Disgusting - anthrax delivery thru Reno Post Office

Back one more time. Rust,good intentions like what Uncle said. Cool avatar by the way! We still need to kill all of them even if it means killing some of the innocent...sad but true.
Good night all!
 
I'll settle for killing the guilty on two conditions (as though I have a choice):

1: We must accept the consequences of this action, understanding they they were predictable.

2: We must remember to ask who is truly guilty, preferably before pulling the trigger.

Thanks about the avatar, by the way. My GF drew it as a representation of me, going on a year ago I think.
 
Dang!! These Little talks are addictive! I need to go to sleep now, I have to get up in 6 hours and do another 12 hour shift and Bin Laden needs a good a$$ beatin'!!! Good night and I mean it this time...I think!:D
 
I've have just now read this thread... don't know why it took me so long to get to it :confused:

Rust, please keep posting your views. They are thought provoking. I commend you for your ideals and standing your ground, even when outnumbered :)

I wish that I too could take the same views. My feelings have been conflicting with my Christian values since 9-11. I come from an anti-terrorism background. We were preaching back in the mid-eighties that America was vulnerable to attacks, but it was the eighties. All the government was interested in was stopping the drug trafficking... nobody listened.

I feel strongly that it will be a long, bloody fight to completely end terrorism as we know it. And some of it will be fought on U.S. soil. I think that Yvsa's idea of broadcasting the torture of terrorists could be a detterant to some others getting involved. It happened on a larger scale in W.W. II with the bombing of Japan.... and it saved lives too by forcing Japan to surrender. It was a horrible act committed against a country where a lot of innocent people perished, but it was done for honorable reasons... to ultimately save lives.

I too feel that I have it in me to perform such an act if need be... I wouldn't like it a bit, and I might have a problem living with myself afterwards (I haven't made peace with my darkside yet), but i could still do it. If that type of death would prevent others from dying, then so be it. Terrorists do not (in my opinion) deserve an honorable death. The pain and suffering inflicted by them should be returned 10 fold unto them. This is where my Christian values give me problems as we are not supposed to be the judge of our enemies. That is God's job... but (and I'm going to feel real guilty about saying this)... just in case God's real busy, we should take care of some of it for Him... just to make sure none slip through the cracks...

I think that the only way we'll win this war on terrorism is to erradicate the central core and hardliners of each group in whatever fashion happens to be available. Aid the innocent population that has been victimized by terranical leaders of these groups (in the case of the Taliban) with food, etc..., and move on. The only way to stop the terrorists from recruiting new "freedom fighters" from the slums and poverty is to build up those areas with aid, giving hope to those that didn't have it before, while killing off the recruiters (publically if needed).

I might be a little off base (I'm really tired), but to sit back and try a peaceful solution at this point would certainly invite another attack... maybe much worse than 9-11. If Bin Laden wanted a war with us, he got it. If we offered peaceful solutions... he'd just attack again to prod us harder into a war. We are much better off on an offensive footing than a defensive one.

Be prepared... there will be more attacks on U.S. soil. More than likely bigger than the WTC and the Pentagon. I really hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I will be...

BTW... Howard, thank you for that link. It was the best laugh I've had all weekend! We'll need that here on this thread and in the cantina in the coming days I think...

Have a safe weekend everyone! I'm putting my morbid butt to bed :)

Alan
 
Pretty well put ( maybe much better but I'm tired too, Coug. ).

We can't eradicate terrorism.

But we can raise the stakes to the point it becomes far too high a price to pay for those who would think of using it. I wonder how long the Taliban's support would last if their captured mujahideen were dropped by parachute in their town squares after being executed as Yvsa suggested?

I'm not advocating doing so. But why not leave our options open?
 
Well, if people want me to argue with them, I suppose I can comply. Hold up... no I can't!

Anyways, I feel that the chief danger in these matters is that in our search for a hateful enemy, we should dehumanize innocents, and become no better than the terrorists we claim to fight. "He who fights with monsters should see to it that he does not become a monster." -Nietzsche

I find it easy to seperate terrorists from other people of the Middle East. I'm learning that I seem to be practically unique in this ability, which disturbs me. Also, my view that criminal justice is more appropriate to this situation than military action has been an unpopular one. My faith in diplomatic cunning is less well-respected than strong arm tactics.

I disagree that diplomacy failed here. I believe that what failed was the use of verbal strong arm tactics. No matter what weapon you choose, you can find a chink in somebody's armour, even if that weapon is made of words. The choice of force reinforces a precedent of violence. To make Osama Bin Laden an example by trying him for crimes against Humanity might have sent a more meaningful message that violence will not be tolerated. The current message, as I see it, is that it's time to rumble.
 
(Disclaimer: I am speaking only for myself and not as a representative of any branch of government or agency.)

This is, of course, an interesting topic.

My partner at work and I have been having hypothetical discussions all week about this and I feel many emotions akin to AC except for the religious basis for them.

As an LEO, our main thrust is to investigate crime and prosecute it through the legal system and the courts.

Of late, however, my feeling (rightly or wrongly) is that though the legal system must be used and preserved, we must be prepared and able to be ruthless in our dealings with our enemies foreign and domestic.

Throughout my career I've been proud of the fact that I've never lost a trial and never been accused of gratuitously using force or violence against a defendant. But what about if I arrested someone who had knowledge of when the next disaster would strike which would kill untold numbers of people? Read him his Miranda warning? Give him access to counsel? Or, alternatively, use any means, chemical, drug or physical to compel this individual to provide the information which might save those lives? (I feel quite capable of utilizing any method at this point to achieve that goal. I'd not have thought so a short while ago.)

I was watching a former Director of the KGB being interviewed about how the US deals with the terrorist threat. He said something which struck a chord with me. He stated (rationalizing or not) that the higher moral good (saving/preserving society) was achieved via the utilization of immoral tactics. In effect, using those means was the higher moral good because it helped to preserve society, life, freedom and liberty. One must look past the immediate "means" and see the ultimate "end".

Tough questions and tough answers. I don't think that people or the government (in general) yet realize that rhetoric ain't gonna get it done this time. Only cold, hard, ruthless, calculated action intended to shock, disrupt, disarm and disable our foes will prevail. The gloves must come off.

On the other hand, and quite in contrast to that, we must remain open and conscious of doing what's right domestically and internationally wherever and whenever we can. We cannot lose sight of the things that make us a great nation and society. Justice must not become a foreign concept.

My take this morning for what it's worth.
 
We arrest Bin Laden and take him before a world court to face charges on crimes against humanity. For months on end he and his friends will face the cameras, their defenders will scream foul play, and protesters on both sides will march up and down the streets of every country across the globe. Every day, 24 hours a day, CNN and the other media will report record ratings as the trial becomes the biggest thing since the O.J.Simpson debacle.

Ultimately, he will be found guilty and imprisoned.

And with that we would have taken a local thug and transformed him into a global celebrity. Millions throughout the developing world - not to mention some of the lunatic fringe in the developed world - would actively set out to free Bin Laden. Terrorist acts would multiply 10 fold from what we have been or are likely to experience today. Millions would die needlessly just because someone lacked the fortitude to do what needed to be done the first time.

I see no need to glorify this scum. No torture, no public appearances, no great show trial, and no televised slot on Heraldo, or the Tonight Show, Just a quick bullet and an unmarked grave in a dark corner of the desert.

n2s
 
To Yvsa, Wal, AC, and all my other NDN bro's here:

I hope when they open the "books" to let some of us non-skins in as blood brothers you'll allow me the honor of joining you. Your words and feelings resonate strongly in me. (But I think you guys already knew that.)

When I read this thread with all of the varying points of view from many different perspectives it makes me proud to be a part of this "cantina". This place is one of the very best reasons why liberty must be preserved.

I'm proud to be amongst all of you.
 
Personally, I feel that there are no "books" involved in the admission of a brother into the brotherhood. You either are, or you are not one of us. You have been "in" for quite some time, regardless of the existence of any sort of registry.

Other than being a little slow on the uptake, you are also quite eloquent:D
 
Wal,

I kinda figured as much.

Sometimes it's just good to hear and feel. :)

Oh, and thanks for the kind words. It's easy when you have good inspiration.
 
.....I would caution you not to get too puffed up over my statement of brotherhood....after all, it goes so far as to include some in your area who wear strange costumes, and run around waving stubby little "knuckle knives".:rolleyes:
 
The KGB's methods of criminal investigation ... um ... did not work very well. I'm thinking of one case in particular as a good example ... can't remember all the details at the moment ... there was a Russian serial killer who killed a large number of victims over a period of years. In terms of sheer numbers of victims he outdid any of the serial killers of the West. The KGB's method of investigation was to pick a suspect, torture a confession out of him, and execute him. Then when they noticed the serial killer was still operating they would pick another suspect, torture a confession out of him, and execute him. That went on for years and they never did catch the real killer. They didn't torture and kill as many people as he did, but it adds up to quite a list....
 
Sorry if this is moving a bit afield, but this thread has gotten me thinking quite a bit this morning.

It seems to me that looking past the word and the current usage (spin), "terrorism" hasn't really changed since time immemorial except for the means and the delivery systems available.

Whether it's small pox laden blankets or leaving your enemies broken bodies behind on the field of battle scalped...Whether tongues pulled out of throats (Colombian necktie) or stuffing gentitalia in victims mouthes, it all amounts to the same thing...terrorism.

The current crop of terrorists we face is cunning and ingenious because they have been smart enough to exploit our weaknesses and have technology to aid them.

They can't fly bombers into our airspace so they use our aviation system against us. They can't mass troops so they use the mails. They exploit our open borders and the ability to move freely in our society.

The only way to win (without giving up our fundamental freedoms) is to think as they do and anticipate their moves. There is no way to prevent loss of life and mayhem, only a means of lessening its devestation while we attempt to ferret out the enemy and destroy his strongholds on many fronts.

This is a battle that the military and law enforcement cannot win alone. This one truly will require the vigilance of the citizenry.

We must think, predict, anticipate, adapt and take action in a concerted fashion. Each and every one of us, American and non-American who is committed to the idea of eradicating this plague which is visited upon us.
 
Cougar,

Please do not twist my meaning or construe that I advocate wholesale use of such a methodology. Understand simply that I am illustrating a point and questions that are raised. After twenty four years of federal service, the answers to addressing the ills that face society are still not easily determined, even amongst those with experience in the trenches as opposed to merely hypothesizing about it.

But answers and solutions must be found.

Wal,

Thanks for bringing me back to Earth. ;)
 
Many thanks, all, for soul searching posts. Valuable info and much appreciated.

I think all of us are still trying to define our feelings and figure out what to do.
 
Yvsa,

I thought a lot about what you had said reg'd these people and torture. I also read what Blues said and in a way, it would make sense if the terrorist arrested had information about an impending attack whose prevention could save a good deal of lives. While I do not support the idea of torture in any sense as a form of retribution, I cannot honestly say that if something like this struck home and hurt my loved ones, that I would still hold this belief. In other words, if my loved ones were hurt, then I would definitely use any form of retribution that the darkest part of my mind could devise. In that sense, I think that while I do feel bad that I would think that way, on the other hand, I feel that this is what makes us all human. None of us are perfect by any stretch of the imagination. We try to work at it, but misguided acts like the attack throw our whole system of beliefs out of whack and makes us thirst for revenge.

In any case that's my .02 cents on it. This thread has proven to be interesting and it gives a lot of insight into how each person feels individually and as a community how we feel about what has happened. Also, it gave a good opportunity to blow off steam and get on with other important things such as what the next khukuri might be on our wish list.. ;)

Arvind
 
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