Did Topps copy Busse?

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Uncle_Jarvis said:
Sar5 Functional ??? ;)

If anything, the Sar5 is the most disfunctional Busse in the bunch.
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Seriously? With it's blade length and downward swept handle, it's honestly got to be one of the most functional Busse knives ever!!

I actually prefer it to the BAIII's, because the handle naturally points the tip slightly downward, which is a more ergonomically correct design than the BAIII.

To say it's the worst Busse ever is WAY off base.
 
I know I explained this in another thread a while ago but I find the sar5 a displeasure to use.. Those of you that actually use these things will prob. understand.. In general the sar5 will out perform a lot of other blades on the market because it is made of infi and is a solid blade in general. I have used my share of all different types of Busses and the sar5 finishes in dead last.. Right when I recived my 5 sar5s I wanted to like them. They did not look too bad and for 170 a pop I was sure to give em a chance. The most impressive thing about the SAR5 was reselling them. Like any of my other Busses I took the sar5 out with me hiking. It was disappointing in almost every perspective. Batoning, chopping, woodcraft, ect. Handle really started bothering me. I just flat out dislike this blade an will never buy one again.. It just boggles my mind , why sar5 when you can have a SHSJ:confused: .. .Price is the only drawback I can see.. Still the SHSJ is the most impressive all around blade in my opinion, not to mention its design is timeless...

If you guys enjoy using the SAR5 that is cool. I still say it is the most dissatisfying Busse I have owned.


barrabas74 said:
C'mon uncle J tell us what you really think;).

I have not had the opportunity to handle the SAR5 but the Tops is a nice little knife, the one I owned had so-so grinds and it took alot of reprofiling to get it to cut well. I eventually traded it as it never stood out among my users.
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Matteo Escobar said:
Seriously? With it's blade length and downward swept handle, it's honestly got to be one of the most functional Busse knives ever!!

I actually prefer it to the BAIII's, because the handle naturally points the tip slightly downward, which is a more ergonomically correct design than the BAIII.

To say it's the worst Busse ever is WAY off base.
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UJ,

I am making assumptions and going out on a limb a little, but to me, it sound like the main issue for you with the SAR5 was the handle. And this I can understand and appreciate.

The blade is pretty darn hard to fault by design - ....... once sharpened to acceptable functioning levels. :rolleyes:

You mentioned: "Batoning, chopping, woodcraft, ect. Handle really started bothering me."

- There is no reason the SAR5 isn't good at batoning if given a decent edge and considering it's blade length.

- The SAR5 would never be great at chopping. But, no more or less than any other knife of comparable size.

- Woodcraft... meh... Yeah I know of some woodcraft designs I prefer. But, the SAR5 would be about as good as many others with a comparable amount of belly.

The SAR5's blade is actually not too different from the HRLM's if the HRLM didn't have a choil. Or a beefy RMD if held choked up.

Making modifications may not be your thing and so the SAR5 might not be a good fit for you. But, again, the blade is hard to fault. The handle can be modified and IMO needs some modifications to be improved.

As I mentioned earlier: "For my part, I feel the handle is too heavy and too chunky. ...... . I will probably also modify the handle (shape) to more suit my preferences."

I think you would have a hard time faulting the SAR5 if the handle better fit your hand. The good thing about the SAR5 handle is the Tang has a good basis for grinding a good shape into it as it is over-sized. It is much easier to remove metal than add.

.
 
In regards to complaints about the SAR5. . . Does anybody here remember the whole "I'll sell 'em cheap as long as the agreement stands that nobody talks about how much they hate them, because I had already done that???". . . . Hmmmmm????. . . .Sound slightly familiar????. . . . . . Here's the exact quote, "I want these monuments to my perforated liver to disappear fast, so, I'm going to cut the price way down with one stipulation. The low price comes with a “no negative comments agreement”!!! . . . That means that you get an unbelievable price on some high performance INFI but you agree not to make any negative comments about this blade because I have already done that for you. . . If you want to complain about this knife. . . you have to pay the full price!!!" :eek:

As for the Tops knife, I've never seen it before this thread. Had I seen it and thought that the two designs were very similar, I would have avoided any similarities out of respect for Mike Fuller and the Tops line. Nothing chaps me like obvious "look alikes" without any acknowledgement of the source of inspiration. I was inspired by a line of knives I designed in the 80's called "BladeVets". For those familiar with those designs, you can easily see the similarities, in fact the SAR 4 was traced from one of those original blades and the SAR 5 was supposed to be a beefed up version of the 4.

That's one of the many reasons why I respect makers like Bill Siegle so much. If he is inspired by another design. . . He states it like it is!!!. . . He's an amazing maker as well!!!!. . . . Killer cool blades from a great guy!!!:thumbup:

We have been intentionally "knocked off" or "imitated" for many years by many different makers and manufacturers. Put a guard hole in some of the designs out there and you would be hard pressed to distinguish them from a Busse until you used them.

As for tubes in the handle, the Vorpal had huge flared tubes, if I remember correctly, and was not a highly produced piece. No inspiration for us from that design whatsoever. There was an Al Mar knife that had tubes, but I don't believe that they were flared. It was a beautiful knife!!! :thumbup:

Busse Combat was the first to widely use the flared tube attachment system on all of our knives and were followed by a wave of others who now use it. It is a matter of our trade dress, but in and of itself, it's no big deal. It works and we never made any proprietary claims on it.

I was inspired to use tubes on our micarta handled line after researching tubes for the Busse Basic line in the mid-nineties (95-96). Having seen the holding power of these babies, I couldn't go back to our original screw type fasteners, that were ground off and permanent.

As a matter of history, I believe that Cold Steel was the first to use the single tube handle attachment system on their Kraton handled knives. Credit must be given to Lynn Thompson for this, as well as many other design and performance standards that he set throughout the 1980's. Love him, or hate him, he kicked this industry in the butt and brought performance to the forefront, making it as important as design and aesthetics! :thumbup:

Let's drink!

Jerry :D



.
 
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Cool history, and I like my SAR5's:thumbup::thumbup:
can I get a........Let's Drink:eek::eek:
 
Now I wish I had bought a SAR5 when they were first offered at a real sweet price. Live and Learn.
 
I don't complain. I disliked the overall design so I just sold them to folks that can appreciate them , thus life goes on.. . :)
DWDR:

If I decide I want to keep a Busse and something ticks me off about the design I will modify it to my preference..
It shows I gave the sar5 a chance because I hand shaped the handles and slimmed them down. I also rounded the butt so it was more comfy.. Trust me I wanted to like this blade.

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DWRW said:
UJ,

I am making assumptions and going out on a limb a little, but to me, it sound like the main issue for you with the SAR5 was the handle. And this I can understand and appreciate.

The blade is pretty darn hard to fault by design - ....... once sharpened to acceptable functioning levels.

You mentioned: "Batoning, chopping, woodcraft, ect. Handle really started bothering me."

- There is no reason the SAR5 isn't good at batoning if given a decent edge and considering it's blade length.

- The SAR5 would never be great at chopping. But, no more or less than any other knife of comparable size.

- Woodcraft... meh... Yeah I know of some woodcraft designs I prefer. But, the SAR5 would be about as good as many others with a comparable amount of belly.

The SAR5's blade is actually not too different from the HRLM's if the HRLM didn't have a choil. Or a beefy RMD if held choked up.

Making modifications may not be your thing and so the SAR5 might not be a good fit for you. But, again, the blade is hard to fault. The handle can be modified and IMO needs some modifications to be improved.

As I mentioned earlier: "For my part, I feel the handle is too heavy and too chunky. ...... . I will probably also modify the handle (shape) to more suit my preferences."

I think you would have a hard time faulting the SAR5 if the handle better fit your hand. The good thing about the SAR5 handle is the Tang has a good basis for grinding a good shape into it as it is over-sized. It is much easier to remove metal than add.

.
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Jerry, great to see you put it straight, also great to see you give credit where due. I have always liked some of the Cold Steel knives and believe the same as you about Lynn Thompson. :thumbup:
 
Jerry is too cool :D Thanks for the shout out Jerry!!!!! :)
 
My wife used to own a Pasayten and today I got a SAR5. These are two totally different knives. Both awesome though.
 
Wow, a compliment from Jerry to Lynn Thopmson. That shows real class Mr. Busse. And I mean that. CS products were part of my progression toward INFI. I still use many of the CS's I own (spend the weekend throwing a hawk, and cheap GI tanto).

Uncle J, I wish I had been able to snag that modded SAR with the tan handles from you.
 
Jerry Busse said:
In regards to complaints about the SAR5. . . Does anybody here remember the whole "I'll sell 'em cheap as long as the agreement stands that nobody talks about how much they hate them, because I had already done that???". . . . Hmmmmm????. . . .Sound slightly familiar????. . . . . . Here's the exact quote, "I want these monuments to my perforated liver to disappear fast, so, I'm going to cut the price way down with one stipulation. The low price comes with a “no negative comments agreement”!!! . . . That means that you get an unbelievable price on some high performance INFI but you agree not to make any negative comments about this blade because I have already done that for you. . . If you want to complain about this knife. . . you have to pay the full price!!!" :eek:

As for the Tops knife, I've never seen it before this thread. Had I seen it and thought that the two designs were very similar, I would have avoided any similarities out of respect for Mike Fuller and the Tops line. Nothing chaps me like obvious "look alikes" without any acknowledgement of the source of inspiration. I was inspired by a line of knives I designed in the 80's called "BladeVets". For those familiar with those designs, you can easily see the similarities, in fact the SAR 4 was traced from one of those original blades and the SAR 5 was supposed to be a beefed up version of the 4.

That's one of the many reasons why I respect makers like Bill Siegle so much. If he is inspired by another design. . . He states it like it is!!!. . . He's an amazing maker as well!!!!. . . . Killer cool blades from a great guy!!!:thumbup:

We have been intentionally "knocked off" or "imitated" for many years by many different makers and manufacturers. Put a guard hole in some of the designs out there and you would be hard pressed to distinguish them from a Busse until you used them.

As for tubes in the handle, the Vorpal had huge flared tubes, if I remember correctly, and was not a highly produced piece. No inspiration for us from that design whatsoever. There was an Al Mar knife that had tubes, but I don't believe that they were flared. It was a beautiful knife!!! :thumbup:

Busse Combat was the first to widely use the flared tube attachment system on all of our knives and were followed by a wave of others who now use it. It is a matter of our trade dress, but in and of itself, it's no big deal. It works and we never made any proprietary claims on it.

I was inspired to use tubes on our micarta handled line after researching tubes for the Busse Basic line in the mid-nineties (95-96). Having seen the holding power of these babies, I couldn't go back to our original screw type fasteners, that were ground off and permanent.

As a matter of history, I believe that Cold Steel was the first to use the single tube handle attachment system on their Kraton handled knives. Credit must be given to Lynn Thompson for this, as well as many other design and performance standards that he set throughout the 1980's. Love him, or hate him, he kicked this industry in the butt and brought performance to the forefront, making it as important as design and aesthetics! :thumbup:

Let's drink!

Jerry :D



.
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Nicely said :D Jerry and Bill are my two favorite medium and large knife makers period. Followed by the HI Kamis ;)

I thought I was bringing attention to another M-tech type knock off....even with the differences in the handles. Though admittedly, before reading this thread I hadn't thought about the great blade design and the fact that it's impossible to keep one like that exclusive just because it "makes sense" :p. I really liked the blade on the SAR 5 but not the handles.....which is why I'm holding out for the SAR 4 :D I know Jerry will hit the nail on the head with that one!!!

As far as new releases/knives I'm still incredibly stoked on my SARsquatch (my favorite Busse after the SHBM or course :) ) and my Bill Siegle Borong. I like that latest knife you made and posted Bill! Sweet piece!
 
Speaking of hitting the nail on the head... Jerry, I really love the Sar5. Please use a framing hammer handle for all future handle design inspiration. I don't have an exhaustive collection of Busse blades, but for what I use a knife for, the Sar5 is king.
 
my brother-in-law gave me a $7.99 CS folder. called a kudu or some such thing. Shall I give it more respect--NO, don't think so, though I did like reading the CS catalogue in the 80's, when I was young and foolish.
Jerry, as usual, is right. CS always stressed performance and the virtues of carbon steel in their ad copy
 
Yea, it was a crazy deal ... I sold it off for a grand total of $140.00 shipped.
No Joke... :eek:


In regards to the company cold steel .... All I can say is WTF happened ??????
My dad still has some old school models and they are pretty damn solid.. :thumbup:



Bigfattyt said:
Uncle J, I wish I had been able to snag that modded SAR with the tan handles from you.
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