Since I seem to have started derailing another thread, I'm moving my comments to this thread, and people can feel free to respond here, so as not to take up space in the other thread, which isn't about Noss.
My initial comment, in response to this post:
Well, if you sacrifice everything to get toughness yes, but I don't think that's what Scrapyard does. There's a nice example here of their sibling brand Busse's "Skinny Ash" taking on a Fallkniven A2 and beating it on just about every aspect of performance:
http://knifetest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=455
If you can do THAT tough and keep up with every other aspect of performance, then you should send a knife over to Noss and encourage him to race it against a Busse or at least a Swamprat; the PR from a win would be amazing. That sort of toughness isn't relevant to everything, of course - I've never needed - but a custom maker who beat Busse in Noss's test would be able to charge an awful lot for one of his knives.
My response:
As someone who uses Darrin's heat treat service, I would be interested to see how one of my blades with Darrin's heat treat would hold up, if I thought that I would get useful information on how to improve my own designs and quality, or Darrin's heat treat for that matter. But, I don't drink the Noss Kool-aid. I've never seen one of his tests that makes me feel like the guy understands anything about knives. All he does is abuse them. Doesn't take a knife expert to wear a mask and beat on a knife with a sledge hammer. Nor does that advance the art. I'd love the opportunity to figure out how to improve my craft and make a better knife, and I wouldn't be sad to see one of my blades come out second best against a company like Busse or Swamp Rat (even though their vaunted SR101 is just 52100), provided that I could learn something from the experience. I don't see what can be learned from abusing a blade though. I shoot for designs that will perform cutting tasks as efficiently and comfortably as possible. I learn something new from every design I've made, and I've got many years of learning ahead of me. I don't design knives to stand up to being stuck in a vise and beat on with a sledge hammer, nor do I design them to chop through concrete blocks. If I want to pulverize a concrete block, I would take it on with a jackhammer, not a knife, and it would give me no comfort to know that my knife COULD do that, since I feel a responsible knife owner should, and would, treat their knives with respect.
Truth be told, I would be far more proud to make a knife that a custom maker would be glad to own, than to make one that Noss would give a good report to. That is, I value the opinion of experts in the trade, not the opinion of abusers in a mask. YMMV. As for commanding a great price, well, it takes a lot of work to make a good blade. I haven't even brushed the surface of the level of skill of some of my favorite makers, since I'm just a hobbyist who's getting started. But I would be pretty unhappy to see one of my blades go to someone like Noss who, in my opinion, won't respect it. Maybe that opinion will change if I ever do this for the money. But for me, every knife I make is a learning experience. I don't see any evidence that Noss knows enough about knife design, heat treats, etc, for me to value his opinion. If Jerry Fisk ever started doing destruction tests (fat chance, IMO), then I'd love to send him a blade for his perusal. Kind of a sad statement on our times that people denigrate custom makers who actually know a lot about making knives, and tout the "work" of a guy in a hockey mask who's never made a blade himself (AFAIK).
Very cool that Darrin says he's up for it, if Noss wants to un-retire.
My initial post engendered some confusion and disagreement (probably not surprising), so here's the breakdown:
Main Assertions that I take to be true:
1. I don't believe that Noss has ever presented any evidence that he's any kind of expert on knives, nor that he has ever made any himself. I tend to think it's verifiably true that none of the "tests" that he does are scientific in nature (nor does he make any claims to such, IIRC), and also do not demonstrate any clear knowledge about knives. It doesn't take a knife expert to bash a knife with a sledge hammer, or to baton through a concrete block, or pretty much anything else that he does. I think that's verifiable, because anyone, from the mall ninja to the well-respected maker or collector, could do the same things that he does. If you disagree, and you believe he's somehow an expert on knives, please do share why you think so. I would be interested to hear your evidence and analysis thereof.
2. I don't believe that Noss has ever made a knife. Again, something that, if I should be wrong, should be fairly easy for one of the Noss crowd to disprove. Show me a blade that he forged, ground, and heat treated himself.
3. I do not believe that a skilled knifemaker has anything to learn from someone who has never demonstrated any expertise in the art of knifemaking. I submit that the burden of proof rests on you for an assertion of that sort. I'd much rather trust someone who has demonstrated expertise in the craft than someone whose only expertise seems to be breaking knives. Creation is always harder than destruction.
And 4. I don't believe that meanwhile owns a blade that's been heat treated by darrin.
Things that are verifiably true:
1. I use Darrin Sanders heat treat service.
2. I own a RatManDu.
So here's the crux of my argument.
My theory of making is that if I'm going to make a blade, or offer one for testing, that I'd like to learn something from it that will allow me to advance my skill in design and crafting. Based on the above, I don't believe that Noss offers a maker, even one as novice as myself, the kind of information that would make it worth my while to have him test my designs or Darrin's heat treat. If I were going to have a destruction test done, I'd want it done by someone like Jerry Fisk, who is considered a National Living Treasure in the field of knifemaking. He could doubtless provide me with all kinds of useful information that would help me improve my own skill.
I have no doubt that there are many people who think that Noss provides a valuable and important service. But from my perspective as a hobbyist maker, there's nothing beyond hype to be gained from having Noss test a knife, and I'd rather learn something, and have my work respected, than have it destroyed to satisfy the oft-ignorant crowds on youtube. When you've spent hundreds of hours constructing a custom knife by hand, is it so strange that you might want it to go to a loving home, rather than a place where it gets abused?
So I tend to take issue with comments from people like meanwhile, who, likely without so much as owning a piece of Darrin's work, make a comment that implies that he, and every other custom maker out there, cannot possibly compete with a production company like Scrapyard or Swamp Rat in terms of making a knife that's both tough, and still performs.
Noss himself came to respond:
crimsonfalcon07,
You don't sound very smart. I think you are the one who needs to learn about knives. Also you don't understand destruction tests. People like you with little minds usually don't. I can tell people things about knives that many people can't because I do what I do. You say makers don't value what I do, Well call Jerry Busse and ask him about it. He gave me the FFBM to test. He understands and does destruction tests all the time on his knives. This is one of the main reasons he makes a bad ass product. He knows what his knives can do, he knows the limits. D-testing was no doubt a major influence when he developed INFI. A few other makers have donated knives also and I have turned down knives from makers because I am retired for now. Also if a knife does well in my tests they sell a lot of knives for makers. I had almost 6 million views on my old noss4 YouTube account. That's a lot of potential buyers. I got to a point I no longer had to buy them to test anymore. So you don't know jack about what I do other than I wear a mask. Big deal. When I start testing again I will be sure to wear it just for you and I will mention it also during the video. Also no, I don't make knives I have no interest in it. I never did. I don't need to make them to do the tests. No reviewer or tester does.
Later
Yikes! Rather than responding to the points I made, he went ahead and made it personal, and confirmed that he doesn't know anything about knifemaking. Okay then.
And then this cogent point was made:
I don't think the guys at Car and Driver make the cars they test, either.
And to that I say, that point is likely very true. However, the guys at Car and Driver have credentials which demonstrate a fair amount of expertise about cars, and how they're made, etc, which I don't personally think is equaled in any of Noss's videos, nor has Noss made any claims to expertise about the craft. His videos are fun to watch, for some of the same reasons I watch UFC, but I don't see them as being particularly educational experiences from the standpoint of someone who wants to learn more about knifemaking.
The main thing that I think gets offered by Noss's videos, outside of entertainment value, is a sense for what kind of abuse a knife can take before it fails. Some people find this valuable. I'm not sure I'm one of them, because I come from the philosophy that one should use their tool for its intended purpose, and treat it with respect (especially because taking a knife to the point where it breaks can be dangerous for the end-user). But YMMV, and that's fine. To each his own. However, I'm not sure how effective these "tests" are at helping a knifemaker improve, however, because of the limited and unscientific nature of the tests, and what I take to be the lack of expertise from the videos.
What I'd like to see is some cogent and reasoned responses from those of you who value Noss' work, and hopefully you can help me understand what can be learned, in context of improving one's work, from his videos.
And in particular, I would like to see some response to this assertion: "I feel that destruction tests can be useful, but that they are BEST done by someone who understands the craft of making knives, since that person could provide valuable advice on how to improve. They also should be controlled and repeatable tests, so the value of the data can be easily collated and understood."
Here's what I'd envision being ideal:
Have particular categories for what we take to be important. Control variables as much as possible to test those categories in a repeatable way. For instance, If we think that side-to-side flexing is important, do the same test they do in the ABS so we can measure the exact angle it can be bent to before it gets damaged (although the ABS recognizes that's not a good idea for every knife). If we think that edge holding whilst chopping through a concrete block is important, we should probably do two sets of controlled tests, one for the knife's natural POI, and another for the portion of the blade that's off. We should also see if we can control the angle of impact, to limit variables as much as possible, and have measurements of the edge grind angles and geometry. So on and so forth.
The tests would also be useful if we had specific metallurgical and heat treat measurements, so we can assess how the heat treat affected the overall performance.
Etc...
Then, have someone who knows what they're talking about go through the tests and provide analysis. Isn't that what a good review is supposed to do anyways?
Certainly, props to Noss for starting the whole d-test fad. But it can, and should be done better, in my opinion, and his videos are repeatable by pretty much anyone who has a lot of money to waste, and a willingness to destroy a knife for the entertainment of others. There's no particular expertise required, and the educational value is very limited, as things stand, in my opinion. Feel free to disagree, but do explain why, so that "little-minded" people like myself can follow along. Perhaps use small words?
And then bad-mouth someone who voluntarily produces free data on a knife? What sacred law has the man violated? Whom has he pissed on that you piss on him so?
