Destruction tests - what can be learned from them, and why?

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Also, I love the people who discount the BK2 because Noss managed to break it, or because the ESEE took slightly less damage when they were getting batoned through each other. They think that it's somehow a "sub-par" knife, and yet it can survive quite a bit of serious abuse:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ting-the-BK2-to-the-test-so-you-don-t-have-to

That sort of comment is indicative of the problem with Noss's tests, and their unscientific nature. As FortyTwoBlades points out, there are ways destruction tests can be done that will be educational, but because the information is rarely presented in a balanced and informative fashion, I'd say that they can often do more harm than good.
 
Just for my own gratification, I like to know the failure point of any tool I use, if possible. Plus I love to see thing destroyed.

Okay, so chalk one up for the entertainment value. But what do you think about FortyTwoBlades' point? e.g., that most destruction tests don't actually give you information about that failure point?
 
Okay, so chalk one up for the entertainment value. But what do you think about FortyTwoBlades' point? e.g., that most destruction tests don't actually give you information about that failure point?

i would say that that point doesn't apply to Noss's tests. He goes through essentially the same process with every knife, and knives fail at different points. His tests escalate from simple cutting, to hammering through wood to chopping concrete, to hammering through concrete, ets, in increasing order of abuse level.

CRK knives failed in the wood hammer portion, Busses failed while being hammered through steel pipe or hammered in a vice.... it seems to be nicely progressive, and indicative of failure point
 
Noss escalates far too rapidly and does not tailor the tests to each knife. I'd love to see his test of a Dovo straight razor. :goes to cut wood with it: *SNAP* :rolleyes:

Since every knife is designed for different sorts of tasks and environments of use, those elements must be taken into account.

Edit to add: Tasks used to gauge durability should be approached with actually accomplishing the task in mind, rather than deliberately trying to damage the tool. You'll likely get very different results trying to hammer a blade through black iron pipe depending on whether or not you're actually trying to destroy it. Anyone remember the old "hammer through a nail" trick?
 
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Boy, now i'm tired.
Just so's all you yahoos don't get confused and go all stoopid on me....
I tooked all the stoopid outta the other thread, so as not to interrupt whatever smart/stoopid was left in there and mixed it with all the stoopid thats over here so that we only have one thread of stoopid going on. There is a limit for stoopid here, yaknow. Lets not derail any more threads with anymore stoopid for awhile Ok? I need a nap.
 
His tests are not geared to test cutting ability or corrosion resistance, or any of the dozens of other important things that knives do... if i want to know that stuff, there are PLENTY of sources. His tests are designed to test durability under hard use.

In that regard, i think they indicate quite well that some are tougher than others... i don't think he tests knives that are designed for shaving or light use... the CRK knives, the busse knives, the esee and becker knives, all are touted as hard use or military use blades.... his test deal nicely with that
 
Boy, now i'm tired.
Just so's all you yahoos don't get confused and go all stoopid on me....
I tooked all the stoopid outta the other thread, so as not to interrupt whatever smart/stoopid was left in there and mixed it with all the stoopid thats over here so that we only have one thread of stoopid going on. There is a limit for stoopid here, yaknow. Lets not derail any more threads with anymore stoopid for awhile Ok? I need a nap.

wow... your powers are godlike... i didn't know you could magically merge threads.. that's just EPIC
 
It will be a sad, sad day when people start valuing their knives for their ability to fry an egg, etc. Just sayin'...

:) To each his own I guess, but I don't get the point.

Even if I got the point, I would agree with you that noss's destructive testing could/should be done in a scientific method/controlled experiment manner. That said, he's certainly not the only one guilty of throwing the "controlled experiment" concept out the window.

I mean..."engineering and physics would improve his tests, yes, but the lack does not invalidate them"?....yeah....the lack of science kinda does. At best they are anecdotal observations.
 
His tests are not geared to test cutting ability or corrosion resistance, or any of the dozens of other important things that knives do... if i want to know that stuff, there are PLENTY of sources. His tests are designed to test durability under hard use.

In that regard, i think they indicate quite well that some are tougher than others... i don't think he tests knives that are designed for shaving or light use... the CRK knives, the busse knives, the esee and becker knives, all are touted as hard use or military use blades.... his test deal nicely with that

I respectfully disagree. There is value in destructive testing, but I find that while there is still SOME value in the destructive entertainment that Noss provided there was very LITTLE value due to a long list of factors.

You'll note I did not say that factors other than durability should be considered. I simply said the tests should be tailored (or, shall we say, "calibrated") to the knife in question. ;)
 
Thanks Karda...

Still, I think it's a valid point. Why not test the knife for what it's designed for? Hard use for a chopper is pretty different from hard use for a slicer. And I think Noss's tests leave the realm of hard use pretty quickly, and progress to the realm of abuse. But to return to the original point: what are we learning here? From the users perspective, I guess we get "some" idea of where the blades will fail if we were to abuse our knives. But do we learn anything else about how to improve the design from the maker's end of things, or what design features we as end-users should look for, etc?
 
As someone who uses Darrin's heat treat service, I would be interested to see how one of my blades with Darrin's heat treat would hold up, if I thought that I would get useful information on how to improve my own designs and quality, or Darrin's heat treat for that matter. But, I don't drink the Noss Kool-aid. I've never seen one of his tests that makes me feel like the guy understands anything about knives. All he does is abuse them.

I think this misses several points in Noss's favour:

- Perhaps most importantly, destruction testing tests what will happen to a knife in an accident. If I paid $500 for a 11 inch bowie, then I'd damn well want to know that the tip won't shatter if I make a mistake while chopping and the tip smashes into a rock deposit full of quartz. I've never had to cut through a car door, but I have had to clear ground that hid rocks and scrap steel in the path of the blade, and to baton cut through wood that contained hidden nails. In fact, anyone who buys a large knife and puts it to enough use to really justify even $25, let alone, $500, will probably face these hazards. And Noss's tests are excellent for detecting what will happen in these circumstances.

- If you're paying for an expensive knife on the grounds of extra toughness, then you should damn well get it! I can get a 4" Mora for $40, a 9" MTECH Bowie for $30, a 14" Marbles Bolo for $20 - and they are all excellent cutters. If someone wants me to pay $500 for a 9" Bowie because it is tougher, then I don't think that is unreasonable to expect their knife to do better at Noss's tests.

- Knife makers aren't forthcoming about the limits of their products: you reasonably should know what these are, and that does mean testing to destruction. Often this information is useful because it is reassuring - eg Mora knives are more than reasonably strong for their thickness, despite the Mall Ninja battlecry of "Must have a full tang!"

- Testing for "abuse" can sometimes indicate a reassuring safety margin.

- Some of Noss's tests that look silly are actually good indicators of repeated performance. For example, chopping through a concrete block or sheet steel simulates that chopping accident I refered to, repeated multiple times. If you're really going to use a Busse Battle Mistress ebough to justify the cost then it is going to see years of chopping, meaning repeated smashing into hidden stone, concrete, and steel scrap - unless you are chopping somewhere pretty idyllic.

- Some knives have no sensible rationale except the ability to do well at such tests - for example very thick but short knives like the BK2. (Which as I remember d-testing revealed to have a less than great terrific resistance to edge chipping..) But if you're going to judge intelligently whether or not these knives are worth buying you also need to know how tough other knives are - because that $15 Mora Clipper might well do everything that you think you need the BK2 for.
 
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His tests are not geared to test cutting ability

What - the test where he he chops through a 4x4 doesn't indicate cutting ability? Really, you are being a touch silly. Even most non-cutting tests are designed to be followed by a cutting test, to see if they reduce cutting ability. *Some* of his tests may not be "geared to test cutting ability" is the most you can say.
 
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What - the test where he he chops through a 4x4 doesn't indicate cutting ability? Really, you are being silly. Even most non-cutting tests are designed to be followed by a cutting test, to see if they reduce cutting ability.

no, that test is NOT designed to test cutting ability. It is designed to test whether being hammered through 2x4 will BREAK a knife...
 
Great response, meanwhile. One point you make that I find somewhat strange is this one:

- Some of Noss's tests that look silly are actually good indicators of repeated performance. For example, chopping through a concrete block or sheet steel simulates that chopping accident I refered to, repeated multiple times.

If you hit a rock with your $500 bowie, would you continue chopping? I personally would stop. Or are you talking about this sort of thing happening over the lifetime of the knife? Because that's slightly more reasonable in some respects, but less reasonable in that the latter circumstance won't likely put the impacts in the same place. If it does, it's likely to be in the tip, which means that again, Noss's tests are poorly designed, since he should be testing what happens if you strike the tip (and not likely full force, as the material you're cutting will likely reduce the impact anyways). Who seriously swings full force into a concrete block with the full meat of the edge? Who hits their knives with sledgehammers? Etc.

For the limits portion, that's probably a good point, although many knifemakers will tell you that you should not do things beyond what can be reasonably expected from a knife. If you stay within those boundaries, why should you ever need to know how your knife will hold up to abuse? Why is it that we feel that makers should provide full disclosure for what would happen if the user abuses the knife. Shouldn't a responsible user just NOT abuse the knife, so the situation never arises? I agree that if you're paying extra for toughness, you should get it. But so many of the knives that people discount either don't cost you extra (a BK2 costs what, 60 odd bucks?), or else are tough enough to handle anything that gets thrown at them, but get discounted because people watch the videos with a "which am teh tough3st kn1f3" kind of mindset, if you know what I mean, and a failure under heavy abuse means that the knife is somehow poor quality. I think Noss's videos often can foster that kind of attitude, and that's not, in my opinion, for the better.

If you want to test what will happen when you are chopping into wood with a nail, why not actually chop into wood with a nail in it? Isn't that a better test for that kind of circumstance? Take darrin's heat treat for instance. IIRC, Chris actually did encounter this very circumstance, and I recall him mentioning that Darrin's heat treat handled that just fine.
 
If you want to test what will happen when you are chopping into wood with a nail, why not actually chop into wood with a nail in it? Isn't that a better test for that kind of circumstance? Take darrin's heat treat for instance. IIRC, Chris actually did encounter this very circumstance, and I recall him mentioning that Darrin's heat treat handled that just fine.

Felt a slight "ting" and couldn't even find a flat spot in the edge... cut is smooth... i love that kukri!
 
I currently have it straight razor sharp with a zero convex and refined to a mirror edge... i can't believe it took an edge like that, but it is beautiful

The current edge geometry is more suited to chopping humans than wood, but i couldn't help myself. I wanted to see just how sharp i could get it, and i surprised myself.

all i really need now is a better sheath. The kydex i have on it is more a blade cover than a usable carry solution.
 
I would say that a person experienced in USING knives is better suited to provide end user feedback than a person who makes them, just as I trust the opinion of a person who owns a knife that i am considering more than that of the producer
You do understand that knife makers test their knives ?

Doug
 
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