Diy heat treat oven help

I DID warn ahead of time that nothing I would write would change any known design options. Some people just like the idea of understanding “why” something works. Others just want directions on “how to build the thing”. To each their own I guess. I hesitated before even trying, but ... drew asked, no one else really objected. Kind of like heat treating metal ... larren could (and does) spend a lot of time talking/teaching about phase transitions, latent heats of formation, and kinetics of those transitions ... where in practice you could (and mostly do) just get by with a recipe. If only a few people say “oh, that’s kind of cool to know” ... I am ok with that :-)
 
I was not directing it at you specifically. It was just a funny memory that this technical discussion brought to mind. I think most of us enjoy your explanations.
 
Lol ... no worries... I get it. I guess I am steeling myself to talk about radiation in the chamber.....
 
ok .... let me start taking a stab at talking about how heat is moving around inside the chamber of the oven. First though (I think this is pertinent, but maybe is just be nerding out.....) .... lets take a quick look at just what energy (which is the same as "heat") and Temperature are.

Energy ..... no one has the slightest idea just what it is. We know how to **describe** it and how it changes (i.e. "potential energy", "kinetic energy", "radiative energy" (photons)), but nobody really knows what it is. It is even weirder in that its existence/magnitude is relative. ride along next to a bullet traveling from a gun at the same speed as the bullet, and, for you, the bullet has no kinetic energy and can do no harm to you at all. If you are however, going at the same "speed" as the gun that fired the bullet, well to you that bullet has a LOT of kinetic energy. Things get even weirder from there .... so for now lets just say we do not know what energy is, except that it can move around and change how it appears.

Temperature, though, is actually very well defined. It is motion - pure and simple. For a gas, the faster (i.e. kinetic energy) the atoms that make up the gas fly around from place to place the "hotter" it is considered to be. add energy to the atoms, they increase their kinetic energy, and we say that it is "hotter" (how those velocities of the atoms change with temperature is described by the "Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution".

For solids and liquids, temperature is defined by the number of ways the atoms that make up the molecules can vibrate. For example, a simple molecule like oxygen or nitrogen has only two atoms. The ONLY way those atoms can vibrate is to go in-and-out relative to each other (like a simple spring expanding and contracting):
upload_2021-1-12_13-18-8.png
without going into detail, the MAGNITUDE of how big that vibration is is NOT continuous, but takes place in discrete steps (believe it or not .... it is this point that Einstein got his one and only Nobel prize for .... NOT for Relativity theory). so .... when the molecule contains NOT a lot of energy, it can only vibrate in-out in one small motion. Put more energy into it, and it can vibrate in-out to bigger and bigger extents (again, in discrete steps of changes) .... and as it gains the ability to vibrate to greater and greater extents, we say it is "hotter". How do we put energy into it? well, we can bump it physically (like swinging a baseball bat through the air), or (and this is the important part here) a photon of light can hit the molecule and be "absorbed" by the molecule ..... giving the energy the photon carried to the molecule and giving it more ways to vibrate. Again - this is important for us here .... the opposite can also happen: if the molecule is vibrating with higher and higher amounts of movement .... the very act of that motion causes photons to be given off by the molecule (this is exactly how a transmitting radio antenna transmits a signal). by giving off that photon, the molecule loses energy, and we say it has "cooled off" somewhat.

Other more complicated molecules have many more ways in which they can vibrate: a three-atom molecule like water has three ways it can vibrate. a simple symmetrical in-out of the two atoms on the "outside" of the molecule:
upload_2021-1-12_13-28-3.png
or another in-out motion, but this one being not symmetrical (more of a back-and-forth than an in-out motion)"
upload_2021-1-12_13-28-58.png
and finally a motion kind of like a "flexure":
upload_2021-1-12_13-29-37.png

Each of these motions are independent of each other, and it takes more and more energy to activate one and then the other, and then the last. For this reason, this more complicated molecule has a higher heat capacity than does a simple two atom molecule like oxygen or nitrogen. And also, like in the case of the two atom molecule, each of these independent motions can take place to lesser or greater extents - not continuously, but in discrete steps. And again, each of these motions can be activated by a photon (of light), and when more and more of these modes of vibration are activated .... we say the molecule has become "hotter". And also as with the two-atom molecule, once one of these more vigorous modes of vibration are activated (the thing gets hotter), then a photon will be given off just as an antenna gives off photons, and we say the thing has cooled off a little bit.

it is because of these photons given off by vibrating molecules in something that a "hot" material glows. When something is not all that hot (in the scheme of things), only a few of the available vibrations are activated (lower energy ones at that) .... and the things glows "red" (only taking up and giving off "infrared" and "red" photons). As the thing gets hotter, more and more different types of vibration are activated, and more and more photons of different energies are taken up and given off .... and we say the thing is "white hot" (white being a mixture of many different colors).

But the main point here behind how the inside of an oven works is that the photons flying around inside the oven do NOT just "bounce" off the walls - they are absorbed by the molecules in the walls, and then different photons are re-radiated off into the chamber. I know all that seems like a nerdy aside - but it really is not. Please let me know if it makes sense???

Nerdy aside 1: it is precisely because of these vibrations that occur at higher and higher amplitudes that materials expand when they get hotter.

nerdy aside 2: if we define temperature as the presence of vibrations like these - the temperature of "absolute" zero is NOT, however, the absence of all vibrations. There is always a single lowest energy vibration that can take place in a molecule - a "zero energy" vibration is not allowed to exist. so at "absolute zero" all the molecules in the material are vibrating in that single lowest energy mode. Absolute zero being -459 F.
 
Next snippet: with that background, we can take a closer look at what is happening inside the oven cavity. When the heating coil gets energized it gets "hot" because of the resistance to electrons moving through it. several things can happen - the air adjacent to the coil can heat up, AND because the coil gets hot (because of all the description given above), the coil can emit a photon. inside of the closed oven chamber (here lets assume the chamber is well closed with minimal gaps), that photon has no "option" (so to speak) except to hit the inside wall of the chamber in some location:
upload_2021-1-13_13-18-8.png

Because of all the discription given above, that photon will cause one molecule in the wall to get "hotter" (i.e. vibrate more). again, because of the description given above, that vibrating molecule will emit at least one photon. Because this is not a "bouncing" or "reflection" of the incoming photon, the direction the outgoing photon (or photons) take is totally random. Also, the "hotter" the receiving molecule is in the first place, the more photons will be emitted (even in the face of only one incoming photon). this looks something like the below:
upload_2021-1-13_13-22-41.png
each of those outgoing photons thus in turn hit another wall at some very different location on the inside of the oven chamber. Energy is NOT created in this manner - the incoming photon might be high energy, and the outgoing photons will be lower energy than the incoming photon, and some of the energy from the incoming photon goes to heating up deeper molecules in the wall, but the total energy remains unchanged. however, the hot heating element continues to pump more and more and more photons into the chamber, and they keep on being absorbed, readmitted over and over and over again. Because of this the total energy inside the oven flying around as photons continues to go up and up and up, AND that heat gets spread around, more or less uniformly, the inside of the chamber.

As things get hotter and hotter, more and more photons are emitted, and the amount of energy radiated away from the surface increases drastically. In fact, the rate of energy transfer by radiation of photons increases at temperature raised to the FOURTH power, and swamps all other modes of heat transfer. Because of this, at the temperatures we are talking about, we can essentially assume that all the heat transfer inside the oven is due to radiative transfer. When you put a blade inside the oven, it is NOT the hot air that heats the blade .... it is photons leaving the walls that hit the blade (and not other walls) that cause the blade to heat up. Likewise, because the photon does NOT hit another wall, the temperature of the inside of the oven is not maintained.

Likewise, when you open the door to the chamber, photons that would otherwise just be bouncing around inside the chamber instead go blasting out into the outside room (and against your face ... .which you undoubtedly feel when you open that door). because radiative heat transfer is so rapid and large in effect - a LOT of energy (heat) is lost in a very small time ... so you can not think about the walls "holding on to heat" while the door is open - they are very, very actively blasting it out into the outside room .... and so the amount of time you leave the door open should be as short as possible to minimize the ability of the chamber to recover to the setpoint.
 
So .... one final comment, and then I think I am done with this. What I was trying to do with that last post was to paint a picture that, in a lot of ways, the "temperature" inside the chamber of the oven is rather a superficial thing .... "superficial" in that it really only depends on the condition/heat contained in the very thin layer of the wall around the chamber. Especially during heat up, if you have a powerful heating element pumping a lot of photons into the walls, the thing will appear to heat up fast. BUT ... that is only the very inner layer of the walls being hot and radiating photons into the chamber. If you have heated that inner layer up fast, without time for heat to diffuse into the walls themselves (which will be slow if your bricks are good insulators (low thermal conductivity), then when you open the door the chamber will cool off a LOT, and it will have a longer recovery time to setpoint because there is just not enough heat in the walls around the chamber to radiate back into the chamber and heat it up faster.

So .... if you are doing a process where you do not care about recovery time after you have put a blade into the oven, then as soon as the thing hits setpoint, you are good to go to put your blade in. If, however, you ARE concerned about recovery time to setpoint, then you are better off waiting a fair amount of time after you heat to setpoint before you try putting a blade into the chamber. One other thing to consider (but here I am truly winging it) ..... is to place some somewhat larger mass of steel into the chamber that just sits there while you take blades in and out of the chamber. It will slow down the heating of the oven to setpoint, BUT will act as a heat "sump" that will help to retain heat (maybe better than the walls themselves) when you open the door. The downside of doing that though would be uneven heating of a blade put into the oven next to it. Maybe two pieces of metal .... one on each side of the oven?????? again, just thinking on my feet.......

Ok, I think I have done with stuff that might be worth trying to give insight about. I know for many of you this is likely stuff likely not really wanted to hear/think about. Please let me know if at least for some of you this perspective was worth thinking about????
 
So .... one final comment, and then I think I am done with this. What I was trying to do with that last post was to paint a picture that, in a lot of ways, the "temperature" inside the chamber of the oven is rather a superficial thing .... "superficial" in that it really only depends on the condition/heat contained in the very thin layer of the wall around the chamber. Especially during heat up, if you have a powerful heating element pumping a lot of photons into the walls, the thing will appear to heat up fast. BUT ... that is only the very inner layer of the walls being hot and radiating photons into the chamber. If you have heated that inner layer up fast, without time for heat to diffuse into the walls themselves (which will be slow if your bricks are good insulators (low thermal conductivity), then when you open the door the chamber will cool off a LOT, and it will have a longer recovery time to setpoint because there is just not enough heat in the walls around the chamber to radiate back into the chamber and heat it up faster.

So .... if you are doing a process where you do not care about recovery time after you have put a blade into the oven, then as soon as the thing hits setpoint, you are good to go to put your blade in. If, however, you ARE concerned about recovery time to setpoint, then you are better off waiting a fair amount of time after you heat to setpoint before you try putting a blade into the chamber. One other thing to consider (but here I am truly winging it) ..... is to place some somewhat larger mass of steel into the chamber that just sits there while you take blades in and out of the chamber. It will slow down the heating of the oven to setpoint, BUT will act as a heat "sump" that will help to retain heat (maybe better than the walls themselves) when you open the door. The downside of doing that though would be uneven heating of a blade put into the oven next to it. Maybe two pieces of metal .... one on each side of the oven?????? again, just thinking on my feet.......

Ok, I think I have done with stuff that might be worth trying to give insight about. I know for many of you this is likely stuff likely not really wanted to hear/think about. Please let me know if at least for some of you this perspective was worth thinking about????

Thanks for the additional insight. For me, I believe this is very much worth talking about and gives those of us building our ovens a good deal more insight on design considerations, or at the very least, helps us to understand what we might be seeing for a given design. Heck, even if you're just buying or retro-fitting an existing oven, these posts should help to steer the decision making process. Thanks again.
 
IT IS...ALIVE
Got my new coil, and wired a 220volt 30amp plug in shop
new coil is about 3,800 watts
just fired up oven and did test run
1000f = 2:30min
1575f = 15 min, put in blade hold for 10min
ramp to 1975f =10min

TZ
It's a satisfying thing aye. Like holy shit, this thing actually works!
 
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