Discussion-Production vs. Custom

I just ordered my first "custom", a Landi MPS.

This is as far into the custom realm I've delved, being made by just one person and in the handle material and pin stock I requested.

A year ago, I wouldn't have had any intrest in a custom knife. Like has been stated before, why pay more for a "tool" that can do the same job. I could get a decent knife from one of the factories that did the job and looked good.

I guess over the years, a knife has become more than a tool to me. Like that "soul" thing people keep mentioning.

Are the custom knives better? I guess some are and some aren't, but they sure do mean more to the owner.

I'll still keep my production knives around. Just to lend out and beat on, knowing that they won't mind, their soulless anyway.
 
There's custom, semi custom, and production. And some individual makers do all three!

Here's where I stand on some of it. And I've been thinking about this a lot, since there's a push in the household to get some other people involved in stages of the knife making. Koyote girl already rocks on sheaths, the other family in the house has a knifeknut mom who would love to get involved in some of the grinding and finishing, glue ups and such....

Anyway- Full custom is just that- full custom. You can work with the maker's artistic and creative sensibilities, like Tai Goo, or submit a design and find a maker who will do Exactly What You Drew. Personally, I don't like the latter. I'll work off of a design, but there's going to be things going into the knife that are all me. I'm going to have to tweak the balance, edges, feel. Rarely do drawings translate 100% into reality with perfect results.

The "send me a check (after I have a heat treated blade done) and tell me what kind of thing you want" works well for me. Surprisingly well, given that I'm only 2 years into this. I just mailed one off to a WSS regular that went that way. He asked for something about the size of the lacewood scandi wharnie i have up for sale, but more like my BC style. So I started it, he paid me, and today it's in the mail. I gave him a preview pic after making it and it's like telepathy!

That's custom- sometimes it costs more, sometimes it doesn't. Oh, you can get a leuku or puukko for under $30, but for the stuff you get out of a custom, you can't really beat the pricetag. Mind, if I was uberfamous and had a 3 year waiting list and made perfectly finished exotics, I'd be charging $500 a knife! But even then, you wouldn't be able to duplicate it in a production knife- at any price.

Production- okay, I'm inordinately proud of the sheaths coming out of the shop- but production knives generally can't beat the edge, sheath, and finish work of a decent handmade knife. You get quantity, consistency, ability to easily replace. And there's some damned good production knives out there. Some of which came out of custom shops that went production. Not a problem. The smaller shops are still semi custom, sometimes.

Semi-custom. This is where the individual maker shines. I'm gonna talk about me, since I don't want to put words in Andy's or Scott's, or Bryan's or Rick's or whoever's mouth. But I think I'll get some agreement out of them :D

The semi-custom knives are what production knives can't be, in a few ways. Generally you get a better sheath, can request a sheath for horizontal carry, piggyback, left handedness, or oven a full flap cover- you can't do this for a production, and a custom sheath is going to cost an extra $30 to $75 easy.

The semi-customs are most often models or designs the maker has come up with- often with influence from a target group. The production knives HAVE to worry about a larger market. I don't. I can come up with quirky but savagely effecient designs that don't have "walmart appeal". Oh, I need to sell a couple dozen knives a month to do Well- at my $70-$160 normal price point. If I was doing $160-$250 I could cut that back some, I guess. But I can afford to tune and tweak and produce a design like the leuku pattern bushcrafters, or the (yes, I'm making more) shiny woodcraft EDC and do 4 or 5 a month. That makes for a much broader selection for YOU, the user.

The semi custom also has options- kinda like a custom rifle. You use a production recevier, and go from there. I've usually got 2 or 3 of any blade type I make often around as blanks. You can ask to buy a blank, select a handle material, custom order the sheath, get a scandi instead of a convex, change the blade length or handle. When it's a choice between a $70 production field knife and $120 for a semi-custom field knife, there's no argument! You get that much extra value from the sheath and the right edge profile alone. And- with many of us- you know the blade has cut, been stropped, tossed into a stump in a full force throw, and maybe even batoned a 2x4.
 
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If I were a maker, and someone liked my design but wanted the blade a lil longer, the steel a certain thickness, the handle in certain material, and I made that for him; it would be custom made for that person, therefor a custom knife. Most of the knifemakers on here do custom knives, some choose to make knives of their design and not take orders from customers, so I wouldn't really call them a custom knife maker, but I will never call them a production blade either. Its a handmade knife. Even if the blades were water cut, as long as the grind and the handles were done by the maker; I'd consider this a handmade knife. I am sure there is alot of other details and work that go in to making a knife that I am missing. Knife makers are all different. Some guys Like FiddleBack find joy in designing a knife and creating that design. When he is finished he decides if it's for sale or not. It is his knife till he decides that. Thats where he gets his joy and there is not a thing wrong with that. Some guys like JK Knives and Brian Breeden really enjoy not only designing knives but also creating a knife for a particular individual and that is great also. Bottom Line when you handle these knives you feel a difference and appreciate all the work they put into it. Like Magnussen said, it has a soul. No it doesn't mean that the knife will always out perform every production knife out there, but to me it is more of a joy to use these handmade or custom knives.
 
I had thought about getting a whack of blanks made of the more popular ones. It would definately knock the price down making them more appealing to guys.... er.. well.. like me.... lol. But I don't feel I need to do that just yet. I enjoy making them one at a time... no templates, scribes, verniers.... purely by feel. I can't pump'em out like JK and Fid can.... but I do more than just knives, anyway. I'm a jerk... I mean "jack" of all trades, so to speak.

Rick
 
Great opinions and info here. My 'custom' knives are few... unless you consider the half dozen Bark River knives I have. I bought the knife I wanted - just in a lessor expensive handle - and usually 'on sale' somewhere - a requirement with my limited funds and too many hobbies. The BRK&T knives really are quite well done - and, while I haven't found the 'perfect' one for me, I am close! Of course, then a friend had to show me his Busse collection... good grief!

I guess I am to be counted in the semi-production arena for my favorites.

Stainz
 
Well I like a little of both. I have a great deal of respect for some production folks like the RatCutlery team who interact a lot with us on the forums. They seem to listen to their customer base, offer great advice and great field products. They develop designs based on inputs from their users. I've bought a couple of rat products, and even though I'm getting more and more into semi-customs, I have no regrets about having invested in their knives. I also like how folks like Sal of spyderco interact with BF and Mike Stewart with that other forum. For similar rationale as above - you would get me to buy a CS product.

As for the semi-customs, everyone certainly comes with its own story and I do like the ones that have character. I was pretty flabbergasted when I found out that many semi-customs could be had for the $80-$150 range. I guess previously I only considered the "art" knives as custom and figured that they couldn't be had for less than $300 (nor was I every interested in something that looked all shiny/fancy).

There is something inherently personal about dealing with a knife maker and knowing that they put a lot of time and effort working on the knife you are holding. For me, this engages an instant appeal to working with their knife and using it. I don't know if its soul, but it is certainly character mixed in with trust about the maker's individual skills and the time they spent on a knife would likely result in them noticing any flaws or peculiar behavior.

As for the ideas about knife makers as designers or designing to spec. I don't think you can take the knife maker's skill away from the equation just because a drawing was thrown out there for them to copy. Even though somebody might come up with a shape and provide suggestions about aesthetics - as someone else said, there is a whole new level of turning a drawing into reality and an infinite number of smaller decisions that go into the knife making process that draws from the maker's experience rather than the specs themselves. Just look at all the variants of the Nesmuk floating out there - I don't think you'd claim old Sear's as the only creative mind at work!

Of my outdoor knives, I have 5 custom/semi-customs and 2 production models (plus 1 on order).
 
I really do like custom/semi-custom better. The knives are unique, made without concern for appealing to the largest possible audience, and when you say "I like that, but could you... [insert request here]" the answer is usually yes. That's what really differentiates makers from manufacturers-- the flexibility. The best part, of course, is that makers are people you can really relate to. Not to say you can't with great people like Sal Glesser or TazKristi or Thomas W but they are still part of a much larger organization and hence not quite as personal.

The downside is, due to the nature of a (semi-)custom you are much more likely to feel bad about doing things you wouldn't think twice to do to a Rat or Fallkniven or Spyderco. And of course, due to the higher volumes, a production can often end up being cheaper.
 
The downside is, due to the nature of a (semi-)custom you are much more likely to feel bad about doing things you wouldn't think twice to do to a Rat or Fallkniven or Spyderco. And of course, due to the higher volumes, a production can often end up being cheaper.

No guilt buddy - just use 'em hard........and then let the maker know what worked and what didn't.
 
I am a fan of the custom knives. That said, I got along for the first 60 years including the Military without custom knives and I could continue to do so if need be. There is no shortage of good production knives and they certainly have their place. If you find one you like and need to replace it, it can usually be done over night or within a very few days. This would be the main advantage of production knives. My Pet peeve is products that I take a liking to then can't replace them if need be. I would never drop the money for these high end but nearly imposable to replace knives. They are not worth it to me and I don't need need them.

Not to say that some production knives are not discontinued but it's rare and some of the real staples of production knives like the Buck 110 or 119 are almost always available and can be found almost everywhere. This means a lot to me in some case's so I am sure I will never turn my back on production knives.
 
The "send me a check (after I have a heat treated blade done) and tell me what kind of thing you want" works well for me. Surprisingly well, given that I'm only 2 years into this. I just mailed one off to a WSS regular that went that way. He asked for something about the size of the lacewood scandi wharnie i have up for sale, but more like my BC style. So I started it, he paid me, and today it's in the mail. I gave him a preview pic after making it and it's like telepathy!

I do believe that is me! Show that puppy off Christof!
 
awww, not the best photos i've ever done, but


106-1.jpg


106-2.jpg
 
Excellent work Christof, I really like the hollow pins your doing lately!
 
No guilt buddy - just use 'em hard........and then let the maker know what worked and what didn't.
Except that makers are only mortal and that we usually expect our favorite production companies to last our lifetime...

Or, for a little less morbid example, we see that Mike Obenauf has stopped making folders... who's going to fix or replace a broken Obie should it ever happen?
 
i have both customs and productions. Some of the customs were CHEAPER ($-wise) and better than some of my productions.

In any case, i like all the choice we have, there are a LOT of GREAT custom guys in KnifeMakers For Sale, and a lot of great production knives out there.

I say, buy both, and lots of both.
 
Up till the last year I only had production knives and many of them .Some expensive some not but after many years I realized that almost all the production knives I bought ,I had them customized .Why bother buying 300 dollars worth production knives and then pay 100 more bucks to have it convexed,the edge thinned out and the handle modified,when many times for much less you can have a custom knife made the way you like it.There are many excellent custom maker on the bladeforums ,with good prices ,good warranty and excellent workmanship .And MOST OF THE PRODUCTION KNIVES ARE MADE IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES,THAT IS WHY WE SHOULD SUPPORT THE LITTLE GUYS ,WHO REALLY CARE ABOUT COSTUMERS.Many custom makers charge fees that most of us can not afford but many don't.If you want a good, less expensive try David Farmer ,he has some really good design ,made in 1095 with convex edge [When I first saw his knives ,I did not give much thought ,but the more I see them ,the more I like them,these are real working knives],EXCELLENT PRICE and he is a very nice guy to deal with ,it's a pleasure to talk to him even if you don't order anything.If you want something different try Coyote ,his knives are made in L6,one of my favorite steels,also excellent prices,very goood designs and many are differentially tempered .They usually come with a nice leather sheath,or you can just draw what you want and send it to him to make it for you.By the way he works with 5160 and 1080 as well and he FORGES....
OR YOU CAN GIVE A TRY TO DAVID WESNER .His waiting time is a little longer but his work is AMAZING.He works with a variety of steels and handle materials and has a very reasonable pricing.You can draw anything you like and he can make it for you.I like his work so much that I saw one of his knives on the bladeforums about a year ago and had been looking for a year to find out who the maker was.When I found it out I gave him a call for an order and I HAVE NEVER EVER SAW ANYONE CARING SO MUCH ABOUT HIS CUSTOMERS AS HE DOES.HE REALLY PUTS HIS HEART INTO HIS WORK ,AND HE IS ALSO A GENTLEMAN.THERE ARE MANY OTHERS TO CHOSE FROM ,SO I THINK EVERYONE HAS HIS OR HER FAVORITE MAKER.
I AM REALLY GRATEFUL TO BLADEFORUMS FOR FOUNDING OUT ABOUT THESE MAKERS AND LEARNING SO MUCH ABOUT KNIVES AND STEELS.
---When you pay for a custom knife , you don't only pay for the knife but for the suport you get from these makers ,many of whom put their heart and soul into their work.THAT IS WHY WE SHOULD SUPPORT THEM .
This is only my opinion and this does not mean the we should not buy any more production knives.If you like it -buy it.
SORRY FOR THE LONG POST.ALL THE BEST
 
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Except that makers are only mortal and that we usually expect our favorite production companies to last our lifetime...

Or, for a little less morbid example, we see that Mike Obenauf has stopped making folders... who's going to fix or replace a broken Obie should it ever happen?

I guess I'm just one of those guys who tears off the plastic sheet from his new couch after its been placed into the living room......

But to take up this thread. The personal time a maker puts into a knife I think is a real selling point for me and then there is that unique knife factor. You notice the little details and sometimes little imperfections that become the character marks of that blade. Maybe that's why I'm now so drawn to those 'as-forged' finishes at the moment - they just look like that brown leather bomber jacket you wore for 6 years, or an old pair of blue jeans. I don't want to frame my old blue jeans and put them on a wall. I just want to wear em - and if the fish hook rips a hole in them - oh well - chalk it up to either another character mark or time to start breaking in a new pair.

Using custom knives for me is a lot like that. You pull out your knife and go at it, and then somebody asks what the heck kind of knife you have. So you tell them a little story about this maker in Nebraska, and its made of this type of steel and the handle is..... and then they look at you like you are some kind of screwball and start answering an e-mail on their godforsaken blackberry.....Then you calmly ask them - what kind of weirdo checks their e-mail when they are out camping? I'm sure you've all run into this scenario before...

Now having answered Ilbruche's rat trap e-mail.....I wonder whether one could stealthfully remove the battery from a blackberry and fill the compartment up with peanut butter.....he he he....That just might work!!!!!
 
The majority of production knives out there don't meet my needs. More often than not you're getting a flat ground, synthetic handled knife with a janky leather or kydex :barf: sheath. If your lucky it will have a decent edge.

I like convex edges, not many production knives have convex edges. So we have BRKT and Fallkniven in the convex category.

Besides Bark River most wood handles are the cheapest grade wood with no figure. I like a handle with some character.

And sheathes.....once in a while you get lucky. Usually you get some crappy leather bag to drop your knife in. Or else $3 worth of plastic and nylon from China. To me it is kind of a rip off to buy a $200 knife that comes with a POS sheath.

I started ripping apart knives with plastic and rubber handles so I could make a knife my own. After that it was only a matter of time before I started making my own sheathes

I don't like to settle for anything less than what I want. So for me custom knives are going to appeal to me much more than productions. The best are makers that will sell me just the blade, can't beat that. :thumbup:
 
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