Designing a folding knife for Spyderco

[David Mary]

Okay, so given that I've owned more Spydercos than any other folder, it is pretty clear that they are my favorite manufacturer. I have not been in contact with them about this yet, but I think it makes sense to go to them with something fairly concrete, rather than basically empty handed.

So I am starting this thread as a discussion geared towards exactly what it says in the title. I am going to treat this as a hobby for now, but I will design my first folding knife, in the hope that Spyderco might be willing to pick it up as a collaboration piece, once I have put in the work and have something resembling a viable design.

Brian Lai, aka GundaManiac , the young man who designed the Spyderco Amalgam, has kindly offered to share his advice and experience with me.

Below are quoted a few discussions that I have had with others on the forum, as a kind of background for what I am trying to do with this design, and to help steer the conversation forward.

The "TLDR" version is: I love the Resilience, and would love a knife similar to it in a fine grained nitrogen steel, preferably LC200N (though it might be cool to keep the costs down on this and use something like good ol' reliable and tough AEB-L at a nice RC of 61-62), with comparable ergos, size, and cutting ability, full length cutting edge, 4 way position clip, and either a compression lock, or a refined Caged Ball Bearing Lock, if this latter can be implemented without compromising the ability to put a clip on the knife for tip down carry.

Anyone interested in this project is welcome to put their two cents in. Thank you.

 

[David Mary]

Again nice work, I find myself visiting this thread over and over. I think you should submit a design to Spyderco especially since it appears you like large knives and so do many, but make sure we can go tip up also

Well I don't know if they would take a submission from little ol' me... but if so: Absolutely tip up included! I used to be a tip up guy, in fact. My first knife was a Manix 2 XL, and I loved it (and modded it to nigh unrecognizable), but now that I have converted to tip down, I sold it, and carry my YoJumbo, my Resiliences and a Pac Salt 2. In fact, I gave up my Pac Salt because it was tip up only, and used the sale funds to buy the Pac Salt 2 in yellow once it became available through my favourite Canadian retailer... I digress.

Back on point, not only would I make tip up possible, I would design it so that you can take it out of your pocket and not have to majorly adjust your grip to open it regardless of clip position (well someone with roughly my hand size and shape, I guess). The Spyderco Resilience is one of the few knives that I found to be super easy to carry tip up and tip down with fast deployment from just about any pocket. There's just something about the dimensions, which is again why I would love to see a knife by Spyderco that hits all the same bases as the Resilience, but is offered in a fine grained nitrogen steel (and with a well executed compression lock for good measure). Note: a deep carry clip on a tip up Resilience does hamper deployment somewhat, unless waving but I've gotten away from waved knives for actual use and carry.

Thanks, C Chinook3 , for the kind words.

I like what you're saying. I love the changes you made to the YoJumbo and appreciate what you're saying about the Resilience. I have a Resilience and really love the thing. I'd love something similar with Golden quality, materials, and a compression lock!

I agree with Chinook3. Between the modifications you made to the Yojumbo and all of the other things you've done, I bet you could come up with an excellent design with Spyderco!

Oh my, thank you kindly. Well you guys have me thinking that maybe I'll draw some pictures and see if Sal has time to look at one. Is that how it's done?

I've been trying to reserve my comments for after my YoJumbo gets here. That should be this Thursday.

Without the benefit of having one in my hand, I can only look at your pictures and videos. From what I see, you addressed a lot of things to make something that looks good even better. With your familiarity with and modifications of the Resilience, Yojumbo, Manix XL, and others, it's pretty clear to me that you know exactly what you want. From what I see and others are saying, I think it's what a lot of people want.

I haven't lurked on the forums that long, but I have seen Sal here a lot. He seems extremely down to earth and open minded. The line up of things he and his business have put out over the years show me he's not one to shy away from different ideas from different people. If anything, some might argue he pioneered that style of business. Just the name "YoJumbo" shows you what an interesting company Spyderco is.

I don't remember all of the details, but the fellow who designed the Amalgam had an awfully interesting story about his design getting picked up by Spyderco. I'm pretty sure I've seen him post here. I think his username was GundaManiac. He might be able to give you some pointers.

That's a good point. And then there was the "Jazzelica", i.e. the Delica Wharncliffe, unofficially named after the Spyderco forumite who drew it up. Well a potentially great knife is always worth a try. I've never designed a folder, beyond modifying existing ones first in photoshop and then with my tools in the shop once I have a vision for how it would look and what features I want to change or enhance. I've recently been recommended to pick up Fusion 360, and Jarod has said he's planning to do a basic video series on how to draw knives in it, and I am assuming it could be used to design folding knives.

GundaManiac what do you say Brian? Any tips or friendly suggestions on how to get this going? I'd be honored if you wouldn't mind corresponding with me a bit so I can ask a little bit about tools and processes to hash out a design and get the attention of Spyderco. Maybe you can refer me to some resources that would help me wrap my head around the the technical aspects of modeling a knife to precise specs, or point me in the right direction? Coming up with the Amalgam must have been an involved and technical process. And @Surfingringo Lance, if you'd also be kind enough to share a little bit about your experience with the Waterway, that would surely also be helpful, and I'd be grateful to you both. If you gentlemen are too busy, no worries.

This is getting to be an even better thread!

I'd love to see this turn into a new product.

Ya know I’ve always wanted to get the Resilience because bigger knives just feel better in my hand but haven’t pulled the trigger. A friend who I turned on to Spyderco bought one and uses it for processing birds and even a Turkey if I recall! I played with it a bit and noted the action and blade geometry was just like its little brother the Tenacious which is a super slicey knife. The mods you did on your Resilience are right up my alley and add nice touch. Back to designing YES, a drawing and some detailed explanations (which you’ve done) so we can generate some discussion would be a great start I think. I’ve seen a few forum members creations come to life which is a big reason I love Spyderco. From what I’ve seen the design can’t be to similar to existing models, has to have market demand of course and country of manufacturing plays a big role ( I could be wrong but just my opinion)
From what you described it kinda sounded like a larger Caribbean and at one point there was talk about one but it got scrapped some how but maybe an off shoot or something? I really like the Caribbean but a larger blade with different scales with more contouring of the scales would be nice. Sorry for the novel but I say let your creativity flow..

No apologies needed for that!

You know, I have started thinking about the Manix 2 XL again, and how much I loved it, especially after my mods. I'm torn between a CBBL and a compresison lock. Honestly, if I could have this knife with LC200N, a CBBL and 4 way position clip, that would hit everything for me, and it would be a true ambidextrous knife. The thing about the CBBL for many people is it's a bit stiff, but I modded mine to have less tension by clipping exactly three rings off the spring, and it became easy to operate with either hand, again and again, and without any undue loss in lock up strength. I ground the choil off and turned it into cutting edge, and that was an experiment because I knew that the only point of contact during closing would be the tang against the ball bearing, and I wondered if that would introduce some play or weakness in the lock, but in the time I had it, it was still going strong.

@AncientSword can comment on how it is now, because he is the owner of that knife currently.

So my question is, those of you who have a love for the compression lock, would you be willing to try a CBBL in a knifelike this if it were tweaked as I described above?

By the way, here is the Manix 2 XL after I reworked it:
View attachment 1377977
View attachment 1377978

If it were not for the position of the skeleton cutouts in the liners, I would have gone with a slightly different handle profile, especially around the first finger groove, like I did with my S110V Manix 2:
View attachment 1377979

Here's how the regrind and lock mod worked out:

I wouldn't want to detail the Yojumbo thread, but I'd be happy to give whatever advice or help I can in a separate thread or via PM's/DM's!

I think the CBBL lock would be awesome, too. It'd certainly make it more lefty friendly. A CBBL lock may preclude you from using a 4 position clip, though.

I have a Manix XL and really love it. Design wise, I would like to see the clip positioned at least equal to the lanyard tube. Placement similar to the Manix 2 would be perfect.

Yeah lol, maybe start a new thread and get this baby rolling!

 

[MolokaiRider]

I like the design of the Resilience overall.

I would like to see the liner lock cutout a bit smaller similar to the GB2. The reasoning is in a lot of folders that area causes a pinch or hot spot when tightly hammer gripping the tool when bearing down.

I appreciate milled liners and the weight/balance they afford, but prefer smooth/thinner liners as they are easier to clean. Similar to the RAT 1 or 2 but thinner overall with thicker slabs of G10 or preferably Micarta.

Thin edge with slight convex rather than full flat.

 

[Chinook3]

I really like the modified Manix XL you did. It seems that more people are asking for choil less knives now I know I’ve been asking for them. I think going with the CBBL is a great idea too admittedly I only own one ( Manix lightweight orange s90v in my pocket as we speak my summer edc) AND I feel it would add value to Spyderco line up. The CBBL is rock solid and not as much variety in Spyderco line up compared to comp lock. LC 200N would be awesome because it’s new, maintenance free AND this new knife could be made in Golden
Did you grind the blade thinner too? Looks like it, that could be another unique quality to your design that is make it a little thinner blade geometry similar to the resilience, I know other knife Afi’s have been asking for just that.

 

[bikerector]

Seems like a wharncliffe is likely. I'm down to see what you come up with. If I'm honest, I really like the backlocks or the beefy liner lock of the military more than compression locks. The caged ball lock is pretty nice but I think the force required to Unlock the blade could be limiting to the handle design if you're trying for one-handed closing as I feel like you need to get the butt into the palm of your hand in order to get a good enough purchase to actuate the lock. At least that has been my experience with the manix, though I do like the knife overall because of it's good ergos.

 

[Danke42]

As a Spyderco fan myself it seems like the collaborations are something in a knife maker's signature style done by Spyderco to reach a wider audience.

The Swayback, the Bombshell, The Rock Lobster. They're all unique.

 

[NWPM2]

I wonder if something similar to the Native Chief with more of a sheepsfoot/wharncliffe-esque blade shape without the forward finger choil and a CBBL lock would be possible.

 

[David Mary]

I would like to see the liner lock cutout a bit smaller similar to the GB2. The reasoning is in a lot of folders that area causes a pinch or hot spot when tightly hammer gripping the tool when bearing down.

I agree. I know that the Military has a large cutout for the purpose of allowing gloved hands better access, but even after I did this to my Millie, I found no difficulty closing it one handed with leather gloves on.

I appreciate milled liners and the weight/balance they afford, but prefer smooth/thinner liners as they are easier to clean. Similar to the RAT 1 or 2 but thinner overall with thicker slabs of G10 or preferably Micarta.

Linerless G10 CBBL.... jussayin', why not think outside the box? Think about the Cold Steel large talwar, and how it has steel liners only at the lock, or the Military with super slim nested liners. Even if the verdict comes in that G10 is not strong enough to support the CBBL on its own, that doesn't mean the liners have to go all the way back into the handle. Of course, we're adding cost by machining the scales to fit steel lock inserts. But if cost were not an issue, I'd be 100% for it, again assuming G10 is not strong enough on its own, which it may very well be. I've never seen dented G10, have you?

Thin edge with slight convex rather than full flat.

That's how I grind the knives I make, so you won't get any argument from me. The question is would it add cost? I don't think I've ever seen Spyderco's blade grinding processes.

As a Spyderco fan myself it seems like the collaborations are something in a knife maker's signature style done by Spyderco to reach a wider audience.

The Swayback, the Bombshell, The Rock Lobster. They're all unique.

Good point. I don't plan on it being "weird" though. Just big, user friendly and solid contender.

Seems like a wharncliffe is likely.

You know me whell! Of course, I would want the knife to have broader appeal, so a blade shape with belly is what I'm going to pitch. It will definitely involve some negative blade angle, though, due to the increase in cutting ability and ergonomics such a feature entails, and because this inherently brings the point lower as well, it lends some of the benefit of a wharncliffe, namely improved tip slicing, over an otherwise straighter design.

I really like the backlocks or the beefy liner lock of the military more than compression locks.

If you like the Millie liner lock, you really owe it to yourself to try the one on the Resilience. It is even stronger and less liable to allowing blade play when white knuckling, in my experience.

The caged ball lock is pretty nice but I think the force required to Unlock the blade could be limiting to the handle design if you're trying for one-handed closing as I feel like you need to get the butt into the palm of your hand in order to get a good enough purchase to actuate the lock. At least that has been my experience with the manix, though I do like the knife overall because of it's good ergos.

You are 100% correct, or I should say that has been my experience as well. But I modded all my 2 XL's locks by clipping three rings off the springs and this made them much easier to open and close using the ball cage. In fact, I was even able to open and close it with only my thumb. And it still locked up solidly. So part of my design would include requesting Spyderco to go with a spring that gives a little less resistance when actuating the lock.

I wonder if something similar to the Native Chief with more of a sheepsfoot/wharncliffe-esque blade shape without the forward finger choil and a CBBL lock would be possible.

I had a Native Chief, and I really liked it. There were a few things that held me back from keeping it. The finger bump that makes onto so many Spyderco knives was really uncomfortable for me as it put a lot of pressure on my middle finger. So the handle would be more neutral. I noticed the finger bump was really comfortable in the choked up position using the choil, so it must have been designed with that intent. This knife will have no choil, so a finger bump will be replaced more likely with the "half hourglass" shaped combination of index finger groove, belly, pinky finger groove, similar to the Resilience. I think a bit more of a hook than on the Resilience, though, as that is one of the few things that I have felt could change about that design to make it even better. The security of the Millie's handle comes to mind, though not the crazy ratio of giant handle to normal sized blade.

That's another thing, I plan to max out the blade length to handle ratio, like I did with my leaf shaped Resilience mod:



When closed, the tip of the blade is less than a millimetre from the end of the handle, but despite tons of carrying and deploying in tip down fashion, the tip has neither caught on my pocket, nor has it ever bit me when the knife is closed. Aesthetically speaking, there is a lot to be said about a knife where the blade and handle are close to the same length. It allows a bigger knife to carry smaller, if that makes sense.

 

[Danke42]

Definitely doesn't have to be weird and with the Chinook being retired there's room in the lineup for another large folder. And a lot of large folder fans out there.

 

[David Mary]

Actually, that middle Resilience mod circled in green has a blade shape that I think straddles the line between wharncliffe and say a modified clip point like the Millie very well, and is very useful. I'd be tempted to throw that blade profile in the design.

 

[David Mary]

I wonder if something similar to the Native Chief with more of a sheepsfoot/wharncliffe-esque blade shape without the forward finger choil and a CBBL lock would be possible.

So humpless design? The other thing the Resilience does very well is it provides a hump and thumb ramp that is very functional (once the very top corner is rounded a bit to eliminate the thumb hot spot), and yet not so overly large, like say the Police 4 or the Pacific Salt blades, that it reduces comfort in a thumb driven grip (aka Filipino grip). So I'd probably lean towards a thumb ramp/hump similar to the Resilience as well.

 

[NWPM2]

So humpless design? The other thing the Resilience does very well is it provides a hump and thumb ramp that is very functional (once the very top corner is rounded a bit to eliminate the thumb hot spot), and yet not so overly large, like say the Police 4 or the Pacific Salt blades, that it reduces comfort in a thumb driven grip (aka Filipino grip). So I'd probably lean towards a thumb ramp/hump similar to the Resilience as well.

Very good point. I do love the hump/thumb ramp on the blade. I especially like the jimping that Golden cuts into the PM2 and similar blades.

 

[GundaManiac]

As a Spyderco fan myself it seems like the collaborations are something in a knife maker's signature style done by Spyderco to reach a wider audience.

The Swayback, the Bombshell, The Rock Lobster. They're all unique.

This is sound advice. Definitely bring your own flair to the table. My original submission to Spyderco was rejected for hewing too close to Spyderco internal design language.

 

[W. Anderson]

What are your thoughts on the wave feature?

 

[David Mary]

I think the wave feature is overrated. I used to wave all my knives, but the problems with it, in my opinion, are that firstly, if you want to take the knife out and have it ready, but not opened, you have to try consciously hard not to open it. A lot of people like the wave feature for defensive blades, but I think it's a bad choice, because what if you end up in a tussle before you can get your knife out? And then your assailant gets a hand on it before you do? The wave feature in that case just helped the assailant take you out.

The second issue I have with the wave feature, as a defensive feature, is that in standard grip, it requires pulling the knife back and then moving it forward. Ernie Emerson claims that the wave is faster than a fixed blade, but that is clearly because he hasn't carried a fixed blade oriented for speed of defensive deployment - or he's not being fully honest.

You tell me a waved knife will be fast than that. Better yet, show me.

 

[W. Anderson]

I think the wave feature is overrated. I used to wave all my knives, but the problems with it, in my opinion, are that firstly, if you want to take the knife out and have it ready, but not opened, you have to try consciously hard not to open it. A lot of people like the wave feature for defensive blades, but I think it's a bad choice, because what if you end up in a tussle before you can get your knife out? And then your assailant gets a hand on it before you do? The wave feature in that case just helped the assailant take you out.

The second issue I have with the wave feature, as a defensive feature, is that in standard grip, it requires pulling the knife back and then moving it forward. Ernie Emerson claims that the wave is faster than a fixed blade, but that is clearly because he hasn't carried a fixed blade oriented for speed of defensive deployment - or he's not being fully honest.

You tell me a waved knife will be fast than that. Better yet, show me.

I agree with your sentiments. Interestingly enough I set my waved knives to wave when pulling forward against the pocket. Like the spyderco P'kal. Over the years, I have too moved away from waved folders. I think they are unneccessary, I don't think I'd go to a folder for defense unless....well.....I honestly can't think of a situation.

Also, there is NO way a wave is faster out than a fixed blade. Ernie is being silly.

 

[David Mary]

Agreed. But more to the point, a back pocket tip down knife with good proportions like the Resilience can be deployed very quickly, so quickly that the time lost in getting the blade locked, is gained getting it out in front.

UNLESS one is waving it out the way you described, in reverse grip. In that case I believe with good practice it is entirely possible to wave out the knife and bring it forward all in one motion much like I did with my karambit above. This has some serious danger involved too, however, in that a failed or partial deployment could lead to guillotining the digits.

 

[David Mary]

Disclaimer: I am not a ninja, but just thought'd I'd do a quick demonstration of the deployment of a Spydie hole knife vs a waved knife. Not trying to prove anything other than perhaps that I can be silly too.

Please excuse my dirty clothes from working in the shop.

 

[W. Anderson]

Disclaimer: I am not a ninja, but just thought'd I'd do a quick demonstration of the deployment of a Spydie hole knife vs a waved knife. Not trying to prove anything other than perhaps that I can be silly too.

Please excuse my dirty clothes from working in the shop.

Very positive and snappy deployment in that vid. Nice. I generally carry my Emerson CQC-Icantremember in my left front pocket, clip set up for righty, so that I can wave it forward. I don't have anything spyderco at this time but have owned the P'kal, endura, delica and Matriarchs 1&2. and can say that the spydiehole is in fact no slower than a wave for all intents and purposes, and you avoide the negative side effects of the wave feature. Partial deployment being the number one.


I like your magnetic racks. That's how I store my blades too!

 

[NWPM2]

I looked through some of the other pieces you have made. Very, very nice. I'm not very familiar with the names of the less common blade shapes. When I said "modified sheepsfoot/wharncliffe-esque" up above, what I meant might be closer to the seax knives that you've made. I think a sheepsfoot blade generally has too rounded a shape near the front and a wharncliffe might be a little too pointy.

What do you (and others, of course) think of a seax style blade like you have done that integrates a thumb ramp?

My apologies if these are overly amateurish suggestions that aren't adding much to the conversation...