry huge knives but, the needs of a soldier are not the same as those of, say, a new Jeremiah Johnson. Aside from this, Finnish people have the leuku, correct? I have a few puukkos and leukus and those leukus that I have carry blades of about 8.25". You come from Finland and you know how useful such a knife is, right?

Have you noticed what is the blade of choice in the tropics? The machete! Granted you can also find goloks, parangs, bolos, you name it. But the most frequently used blade is definitely the machete. Is that a small knife or, we should believe that these people there don't know what they are doing?

Take care.

I think I may have worded myself a little badly, no doubt being drunk as a skunk (but nowhere near as drunk as the Skunk, most likely :D )

I meant not to say that indigenous peoples always use a small knife - quite to the contrary, in fact. I meant to say, that unlike some others have claimed in this thread, indigenous peoples do not always use a large knife. That's not to say they always use a small knife either. What kind of knife they use depends on two things, generally, those being their environment and the availability of decent metal for knives. In the tropic, as you said, they tend to favor large blades, goloks, machetes, things like these. In that environment, that is the solution that works. On the other hand, in places like Scandinavia, machetes do no work well at all, and smaller fixed blades and axes rule the land. Usually, the people who live in place X are the best authority on what works in place X. So, being a Finn, I would take the locals' advice and take a machete to a tropical jungle, and I'd expect them to trust me when I say their machete is next to useless on Scandinavian land and suggest they bring a decent small fixed blade and a good hatchet or an axe. So, yes, those who use a machete in the tropic do absolutely know what they are doing. They would not survive otherwise. On the other hand, if they brought that machete to, say, Finland, they would find it rather useless and cumbersome in all tasks compared to a puukko and a hatchet.

Strictly speaking, Finns do not have the leuku. The indigenous Sami people of Lapland use the leuku, mostly for working with reindeer and chopping (yes) the dwarf birch shrubs that grow there for wood. They have little need for an axe, since there are either rather few trees to chop or there is plenty of easy to handle shrubs to use for firewood. The Finns use the leuku more as a curiosity tool and as a sign of respect towards the Sami culture than anything to actually replace an axe or a hatchet. I personally very much like the leuku. The Sami always carry the leuku with a smaller knife, similar to what you will find Kukri users doing with the karda knife.
 
I have tried. A least two Moras snapped in half when lateral force was applied
Alright, I should have mentionned "in normal use", since I would not even think about prying, since I hardly see any use for it. I was refering at things like batoning it full speed in hard wood. I mean, you can baton without holding back.

I do not understand that thicker always means "don't cut too well"
Actually it's not fair since thickness is observed on the spine while sharpness is observed on the edge, yet many thick knives on there spine get pretty thick near their edge too.
A Fallkniven A1 while pretty thick is quite sharp when cutting soft material. Now try to to baton it into hard wood. You'll pound it several times without even sticking it in the log. It won't get inside it, not an inch. Then the log suddently split from the top to the end. Did it cut through wood? Not at all, it was used as a wedge to transmit shock that loosened fiber: basically you bash the thing until the log gives up. That means a lot more stress than if the knife cut through material.

Nor do I understand that thicker always means "non-relieved heat-treatment stress," but I am not a metallurgist.
I mentioned "run of the mill thick knife" or someting like that, not always. Simply noted that I've seen more "thick" Kabars broken while batoning "the right way" than moras, thickness doesn't necessarly means tougher. Fact is I've seen many thick knives with poor heat treatment (thick grains...) but that's just me.

F-1's have the better part of a full tang. They appeared on eBay in the last week for "Buy It Now" for $89.99. That suggests than a well-regarded "bushcraft knife" (that the Swedish and U.S. military regard as a "survival knife") can be had for under $100.00. I don't know to whom that is "low" cost, but it is what it is. Certainly not several hundreds of $$.
I won't discuss various benefits of knives. I have an F1 (actually I have two) and it is relatively inexpensive compared to the quality.
We were discussing the particular "Ray Mears" design and its clones that is basically a a full-tang scandi grind. It is hard if not impossible to find a similar design below $200. I was barely noting that no industrial maker seems interested in making a "full tang scandi-grind knife", which helps to keep those prices high.
I won't even discuss if one should get a "scandi-full tang" over some other designs, I basically noted that if you want to try that design, even if you're not really interested in the fad, you'll have to get the "official" Ray Mears or of those I-unknown-maker-sell-that-RM-knife-clone-made-in-my-backyard-that-I-charge-$250-I-know-that-s-expensive-but-that-s-still-half-what-RM-asks-for.
That has personnally prevented me to get one so far.

Now, if you're reeaaallllyy interested in subject I can add, Dan Koster has proposed his own version for about $100 which is a fair price for that sort of knife and would contribute to destroy that stupid "monopoly". Considering the 100+ orders he got in a few days, apparently many people thought the same.
 
I agree with Thomas Linton, bushcraft is a craft, a learning and usually a fun and willing experience that people like us CHOOSE to do. Survival is only really when people get lost and they HAVE to make do with what they have until they can make it back to civilization. A bushcraft experience should be fun and adventurous, whereas the person in the survival scenerio is going to be frantically only thinking of making it back home.

As to the knife itself, a Bushcraft knife is just something great at doing what it is supposed to do .....and then some!!!

A survival knife is for the military or SAR guys who choose to use them for their overall qualities (just my opinion) and the situations that they will or might be in.

I have been carrying around my Benchmade Rukus and it is great at everything. It even has the "signature" bushcraft look to it as well:

http://www.benchmade.com/products/product_detail.aspx?model=610

Mine is the black blade with the partial serrations shown at the bottom of the screen.
 
Alright, I should have mentionned "in normal use", since I would not even think about prying, since I hardly see any use for it. I was refering at things like batoning it full speed in hard wood. I mean, you can baton without holding back.
I haven't broken a Mora batoning (have tried the cheapies, the SWAK, and the 2000), but they sure tear up the batons compared to something thicker, like an F1.

Actually it's not fair since thickness is observed on the spine while sharpness is observed on the edge, yet many thick knives on there spine get pretty thick near their edge too.
A Fallkniven A1 while pretty thick is quite sharp when cutting soft material. Now try to to baton it into hard wood. You'll pound it several times without even sticking it in the log. It won't get inside it, not an inch. Then the log suddently split from the top to the end. Did it cut through wood? Not at all, it was used as a wedge to transmit shock that loosened fiber: basically you bash the thing until the log gives up. That means a lot more stress than if the knife cut through material.
Yup. Lots of "thick" knives with obtuse final bevels. My limited experience with batoning the A1 is that it does less well than the thinner F1 on some woods and as well on others. I, personally, don't think of the A1 as a "bushcraft" knife, but others do and that's all good.

[T]hickness doesn't necessarly means tougher. Fact is I've seen many thick knives with poor heat treatment (thick grains...) but that's just me.
Granted, there are poorly made knives. I simply can't draw a generalization that thinner knives are tougher than thicker knives. I suspect, without being able to prove it, that the opposite is true, but strong enough is . . . . enough.

I won't discuss various benefits of knives. I have an F1 (actually I have two) and it is relatively inexpensive compared to the quality.
We were discussing the particular "Ray Mears" design and its clones that is basically a a full-tang scandi grind. It is hard if not impossible to find a similar design below $200. I was barely noting that no industrial maker seems interested in making a "full tang scandi-grind knife", which helps to keep those prices high.
Maybe that is what you wish to discuss, and that is certainly your right. But the topic is:
I'm curious of the specific characteristics of a knife that make it a "bushcraft".

I don't think a knife has to me a clone of the Ray Mears knife to be a "bushcraft" knife, and neither do the folks (largely in the UK) who coined the term. They discuss Moras and puukkos as fine "bushcraft" knives. In fact, BushcraftUK once posted an evaluation that determined that an IIsakki puukko as the best bushcraft knife in the batch tested. Looked nothing like the Mears knife and came with a secondary bevel to boot. I think a "bushcraft" knife just has to be good at the "bushcraft" tasks (whatever you think those are).

I think several Bark River knives are fine "bushcraft" knives. Maybe thats not an "industrial" producer, but the knives are largely under $150, some well under. Many makers on the Maker's Forum here will make suitable knives well under $200.00. Ragweed Forge has pages of knives under $100.00 that work -- by IIsakki, Helle, and others. Some of the Mears clones I have seen on this side of the Big Pond are superior to the Mears knife and less than half the MSRP -- not industrial makers but why is that a factor?

Then there's Dan's knife. He does first-rate work and the price -- for that level of work - is quite good. (Besides, anyone who likes khukuris has got to have his head screwed on right. :D)
 
I don't think a knife has to me a clone of the Ray Mears knife to be a "bushcraft" knife, and neither do the folks (largely in the UK) who coined the term.
Oh well, I just didn't want to embark in long stories about bushcraft. Who holds the truth about bushcraft anyway? Aussies? Kiwies? late RM's fans? Kochanski? Bushcraftuk? Bushmen in Kalahari? You? Me? I don't care too much since I don't care much about how should be labelled what I do: bushcraft, woodcraft, boy-scout-craft or anything-else-craft.

I just gave answers about a particular type of knife that is often labelled as "bushcraft knife". I am aware that it is not the only knife suitable for that type of task (what type of task by the way), and don't want to impose it to anyone.

Now if we have to stick to the original question which is:
"I'm curious of the specific characteristics of a knife that make it a "bushcraft" knife."
The only common point (between grinds, thickness, materials, tang) to all the knives you mentionned (Iissaki, Fallkniven, Helle, Barkies...) is that they are small (compared to big bowies)... unless you count Saami knives in of course.
 
The blade of choice in the tropics is for slash-clearing large amounts of soft vegetation. Scandinavia has a completely different kind of plant life. The leuku is a Sami knife and has to see more work as a butcher knife than for clearing the minimal brush in their territory. The leuku also is a long knife, but not a heavy one. My puukko-leuku set has both blades of the same thickness.

I agree all along! As a matter of fact in both puukko / leuku sets that I have the leuku has the same thickness with the puukko. I have seen though people using their leukus to split wood with a baton.
 
I think I may have worded myself a little badly, no doubt being drunk as a skunk (but nowhere near as drunk as the Skunk, most likely :D )

I meant not to say that indigenous peoples always use a small knife - quite to the contrary, in fact. I meant to say, that unlike some others have claimed in this thread, indigenous peoples do not always use a large knife. That's not to say they always use a small knife either. What kind of knife they use depends on two things, generally, those being their environment and the availability of decent metal for knives. In the tropic, as you said, they tend to favor large blades, goloks, machetes, things like these. In that environment, that is the solution that works. On the other hand, in places like Scandinavia, machetes do no work well at all, and smaller fixed blades and axes rule the land. Usually, the people who live in place X are the best authority on what works in place X. So, being a Finn, I would take the locals' advice and take a machete to a tropical jungle, and I'd expect them to trust me when I say their machete is next to useless on Scandinavian land and suggest they bring a decent small fixed blade and a good hatchet or an axe. So, yes, those who use a machete in the tropic do absolutely know what they are doing. They would not survive otherwise. On the other hand, if they brought that machete to, say, Finland, they would find it rather useless and cumbersome in all tasks compared to a puukko and a hatchet.

Strictly speaking, Finns do not have the leuku. The indigenous Sami people of Lapland use the leuku, mostly for working with reindeer and chopping (yes) the dwarf birch shrubs that grow there for wood. They have little need for an axe, since there are either rather few trees to chop or there is plenty of easy to handle shrubs to use for firewood. The Finns use the leuku more as a curiosity tool and as a sign of respect towards the Sami culture than anything to actually replace an axe or a hatchet. I personally very much like the leuku. The Sami always carry the leuku with a smaller knife, similar to what you will find Kukri users doing with the karda knife.

One thing I can say about your above-quoted post: You hit the nail on the head! I am in accord with it! Mostly, I believe that your comment:

What kind of knife they use depends on two things, generally, those being their environment and the availability of decent metal for knives.

conveys a lot about the essence of choosing one knife type over another. There is one thing that I believe I need to clarify at this point: I am NOT against people who chose to carry small blades like the typical bushcraft knife, not at all! I also don't doubt their experience. What I am totally against though is aphorisms that make generalizations. I have taken small blades with me as well. The fact that I own (and use) quite a few knives with a blade of no more than 5", prove that. But I know their limitations as well and at least I wouldn't choose to start civilization from scratch with them. I also feel that I have gained a lot from participating in topics like this on the Bladeforums and this is due to the people who do bother to say their opinions.

Be well.
 
Who holds the truth about bushcraft anyway? Aussies? Kiwies? late RM's fans? Kochanski? Bushcraftuk? Bushmen in Kalahari?

I once saw a documentary on the *Kung San Bushmen of the Kalahari. The hunters bagged a giraffe. I saw one old guy dressing it with a knife about the size and shape of a Randal Arkansaw Toothpick.

That's not the blade I would use for the job. It may just be that that big dagger was the best of what was available to the guy. It may be it was his favorite blade. Who knows? I am certain that he has forgotten more bushcraft that I will ever learn, and tha's the tool he was using.
 
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