Disgusting - anthrax delivery thru Reno Post Office

N2S,

I think you'll find that Osama Bin Laden is already a global celebrity, and that there are already numerous protests worldwide against American actions. The primary difference, I feel, is that if Bin Laden were tried and punished before the world, the power of that statement would be greater. It would be an act of justice, not of war.

New can of worms - America has 'accidentally' dropped a 900Kg smart bomb on civilian housing. The oficial line is that this bomb was destined to destroy a helicopter, but that it veered wildly off-course.

Alright, what is more appropriate for the task of destroying a grounded helicopter; an ATG missile from a fighter jet, cluster bombs on a landing pad, or a 900Kg cruise missile? Personally, I'd say that any CEO who wastes a cruise missile on a single lightly-armoured mobile target like a helicopter has far too much time and resources on his hands.

If I were the suspicious sort, I might surmise that the US military suspected the housing complex of holding Al Quaida personell, dropped a big-arse bomb on it, and later denied that the complex had been their target when it turned out that they had slaughtered and maimed civilians.

Thoughts?
 
Originally posted by Rust

If I were the suspicious sort, I might surmise that the US military suspected the housing complex of holding Al Quaida personell, dropped a big-arse bomb on it, and later denied that the complex had been their target when it turned out that they had slaughtered and maimed civilians.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I think such speculative second guessing accomplishes nothing since it is made in the absence of reliable intelligence.
 
America seems to have awoken from its slumber. I haven't seen this sort of unity in the country in years. It's unfortunate it took an act of terrorism to get people awaken from their state of apathy.

I envy your contry, and your patriotism. For all the aid the US has given to the world, they get little or no gratitude. Even my country clings to your coat-tails for protection. Then we speak ill of you behind your backs.

I don't see any other solution other than attacking Afganistan in order to begin the war on terrorism. How else do you fight a war with those who have no country and are internationally funded?

I would really hate to see what it would be like if Al Gore were president.
 
I am not under the delusion you're advocating torture, Blues; you're just thinking about it ... thinking is a good thing. :)

The trouble with it is although you may be able to get someone to say what you want, you can't get him to tell you anything you don't know -- there is no incentive for him to tell the truth. (By the way, so-called "lie detectors" don't work ... that's another whole rant in itself....)

I keep seeing people who want to answer terrorism with terrorism, respond to killing innocents by killing more innocents. That's another simple easy approach that would make the problem worse.

I see people on various forums who seem to think hunting down the terrorists and depriving them of their bases and funding will only provoke them to more violence ... as if they think the reason the terrorists don't make every day like Sept 11th is they're not angry enough to do all they can....

In fact our actions, combined with their propaganda about our actions, will produce a larger crop of volunteers for suicide missions -- there must be more such people available for recruiting in Afganistan now than before the bombing started, and some in other countries, too. But the limiting factor for what the enemy can do is not usually lack of unskilled volunteers.

Try "becoming the enemy" (Musashi) -- imagine you're a terrorist leader in Afganistan. Your training camp has been bombed to smithereens and your funds are drying up and you're not sure how long it'll be before the enemy gets you; you have to think about what you'll do if the friendly local government is overthrown in a little while, where you'll go, how you'll hide -- but in the meantime there are some locals looking for you wanting to volunteer to do whatever you tell them to do. No doubt you can find each other. Now what? You have some young fellows with great motivation but no particular skills, not even literacy ... they don't speak any language but Afgani or whatever they speak in Afganistan (sheesh, I'm amazed at how ignorant I am ... I'll have to do some studying). You have enemies to send your recruits against, but ... um ... none of them are right here handy to shoot at. What are you going to tell them to do?
 
Rust,

In War there are no civilians - only "The Enemy".

I agree with you. There is something very incongruent in our current policy. We should either stop the bombing, sit back, and task the UN with the task of bringing in Bin Laden and company, or we should take September 11th as an act of war and bomb and kill as many of the "enemy" as we have the bombs and means to destroy. These half hearted measures will prove much more expensive in the long run.

If the objective is to bring someone in for a trial then by all means we should put this on the UN. We have been paying and supporting them for decades, now it is time for the UN to action its member states to act against the criminal elements within their respective borders. The UN should have just publish a compiled list of suspected terrorist and ask each state to immediately deliver everyone on the list to face a world court. The UN could also have expelled and declared outlaw any state that refused to comply. This would have been the best way to go. Unfortunately, the UN, fully aware that failure to accomplish this clear and simple task would have proven the organization to be worthless, decided to take a safer path and do nothing. Perhaps it would have been best for the US to have demanded UN action; but, we have taken a different path, and this possibility is now moot.

We could also have carpet bomb Kabul during the first moments after the September 11th attack. If we had this would have all been over by now. The Taliban would have been cleaned entirely off the map, and right now the UN would have been in-country delivering much needed supplies to the rest of the population. But, even though we claim to be at war, we want to be nice. So we give the Taliban and Bin Ladens boys plenty of time to dig in, and now the fighting will go on. It might be years before this ends, and every day countless numbers of innocent people will die from abuse, starvation, or the scurge of war (mine field, desease, collateral damage).

Somehow I fail to see this as the humane way to go. To anyone concerned about the errant bomb - and it sounds very suspicious to me too - don't be. The only concern I have is that that single bomb wasn't immediately followed by a thousand others. Politics is about changing the hearts and minds of the people, war is simply about breaking their will to resist. Get that confused and we will be at war for a long time.

n2s
 
Originally posted by Cougar Allen
I am not under the delusion you're advocating torture, Blues; you're just thinking about it ... thinking is a good thing. :)...
The trouble with it is although you may be able to get someone to say what you want, you can't get him to tell you anything you don't know -- there is no incentive for him to tell the truth. (By the way, so-called "lie detectors" don't work ... that's another whole rant in itself....)...Try "becoming the enemy" (Musashi)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Cougar. I'll try to address some of your remarks which I've cut and pasted above.

1. I've conducted many successful interrogations with criminals of many varieties over the years and gotten them to tell me many factual things that they had no intention of disclosing. Your assumptions are therefore incorrect. The art of interrogation is not in getting a confession or statement for the sake of the statement, but in it its utility following the interrogation. The fact that you think a "suicidal" terrorist would have no reason to cooperate doesn't change the facts that it can be done and is done.

2. While I have little overall confidence in polygraph examinations (in general and rarely employ them) based upon much experience, they still are a useful tool, especially when you are aware of their limitations.

3. I'm familiar with Musashi's writings and theory, and if you go back and read one of my earlier replies, I mention the need to get into the enemy's mind and anticipate his actions. However, my reply was not based upon my reading of Musashi but upon my years of tracking criminals and their organizations...narcotics rings, arms smuggling to foreign terrorist and paramilitary groups, money laundering operations etc. Most criminal or outlaw organizations run on similar platforms and the same tools can be brought to bear against them.

Finally, I guess my point earlier was that after all these years I'm pretty good at knowing when someone is truthful with me and when they are not, and also when they are holding back part or all of a piece of information I am seeking. The bottom line is that I am prepared (in the current circumstances) to use whatever tools are necessary to do what needs to be done to protect the citizenry of the US and its allies. I realize that there may be a psychic, spiritual or legal price to pay and that will have to be weighed in any given circumstance when such a situation arises.

Theory and speculation is great, but in the moment, as I see it, cold, clinical action is called for. I'm sorry that I can't explain it any more clearly than that. Fortunately, I do it better on the job.
 
Originally posted by Cougar Allen
This isn't a war against Bin Laden or against his organization or even a war against all terrorists -- it's a war against terrorism. It's going to go on for years. We're going to win it, eventually. I see a parallel with the war against piracy in the 18th century.

(snipped for brevity)

Killing just one snake isn't enough, though. We have to eradicate all poisonous snakes from the playground. We're not going to go on retaliating against snakes when they kill people and forgetting about them until the next time -- we have had enough of that. We are going to end it.
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Cougar thanks for a most eloquent post. Somehow I missed it last night.
You have pin pointed many of my thoughts in what you have written and I feel that you're probably more correct than what you might even realize.

Originally posted by Rust
I'll settle for killing the guilty on two conditions (as though I have a choice):

1: We must accept the consequences of this action, understanding they they were predictable.

2: We must remember to ask who is truly guilty, preferably before pulling the trigger.
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Rust I really do wish I could agree with you on al the points you made both before and after this post and I'm with Al in asking you to continue posting your thoughts as they are important, I feel, in that you are performing the acts that perhaps our own concience's have forgotten.
When the day comes that we can't listen to all view points and take them under consideration then I feel that's the day when all will be lost and that we should give everything up and go back to grubbing an existence from the land and living in caves.
Not infereing that that's where the average Afghanistan is today.

Originally posted by Arvind
Yvsa,

I thought a lot about what you had said reg'd these people and torture. I also read what Blues said and in a way, it would make sense if the terrorist arrested had information about an impending attack whose prevention could save a good deal of lives. While I do not support the idea of torture in any sense as a form of retribution, I cannot honestly say that if something like this struck home and hurt my loved ones, that I would still hold this belief. In other words, if my loved ones were hurt, then I would definitely use any form of retribution that the darkest part of my mind could devise. In that sense, I think that while I do feel bad that I would think that way, on the other hand, I feel that this is what makes us all human. None of us are perfect by any stretch of the imagination. We try to work at it, but misguided acts like the attack throw our whole system of beliefs out of whack and makes us thirst for revenge.

In any case that's my .02 cents on it. This thread has proven to be interesting and it gives a lot of insight into how each person feels individually and as a community how we feel about what has happened. Also, it gave a good opportunity to blow off steam and get on with other important things such as what the next khukuri might be on our wish list.. ;)

Arvind
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"While I do not support the idea of torture in any sense as a form of retribution, I cannot honestly say that if something like this struck home and hurt my loved ones, that I would still hold this belief."

"In that sense, I think that while I do feel bad that I would think that way, on the other hand, I feel that this is what makes us all human."

Arvind I thank you for this. I know that it took a lot of inner meditation on your part to come to this realization.
I'm not always very good at putting my thoughts in words or print but it's my thought that I gave you a different way of looking at yourself.
And of course I agree completely with what you have written as I feel exactly the same way. :-)

The torture that I would/could inflict on a sub-human like Bin Laden wouldn't be a form of retribution. It would just simply be a way of possible deterrent to anyone else who thought about or put into action the things that he has....I would have no feelings either way of doing such a thing to someone who has resigned their membership in the human race.
There are certain things disgusting to any human that one has to be able to detach themselves from or they're not ready to perform such an act and then go home to what we Americans think of as normalcy and be/act the same as we were before we were sent on the mission.
We have trained some warriors that cannot detach themselves from the acts of war and they are the ones who can never go home again.
And it's my opinion that we owe these warriors a lot more than has ever been given them since we have stripped them of their humanity and rightful place in society.
Any nation can teach someone to be a warrior, but there's no nation that can restore a warrior that has stepped over to the dark side since we don't teach warriors the means to draw the dark side within themselves, accept that side of themselves, learn to love and nurture that side of themselves, and cosequently become a whole person that can go back to the home they had before they were sent to become a warrior.
In many ways we have became to scientific and dismiss the mysterious and unexplained which was the reason the older generations of ndns would do anything and everything possible to keep a potential young medicine man out of school.
One cannot always think logical thoughts and then focus on the Great Mystery to solve such dilemmas and the older generations were well aware of this fact.

Originally posted by Rust
N2S,

I think you'll find that Osama Bin Laden is already a global celebrity, and that there are already numerous protests worldwide against American actions. The primary difference, I feel, is that if Bin Laden were tried and punished before the world, the power of that statement would be greater. It would be an act of justice, not of war.

New can of worms - America has 'accidentally' dropped a 900Kg smart bomb on civilian housing. The oficial line is that this bomb was destined to destroy a helicopter, but that it veered wildly off-course.

Alright, what is more appropriate for the task of destroying a grounded helicopter; an ATG missile from a fighter jet, cluster bombs on a landing pad, or a 900Kg cruise missile? Personally, I'd say that any CEO who wastes a cruise missile on a single lightly-armoured mobile target like a helicopter has far too much time and resources on his hands.

If I were the suspicious sort, I might surmise that the US military suspected the housing complex of holding Al Quaida personell, dropped a big-arse bomb on it, and later denied that the complex had been their target when it turned out that they had slaughtered and maimed civilians.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Rust you're correct in saying that Bin Laden is already a world celebrity.
And I truly feel that what ever is done with Bin Laden will be the wrong thing, except for possibly what N2S says about just shooting the being and leaveing him in the desert.
I believe that no matter what is done that we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.
There's certainly no easy answers.........

And Rust I'm also a suspicious sort and wouldn't put it past our government or any other coalition government for doing just what you have said.
However I wouldn't believe the bastards when they said it was civilians that were killed and hurt. I would more suspect it was some of those demented people who believe they automatically go to heaven when killed in such a manner and that they volunteered to stay in those buildings so the taliban could make such a claim.
Perhaps I'm a bit more suspicious than yourself?;)

Blues wrote:
"To Yvsa, Wal, AC, and all my other NDN bro's here:

I hope when they open the "books" to let some of us non-skins in as blood brothers you'll allow me the honor of joining you. Your words and feelings resonate strongly in me. (But I think you guys already knew that.)

When I read this thread with all of the varying points of view from many different perspectives it makes me proud to be a part of this "cantina". This place is one of the very best reasons why liberty must be preserved.

I'm proud to be amongst all of you.
Click to expand...

Bro Walosi already addressed this in a good way, but I just wanted to reinforce his words.
You have long been one of us for only reasons the Great Mystery knows and I'm another who is very proud to have you along for the ride no matter which way the trail goes.
Just be extra careful in the times to come and when it comes your time to leave that service please think long and hard about going ahead with the plans you already have.
Security isn't everything you know. :)

And I was also glad to see that our Brother Walosi brought you back to the reality as we know it as well.

I'm with you Bro when you say that this Cantina is one of the very best reasons why liberty must be preserved. I'm so very proud to be a part of this group of men and ladies!!!!

Lots and lots of good words spoken here. Thankfully I'm one of the ones who are old enough to not have to live in the coming world all that much longer. After a man hit's 60 then 20-30 years isn't all that long.:)
I continue to pray that the young ones have what it takes to get the job done, no matter which way it ends, although I do agree with Cougar in that indeed this war will be done and won in the end.

Bruise wrote:
"I would really hate to see what it would be like if Al Gore were president."
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Bruise you make me say what I haven't said in years. "Amen!!!!" :)
(I commonly say, "Mitakue Oyasin" which is Lakota for, "We are all related.")
And don't try to pronounce those words on your own. There's only one chance in 12 million that you would get it right.;)
 
I just turned on the TV and caught the tail end of a report that was talking about 3 new cases of anthrax in Florida. How many does that make so far?

I may have to rethink my opinions and move a little more toward the reasoning of Yvsa and Walosi. This is getting ridiculous.

Randy
 
N2S,

I believe that 'war' is a very subjective thing, here. If there are no innocents in war, then those who died on September 11th were casualties of war, not victims of terrorism. This terrorism has been, after all, a war against America.

Can the deaths of Afghan civilians be considered any less an act of terrorism? Objectively, I do not believe so. Not if we fail to distinguish between civilian and combatant.

Yvsa,

Yep, you're more suspicious than me. If I were to follow your theory, then I might alter it thus; those who were victims of the 'accident' did not act as such willingly, but were victims of deliberate misinformation fed to American forces by unreliable sources, or were moved to a former Al Quaida hideout by the Taliban. Of the two, I suspect the former.
 
Rust,

I consider the Americans killed during Sept 11th to be casualties of war. The force majure language in many insurance contracts may have discourage the use of those words on 9/11. But, I have no doubt that we are at war.

n2s
 
Objectively, subjectively or collectively, these people were killed by an errant bomb. "A 900 pounder, to kill a helicopter?" After several nights of attacks, a remaining, flyable bird would be in a revetment, at least, if not in a bunker. This was Russian property, a while back, and they did build to protect their aircraft. As for conspiracy theories - We hit the Chinese Embassy in Slobovia (don't remember if it was Upper or Lower) by "mistake". As a three-star at Ft. Knox said after that incident,"F*** 'em if they can't take a joke".

We have already gone past the point of no return. When you pursue warfare, you must do warfare. There will be time for whining and soul-searching later. The best to be expected is that we continually try to avoid civilian targets, knowing that this is virtually impossible.
 
Originally posted by Walosi
We have already gone past the point of no return. When you pursue warfare, you must do warfare.
There will be time for whining and soul-searching later.
The best to be expected is that we continually try to avoid civilian targets, knowing that this is virtually impossible.
Click to expand...

And always has been so since the invention of gunpowder and will probably always be so.
As Uncle Bill has said in this thread or another, "War is hell and this is war."

There has also always been those on the side of war and those who protest against war.
And it's always been the grunt on the ground that has had to take the brunt of said war, another thing that has also always been and probably always be.

May the God(s) bless all of our warriors facing the brunt of this war whether on land, sea or air and those who support them, both behind the lines and at home.
 
There seems to be a bit more than the usual net confusion in this thread.... Blues, most of my last post was responding to other people (same for my first post). Some other people in this thread seem to be misunderstanding each other and under the impression there's more disagreement here than I think there actually is here ... that's not uncommon for the net, and when we discuss things we all feel so strongly about it often gets worse than this....

More later -- wait, one thing before I go. Apparently someone (wasn't me) suggested people motivated enough to go on suicide missions might be resistant to interrogation. Some of them might be, but they're more likely to babble their whole story to anyone who'll listen to them. Unfortunately they seldom know much; the enemy knows the weaknesses of their tools....
 
Walosi,

I'm a little offended that you should refer to the value I give to human life as "whining". Also, I question the wisdom of burying a mistake instead of learning from it.

The rest I have to say is maybe a little too acrid, so I'll snip here.
 
Rust,

No matter where this discussion goes please keep one thing in mind. Everyone on this site values human life. Some of us have come to terms and accepted that this is a war, some have not, some never will. Each of us is trying to find a way to minimize the damage caused by this crisis. Our individual calculus might be different, but we all start from the premise that human life has value. That is a significant distinction between us and the people who launched this crisis and endangered us and their fellow citizens for their own political gain.

n2s
 
It's late and I'm not likely to be very coherent, but I have to express some level of support for Rust. Not to say that I don't understand the disgust we all feel for the terrorists, but I do feel that we have to try to take the high road. We have to fight down our impulses to do the obvious. We have to distinguish ourselves from the terrorists. It would be easy to allow ourselves to become like them as we fight them, but if we do that, we lose. They may not "win" but we would lose. We would lose what makes us better than them. We can't afford to do that. It would seem very "satisfying" to unleash a blow of staggering proportions and wipe them out, along with the entire countries that are currently harboring them, but if we do that, we become worse than they are. There are civilians! Most of the population of Afganistan are simply trying to scratch out a bare living from some of the most hostile land in the world. They want nothing more than to feed their families and to be left alone. We cannot afford the luxury of reacting according to our feelings. If we don't use our heads and our dearly bought systems of justice, we will lose our civilization and our humanity.

I don't have any easy answers. I am a pacifist in that I believe in working for peace. I am not a knee-jerk "passivist" who refuses to consider any other options, but if we don't stop and think, we stand to give up more than the terrorists could ever take from us. If we treat this cause as a matter of "punishing" the terrorists, rather than a matter of eradicating a threat or a matter of criminal justice, then I think we're headed in the wrong way.

I have the same feelings that most everyone has expressed. The image of hanging them up in a slowly drying pigskin has a lot of appeal to me too. I don't like the thought of what I could become if I were to yield to those temptations. I want those b**t**ds dead. I want them safely out of circulation. I also want to keep the good parts of our civilization intact. There is a major conflict here. I wish I could say that I knew the right answers. I don't. I understand the point that turning them over to a court would stretch the case out for an excruciatingly long time and probably never reach a conclusion that would satisfy most of us and also create situations that related (and even unrelated) terrorists would attempt to exploit. I don't like that thought either. I don't want to make Osama and his thugs any more international celebrities than they are now.

This will take a long time. Osama and Al Qaeda are not the only targets. They are not even the main targets, IMHO. We need to root out them and all of their kind, without giving away the freedom and the civilization that they cannot take from us without our cooperation. They are not attacking us primarily because we (the US) support Israel. They are attacking us primarily because we offer a model of openness to the world. They cannot abide openness. They can thrive only in a world where they can control their populations. If we give up the freedoms and open society that they regard as the main threat, then we lose and they win.

I doubt that I said that at all well, but I hope I said it well enough that it communicates. Good night.

Paul
 
If I understand you correctly you made your point well enough.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We need to hit these particular flies not with a flyswatter, but with a sledgehammer to teach the others watching what happens when they cross the line we draw as to civilized behavior."Pour encourager des autres!"( pardon my French ). Same idea as hanging those sentenced to death publically outside the county courthouse a hundred years ago.

At the same time, we need to act in a restrained, judicious, and humanitarian fashion that sends an understandable, no, unmistakeable "message" to them what the consequences are, but does not at the same time debase out own principals.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I believe most everyone here can agree with the above. Right? Now all we have to do is figure out how far is far enough while at the same time not going too far. See, we're all in agreement here.

Now all we gotta do is agree on where the scales of justice balance. Good luck!

"And sure it is an awful spite, and aching to the heart,
For an Irishman to watch a fight, and not be taking part!" Robert Service
 
Rusty sez:
At the same time, we need to act in a restrained, judicious, and humanitarian fashion that sends an understandable, no, unmistakeable "message" to them what the consequences are, but does not at the same time debase out own principals.
Click to expand...

Exactly! It's just how to accomplish it all that's the hard part.

Paul
 
More good and thoughtful stuff and thanks. I like Howard's observation: All or us are wiser than any of us. It helps to toss this stuff around. I know it's helped me and I hope it does everybody.
 
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